Prescott for Allen

[GoBills808]

31 minutes ago, FireChans said:

That website includes playoff games and is irrelevant. Josh was not ninth.

 

PFR has the difference in drop% between the Bills and Dallas at 1%. Buffalo at 7, Dallas at 6. NFL median is around 4.9.

 

So it wasn’t as bad as the Bills, so it doesn’t matter? Cool.

I guarantee 90% of the folks espousing on Dak watched two or less Dallas games this year. 

 

The dude with 14 career GWD’s in 3 years just doesn’t show composure or lead well. Lol sure.

I watched him plenty. Doesn’t wash, go check Bears game again

 

If he was as great as ^^^he’d be locked up already

 

 

[FireChans]

15 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

Ignoring what I wrote above about drops per attempts.  Even cooler.

 

You're right, Josh wasn't 9th.  The NFL.com re-designed their website and it's crap for stuff like that now.  He was actually 6th. 

Yeah, you showed Dak’s receivers didn’t drop as many. Does that mean it doesn’t matter?

 

Yeah that sportchart website sucks. Who thought aggregating playoff and regular season stats was a good idea?

6 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

I watched him plenty. Doesn’t wash, go check Bears game again

 

If he was as great as ^^^he’d be locked up already

 

 

Lol, the Cowboys offered him $35M per year. Don’t worry.

[Doc]

1 minute ago, FireChans said:

Yeah, you showed Dak’s receivers didn’t drop as many. Does that mean it doesn’t matter?

 

Yeah that sportchart website sucks. Who thought aggregating playoff and regular season stats was a good idea?

 

No, it matters.  But I still don't see him as being worth $35M/year. 

 

No idea.  Again the NFL f'd up their website and it's a real pain to get stats there.

[GunnerBill]

1 hour ago, Shaw66 said:

I like what you say about Tyrod.   That's exactly right.   HIs first year he put up really nice numbers, second year not bad, but he always looked one-domensional somehow.  

 

I'm not a Dak fan.   My eye test tells me he doesn't have the intangibles.   He doesn't seem to lead very well.   He doesn't improvise well.   He throws better than I thought, and he runs nicely, but I don't think he's the full package.  

 

You don't think Dak has intangibles????? 

 

Wow. 

 

It is the thing that has always stood out about him to me. 

1 hour ago, GoBills808 said:

Dak had drops no question, not to the extent Allen did but they certainly mattere

 

Yep. And I for one have never ever disputed Allen has had significant drops. The top 4 were way out in front of the rest of the league in that category and Dak was in that 4. 

55 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

The point is that Prescott had a better supporting cast around him.  Not to mention he also threw the ball 135 more times than Josh.  Taking the drop stats into account, Josh's receivers dropped 1 pass per 17.7 attempts versus 24.8 for Prescott.

 

I am not disputing Josh's drops. Never have. But people who refer to them frequently should not dispute that Prescott's "better supporting cast" underperformed in 2019 way more than Dak did. 

Edited June 2, 2020 by GunnerBill

[JESSEFEFFER]

I have have not watched much of the Cowboys.  For almost 5 decades we have had them forced upon us, the NFL viewing public, whether they were relevant or not.  The networks need stars to promote to the public so I have always thought that Cowboy players benefited from the over hype necessary to justify their national profile.  Somehow, I think it starts with their owner and his ego and filters its way down.  For those that do not believe in the importance of culture to winning, I cite the Cowboys as evidence of what it means to be "talented" but not perform well in big moments.  Something is wrong with their culture.  I doubt it was all on Jason Garrett and I doubt Mike McCarthy has the goods to fix it.

 

As for Dak, some anecdotal points about their performance last year.

 

They were 1 and 3 vs. the AFC East.

He threw for 463 yards against GB and they lost.

He threw for 355 vs. the Bills and only had 7 on the board with 4:06 to go in the game.

The Cowboys scored only 10 points against NO and 9 vs. NE and 9 @ Phi in a game to win the division.  

He plays in a climate controlled, retractable roof stadium.  Passing stats come much easier there.

 

Something is lacking in that team and while Dak may not be to blame in any way, he appears to me to be less of a winner and more of a stat chaser.  He has started 64 of 64 possible which is notable and he might get much better results on a team like the Bills but I would not care to find out.  Trust the process and see what Josh can produce this year.  I am 100% ok with that.   

[Doc]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

I am not disputing Josh's drops. Never have. But people who refer to them frequently should not dispute that Prescott's "better supporting cast" underperformed in 2019 way more than Dak did. 

 

Fair enough.

[Mister Defense]

No way, and I bet that after this upcoming year almost no GM would even consider this.

 

Prescott seems to need everything  on his team/offense to go almost perfectly for him to win (usually), while Allen does not, can help his team overcome obstacles, and lead them to victories despite the obstacles they face in the game.  And Allen is going to get better and better at this as his knowledge and skills improve.

 

While the devil may be in the details of why Prescott declined over 35 million dollars a year, his lack of self awareness, and  greed, also makes this a no brainer--Allen will sign for less than he is worth,  and I think we will see this clearly in his 2nd contract, as he won't want to sacrifice his team, his teammates. Mark my words on that.  I know that this does not happen, but I think Allen will be the exception.

 

Though statistically you can make the argument that Prescott is the clear choice, watching the games provides a much different set of data.  Allen, all of the way. 

 

I hope the Cowboys let Prescott leave. Andy Dalton gives them a much better chance of  taking the next step than Prescott does.

[FireChans]

3 hours ago, Mister Defense said:

No way, and I bet that after this upcoming year almost no GM would even consider this.

 

Prescott seems to need everything  on his team/offense to go almost perfectly for him to win (usually), while Allen does not, can help his team overcome obstacles, and lead them to victories despite the obstacles they face in the game.  And Allen is going to get better and better at this as his knowledge and skills improve.

 

While the devil may be in the details of why Prescott declined over 35 million dollars a year, his lack of self awareness, and  greed, also makes this a no brainer--Allen will sign for less than he is worth,  and I think we will see this clearly in his 2nd contract, as he won't want to sacrifice his team, his teammates. Mark my words on that.  I know that this does not happen, but I think Allen will be the exception.

 

Though statistically you can make the argument that Prescott is the clear choice, watching the games provides a much different set of data.  Allen, all of the way. 

 

I hope the Cowboys let Prescott leave. Andy Dalton gives them a much better chance of  taking the next step than Prescott does.

Allen loves Chippewa!

 

@GunnerBill we got a live one!

 

also a big hearty LOL to the bolded. Andy Dalton has always DOMINATED in the postseason. He’s like Brady combined with Montana. Everyone knows this.

Edited June 3, 2020 by FireChans

[GunnerBill]

9 hours ago, JESSEFEFFER said:

 

Something is lacking in that team and while Dak may not be to blame in any way, he appears to me to be less of a winner and more of a stat chaser. 

 

Dak was 25-12 as a starter in college in the SEC.

Dak is 41-26 (including playoffs) in the NFL. 

 

For someone who is less of a winner he sure seems to do a lot of winning.

[timekills17]

10 hours ago, FireChans said:

That website includes playoff games and is irrelevant. Josh was not ninth.

 

PFR has the difference in drop% between the Bills and Dallas at 1%. Buffalo at 7, Dallas at 6. NFL median is around 4.9.

 

So it wasn’t as bad as the Bills, so it doesn’t matter? Cool.

I guarantee 90% of the folks espousing on Dak watched two or less Dallas games this year. 

 

The dude with 14 career GWD’s in 3 years just doesn’t show composure or lead well. Lol sure.

 

I wonder what their reaction is when people say JA is a bad quarterback because of the Houston playoff game.

Even if they only watched ONE Dallas game last year and it was the Bills-Dallas game, I'm not sure how you say Dak is a mediocre QB given his stats against the Bills, arguably the best passing defense in the NFL. His team didn't win, and he had a couple bad plays at the end trying to force a win. But most of the game he was terrific. Kind of like a QB and game I remember in the playoffs against Houston.

 

All that said, in a vacuum do I think Dak is a better QB than JA right now talking purely on field ability? Yes. Do I think the Bills go further THIS year with Dak than JA - actually I can't definitively say yes to that, but put a gun to my head and I'd probably choose Dak right now to win one game. Do I trade JA for Dak at this point in their careers, my expected trajectory for both, and impact to team performance? Hell no.

[GunnerBill]

1 minute ago, timekills17 said:

 

I wonder what their reaction is when people say JA is a bad quarterback because of the Houston playoff game.

Even if they only watched ONE Dallas game last year and it was the Bills-Dallas game, I'm not sure how you say Dak is a mediocre QB given his stats against the Bills, arguably the best passing defense in the NFL. His team didn't win, and he had a couple bad plays at the end trying to force a win. But most of the game he was terrific. Kind of like a QB and game I remember in the playoffs against Houston.

 

All that said, in a vacuum do I think Dak is a better QB than JA right now talking purely on field ability? Yes. Do I think the Bills go further THIS year with Dak than JA - actually I can't definitively say yes to that, but put a gun to my head and I'd probably choose Dak right now to win one game. Do I trade JA for Dak at this point in their careers, my expected trajectory for both, and impact to team performance? Hell no.

 

This is a very fair and balanced post. I think it is perfectly fair to say I wouldn't trade Josh for Dak because I prefer Josh's ceiling while still recognising Dak is a darn good Quarterback. 

[BritBill]

It would be interesting what the comments would be should Dallas let Prescott walk and he carries on waltzing all the way to Foxborough. 

 

I suspect all of a sudden there would be some soiling of the undergarments. 

[Doc Brown]

55 minutes ago, BritBill said:

It would be interesting what the comments would be should Dallas let Prescott walk and he carries on waltzing all the way to Foxborough. 

 

I suspect all of a sudden there would be some soiling of the undergarments. 

The last thing the Pats would do would give a QB a market setting contract.  Even if he did I'd be okay with it because he's no 26 year old Brady.

[Doc]

3 hours ago, Doc Brown said:

The last thing the Pats would do would give a QB a market setting contract.  Even if he did I'd be okay with it because he's no 26 year old Brady.

 

This.  And he won't have the weapons he has in Dallas.

[JESSEFEFFER]

6 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Dak was 25-12 as a starter in college in the SEC.

Dak is 41-26 (including playoffs) in the NFL. 

 

For someone who is less of a winner he sure seems to do a lot of winning.

This is deja vu all over again.  He is +15 for his NFL career and 9 of that is from 2016.  So, that leaves +6 for the last 3 seasons.  The leader of the over hyped Cowboys with mostly underwhelming results. 

 

There are other QBs like him that did get paid for their stats but whose teams have never amounted to much.  Once they get the big money it's not likely team results are going to improve with the added roster restrictions.

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

6 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

This is a very fair and balanced post. I think it is perfectly fair to say I wouldn't trade Josh for Dak because I prefer Josh's ceiling while still recognising Dak is a darn good Quarterback. 

 

Many of us feel this way. That's why when considering age, contract and the entire package, for a lot of us the list of players we would trade Allen for is only 2-5 players long.

 

I'm willing to pass on guys proven to be better now Like Watson, Jackson and Dak for holding onto the upside Allen has. 

[GunnerBill]

16 minutes ago, JESSEFEFFER said:

This is deja vu all over again.  He is +15 for his NFL career and 9 of that is from 2016.  So, that leaves +6 for the last 3 seasons.  The leader of the over hyped Cowboys with mostly underwhelming results. 

 

There are other QBs like him that did get paid for their stats but whose teams have never amounted to much.  Once they get the big money it's not likely team results are going to improve with the added roster restrictions.

 

Or if you take out this last season he is +15 for the other 3 years. 

 

See anyone can cherry pick.

8 minutes ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

 

Many of us feel this way. That's why when considering age, contract and the entire package, for a lot of us the list of players we would trade Allen for is only 2-5 players long.

 

I'm willing to pass on guys proven to be better now Like Watson, Jackson and Dak for holding onto the upside Allen has. 

 

The only of those I disagree with is Watson. The three definites for me are Mahomes, Wilson and Watson. I can see it both ways for Jackson and Prescott. 

 

Personally, even as someone who is considerably higher on Dak than most, I wouldn't swap Josh for him at this point. 

[BritBill]

Yep, I wouldn't be pulling the trigger on the trade until we know what we have with Allen for sure. 

 

Ask again this time next year. We'll have a better idea.

[Billl]

37 minutes ago, JESSEFEFFER said:

This is deja vu all over again.  He is +15 for his NFL career and 9 of that is from 2016.  So, that leaves +6 for the last 3 seasons.  The leader of the over hyped Cowboys with mostly underwhelming results. 

 

There are other QBs like him that did get paid for their stats but whose teams have never amounted to much.  Once they get the big money it's not likely team results are going to improve with the added roster restrictions.

So if you take away the best season of his 4 year career, he’s only 6 games above .500...

 

Posters here will twist themselves into pretzels to explain why Allen is way better than his stats suggest while insisting that every other QB is far worse than their numbers suggest.  Dak led his team to 119 more points than Allen.  If a team can’t make the postseason when scoring 113 points more than their opponents, that’s horrendous coaching.  TBD would throw a parade if Allen had a season anywhere near as productive as what Dak just had, and Dak is still only 26.

[JESSEFEFFER]

34 minutes ago, Billl said:

So if you take away the best season of his 4 year career, he’s only 6 games above .500...

 

Posters here will twist themselves into pretzels to explain why Allen is way better than his stats suggest while insisting that every other QB is far worse than their numbers suggest.  Dak led his team to 119 more points than Allen.  If a team can’t make the postseason when scoring 113 points more than their opponents, that’s horrendous coaching.  TBD would throw a parade if Allen had a season anywhere near as productive as what Dak just had, and Dak is still only 26.

Against the NFC East the Cowboys were +97.   Add the Dolphins and it's +122 and a 6 and 1 record.  Blowout the struggling teams and go 2 and 7 against the rest of the schedule.  Many of the losses where the offense fell flat, NE, NO, Bills, @ Phi.   

 

I am more anti Cowboys than anti Dak.  Many points in my post are open to the possibility that Dak could be more successful outside their team culture. 

 

The 2019 Cowboy offense was all about racking up points and stats against bad teams and failing against good ones.