The Airplane Seat Incident.

[row_33]

Just now, Gugny said:

 

As your luck would have it, our very own @Chandler#81 is a mastur at fixing cracked Apple product screens!

 

did you intend to spell master that way?

 

[AlCowlingsTaxiService]

6 hours ago, plenzmd1 said:

I flew Alligient to Nashville, and they have these newfangled really thin seats...and i loved em! Gave you more legroom. I loved that flight. Would 100% fly them again!

 

And i get free booze too..i bring enough airplane bottles on to sink a ship!

 

And next time, make sure you go drinking with me! 20 somethin hot bartenders with Daddy Issues all dig me, never wait for a drink! Might be that i tip big too, unlike those those 3 cheap bastards you mention above 

Allegiance .... thin maintenance staff to go along with the thin seats

[plenzmd1]

3 minutes ago, AlCowlingsTaxiService said:

Allegiance .... thin maintenance staff to go along with the thin seats

by the sounds of it, safe than southwest!

[AlCowlingsTaxiService]

Just now, plenzmd1 said:

by the sounds of it, safe than southwest!

I used to fly them exclusively into Sanford Florida .... numerous delays due to them changing planes,  and in one instance, we boarded/deplaned three times on different aircraft before they canceled the flight.  Following that, 60 Minutes did a feature on their maintenance issues. Gotta admit though, love non stop and smaller destination airports 

[Kirby Jackson]

3 hours ago, Simon said:

Nobody "likes" standing in a line either but they don't assume that everybody else in the line is a a terrible person because of it.

And if a pretty girl in a low cut blouse reclined in front of you I bet your definition of like would change with startling speed. 

I'm just saying that assuming that every other person thinks exactly like you do inevitably leads to problems all around.

 

Shock is probably too strong a word, but I've definitely been surprised to see how fired up people are about it.

I don't have to travel for work and I like to drive across the US at least once every year so I am rarely even on planes. It's probably been 10 years since I flew and having the seat reclined in front of me didn't seem like an exceptionally heavy burden to bear at that time; maybe it's different now.

I guess I sort of assumed it was another manifestation of a culture where folks seem to be looking for reasons to be an aggrieved victim. Or maybe seating space has shrunk so much as airlines worship at the altar of the almighty dollar that folks are too worried about the effects to bother addressing the cause.

Either way, we are pretty much ###### as a culture and a country. 

 

It’s a little bit of all of that honestly. The space has shrunk, the fees go up, security takes forever, etc... The whole experience of flying is pretty terrible. In general people look at it as a necessary evil. Whenever people do things to worsen that experience (ie reclining seats, not moving for families to be together, bringing extra carry ons, smelly food, farting, deplaning early, etc...) people just don’t have patience for it. “The experience already sucks for everyone, don’t be an a hole and make it worse.” That’s kind of my take on it anyways. It’s like baseball and there’s certain “unwritten rules” that just kind of keep it at “bad experience” instead of “worst experience ever.”

[sherpa]

And you get what you pay for.

 

The only thing that matters regarding domestic flights is price.

Countless attempts have been made to offer more comfort, food, schedule reliability, convenience etc., and it doesn't matter.

US passengers, and to an even greater extent, those of other countries, vote with their choices, and it is nothing other than price.

 

Tons of empirical data to back that up, as well as tens of millions spent and lost offering other options.

 

 

[Just Jack]

6 hours ago, Bandito said:

I don’t get the people with paper boarding passes. Just use the boarding pass on the app. It’s mind blowing to see so many paper boarding passes these days 

 

I prefer the paper, and use the app as a backup, or if my flights change after checking in. 

 

As for deplaning, if I have a window seat and plenty of time, I'll let most of the plane get off before I even get out of my seat. 

 

Another thing I've been doing, since my carry on is a backpack, is I'll put it in the overhead on the opposite side of the aisle.  This way when I get out of my row, all I need to do is reach across and grab my pack. No need to stand, turn around, and get my pack. Saves time. 

Edited February 20, 2020 by Just Jack

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

4 hours ago, Kirby Jackson said:

It’s a little bit of all of that honestly. The space has shrunk, the fees go up, security takes forever, etc... The whole experience of flying is pretty terrible. In general people look at it as a necessary evil. Whenever people do things to worsen that experience (ie reclining seats, not moving for families to be together, bringing extra carry ons, smelly food, farting, deplaning early, etc...) people just don’t have patience for it. “The experience already sucks for everyone, don’t be an a hole and make it worse.” That’s kind of my take on it anyways. It’s like baseball and there’s certain “unwritten rules” that just kind of keep it at “bad experience” instead of “worst experience ever.”

I've flown hundreds of times and it has never occurred to me that someone would be Tommy DiSimone in Goodfellas enraged that I pressed a button and slid the seat back. I’ve never thought twice about the person in front of me sliding his/her seat back and to be completely honest, I don’t actually see where it changes much of my space if any.  I’m not 6’+ tall, and sometimes feel bad for folks who have to squeeze in these seats, but unless they’re entering into Downward Dog I don’t really see it as an issue. By nature I’m pretty courteous, so I’d never slam a seat back to &$#@ up someone’s laptop, but I just don’t see it. 
 

I like to fly, and while it has its challenges I’m perpetually amazed and grateful to live in a time I can start the day in the cold northeast and end up in Sunny Fla by lunchtime, all for under a couple hundred bucks. 
 

 

[Kirby Jackson]

1 hour ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said:

I've flown hundreds of times and it has never occurred to me that someone would be Tommy DiSimone in Goodfellas enraged that I pressed a button and slid the seat back. I’ve never thought twice about the person in front of me sliding his/her seat back and to be completely honest, I don’t actually see where it changes much of my space if any.  I’m not 6’+ tall, and sometimes feel bad for folks who have to squeeze in these seats, but unless they’re entering into Downward Dog I don’t really see it as an issue. By nature I’m pretty courteous, so I’d never slam a seat back to &$#@ up someone’s laptop, but I just don’t see it. 
 

I like to fly, and while it has its challenges I’m perpetually amazed and grateful to live in a time I can start the day in the cold northeast and end up in Sunny Fla by lunchtime, all for under a couple hundred bucks. 
 

 

It feels like this controversy has opened a lot of people’s eyes. At least half of the country though sided with the guy that punched the back of a seat for hours!! That’s how “anti-seat recliner” they were. That guy was clearly being a petty jerk. There was SO much empathy though coming from the, “anti-seat recliner” crew that they found it to be less offensive than the recline! 
 

Maybe it really does come down to your appreciation of the experience though. You make an interesting point. If you like to fly and appreciate the ability to get somewhere quickly and affordably you probably have a good deal of patience with it.
 

I already called it a “necessary evil” so it’s the opposite end of the spectrum for me. I find it miserable. I probably fly around 60 flights a year (eg: MSY-Midway, Midway to Buffalo, Buffalo to Midway, Midway to MSY counting as 4). Being in New Orleans I pretty much always have to transfer (although the New MSY is a fantastic airport). From the time I leave my house to get to the airport, wait in line, wait on security, wait to board the flight, etc...I’m just miserable. The last thing that I want is someone making it more miserable. I don’t ever view it as a good thing even when I’m heading on vacation. I just can’t wait to get off the plane (and hopefully not have to wait a ridiculous amount of time for my bags) :).

[plenzmd1]

14 hours ago, sherpa said:

And you get what you pay for.

 

The only thing that matters regarding domestic flights is price.

Countless attempts have been made to offer more comfort, food, schedule reliability, convenience etc., and it doesn't matter.

US passengers, and to an even greater extent, those of other countries, vote with their choices, and it is nothing other than price.

 

Tons of empirical data to back that up, as well as tens of millions spent and lost offering other options.

 

 

I agree when you are talking about personal travel, but damn those devalued miles and status drives business travel. 

[GaryPinC]

17 hours ago, JoeF said:

I had the tray table down and was working on the Macbook on the tray table.  I was writing so was concentrating...When the woman reclined the screen got wedged under the tray table hook and the upper edge of her seat/the tray table insert came down on the screen, bent it and cracked the glass...I guess i used the word "crushed" to liberally ? but that's what happened.  The woman wasn't large and didn't recline with huge force -- it just happened....I had a glass protector so it didn't shatter.

 

I am really cautious now-- ready to close the lid on the Macbook whenever the person in front of me even adjusts in their seat.

 

 

 

Thanks, I was having trouble picturing it because laptops are pretty flexible.  Seems pretty unlucky.  But I will make sure I ask the person behind me from now on!

[GaryPinC]

18 hours ago, plenzmd1 said:

Wow, $11K! Have never had an issue. Sounds like the 1 woman who did was told "knock it off" and she kept drinking!

 

 

Yeah, I imagine most flight crews will warn first as most people don't fully know the rules.  From FAA rules, it seems Jet Blue is right on point, rules don't say the airline has to provide the alcohol, just they have to serve it and any alcohol above 24% is considered a hazardous chemical,  which I'm sure entails other rules.

[sherpa]

20 minutes ago, GaryPinC said:

..... and any alcohol above 24% is considered a hazardous chemical,  which I'm sure entails other rules.

 

Yes. 

Because it is flammable, so it can't be in the cabin.

[GaryPinC]

16 minutes ago, sherpa said:

 

Yes. 

Because it is flammable, so it can't be in the cabin.

Up to 70% alcohol can be with you in carry-on in 3.4 oz containers

[GaryPinC]

16 hours ago, sherpa said:

And you get what you pay for.

 

The only thing that matters regarding domestic flights is price.

Countless attempts have been made to offer more comfort, food, schedule reliability, convenience etc., and it doesn't matter.

US passengers, and to an even greater extent, those of other countries, vote with their choices, and it is nothing other than price.

 

Tons of empirical data to back that up, as well as tens of millions spent and lost offering other options.

 

 

This statement means nothing.  I will always pay some extra money to take a direct flight instead of one or more layovers.   But I have my limits on how much more.

 

What attempts at comfort, food, convenience have the airlines attempted that you feel are reasonably priced?  Because I don't see too many.  You can argue price but it's about value.  That's what the airlines have failed at.

 

One example I have seen that has value is wifi for long flights.  Definitely a solid number of people pay for this  and will until they make it too expensive.

[noacls]

I really can't believe this is a thing. When did people get so soft. 

[BarleyNY]

On 2/18/2020 at 4:55 PM, shrader said:

I witnessed probably the rudest moment of seat etiquette the last time I flew.  The second he sat down, this 20-something kid in the aisle across from me put his knees up on the back of the seat, at around his chest level, and gave a good push.  Over the course of the flight (fortunately a short one) he continued to slouch further and further down.  By the end of the flight, his ass was completely off the end of his seat.  Meanwhile, this super timid college aged girl was in front of him, was clearly frustrated, but wouldn't say anything.  Meanwhile, the flight attendant walked by several times too and didn't bother to do anything.

 

I'm probably an ass for not saying anything, but I wasn't going to cause a scene.

I used to travel a lot for work.  I never minded the person in front of me reclining.  I reclined sometimes myself - especially if they did.  I always thought that it is dumb to have the ability to recline if it was going to be seen as a problem.  I recently flew on Spirit and those seats did not recline.

 

Oh the other hand, I hope there’s a special place in hell for competent adults who push against the backs of other seats with their legs, bang on the seats in front of them, repeatedly drop their tray open and/or stick their shoeless feet through the spaces between or over the seats.  F those MFers. 

[sherpa]

47 minutes ago, GaryPinC said:

This statement means nothing.  I will always pay some extra money to take a direct flight instead of one or more layovers.   But I have my limits on how much more.

 

What attempts at comfort, food, convenience have the airlines attempted that you feel are reasonably priced?  Because I don't see too many.  You can argue price but it's about value.  That's what the airlines have failed at.

 

One example I have seen that has value is wifi for long flights.  Definitely a solid number of people pay for this  and will until they make it too expensive.

 

Means nothing?

 

The airlines have offered "comfort, food, convenience," and a host of other things that cost money.

 

Know what?

Passengers won't pay for it, proven over and over again, and your "reasonably priced" variable is something I doubt you have any idea of the underlying cost

I guarantee you  have no idea what it costs to offer various meals, and WIFI.

WIFI on an aluminum tube with limited space and significant cost to affix anything to the outside fuselage travelling at 600 mph is a different issue than sitting in your living room.

I also guarantee you have no idea what it costs to provide schedule reliability in bad weather.

Here's some information.

Airline crews are "legal" to certain weather minimums. Aircraft and those crews are required to be certified for the lower minimums.

That is extremely expensive.

Low cost airlines don't have that capability, so they simply cancel, but people buy those tickets every day betting that won't happen, because it usually doesn't.

Still, that reliability costs a lot of money.

Happens a lot.

 

Here's a tip.

A CEO of a major US airline was on CNBC last year. This exact discussion was held.

Airlines pay extreme attention to yield management issues.

Yield management is the industry term for how much to charge for a seat, and these things are done millions of times per day to achieve a balance.

His statement was that a $1 change in price in an economy ticket moves 20% of the market.

Get that? If the price for a seat changes by $1, 20% of the people will move to save the dollar.

Think those people are willing to pay for increased leg room in coach?

If so, you would be among a couple of airline CEO's who have been removed for making that bet, because they were wrong.

 

All of this has been offered before, at the cost of tens of millions, and it has always proved that price is what moves the seats in coach.

Edited February 20, 2020 by sherpa

[GaryPinC]

2 hours ago, sherpa said:

 

Means nothing?

 

The airlines have offered "comfort, food, convenience," and a host of other things that cost money.

 

Know what?

Passengers won't pay for it, proven over and over again, and your "reasonably priced" variable is something I doubt you have any idea of the underlying cost

I guarantee you  have no idea what it costs to offer various meals, and WIFI.

WIFI on an aluminum tube with limited space and significant cost to affix anything to the outside fuselage travelling at 600 mph is a different issue than sitting in your living room.

I also guarantee you have no idea what it costs to provide schedule reliability in bad weather.

Here's some information.

Airline crews are "legal" to certain weather minimums. Aircraft and those crews are required to be certified for the lower minimums.

That is extremely expensive.

Low cost airlines don't have that capability, so they simply cancel, but people buy those tickets every day betting that won't happen, because it usually doesn't.

Still, that reliability costs a lot of money.

Happens a lot.

 

Here's a tip.

A CEO of a major US airline was on CNBC last year. This exact discussion was held.

Airlines pay extreme attention to yield management issues.

Yield management is the industry term for how much to charge for a seat, and these things are done millions of times per day to achieve a balance.

His statement was that a $1 change in price in an economy ticket moves 20% of the market.

Get that? If the price for a seat changes by $1, 20% of the people will move to save the dollar.

Think those people are willing to pay for increased leg room in coach?

If so, you would be among a couple of airline CEO's who have been removed for making that bet, because they were wrong.

 

All of this has been offered before, at the cost of tens of millions, and it has always proved that price is what moves the seats in coach.

Again, you are shortsighted with your definition of price and value.  Value certainly has to align for both the airlines and the consumer, price will always be a large factor in deciding value.

 

If a seat changes by $1 and 20% of people move, you seem to be ignoring the other 80%. 

If an airline ticket costs $1 extra dollar for extra legroom and that is properly advertised, taller people would snap those tickets up.  I certainly would.  

If the extra legroom costs, $20,$30,$40 or more, less people will be interested at each higher price bracket.  Would I be willing to pay $20 extra legroom from Cleveland to Chicago for a 45 minute flight?  No.  Would I be willing to pay it for Cleveland to LA?  Absolutely.  It's about the value.

 

And let's be real.  The airlines I've researched to buy tickets from all charge different prices for window/aisle/middle seat.  It never used to be like that.  How is that working out?  Seems to be doing ok...

 

You are correct, I don't know the cost of WIFI and meals and the breakdown of everything.  I just know that the airline has to offer a convenience at a price people find reasonable for them to take advantage.  If CEO's misjudge the value, well, then they failed at their job.  I'm not someone who's against the airlines, I'm just calling it as I see it as a consumer.

 

And yes, part of the consumer market is all about lowest dollar.  Just like with gasoline for the car, it's kind of a contest.  Spirit Airlines is the perfect example of this.  They're all about the bait and switch.  Lowest ticket prices until you actually go through their reservation nickel-and-diming process then it costs as much or more than the major carriers, and they bet you're too lazy to double check or restart the reservation process somewhere else.  And you can brag to people the original "bargain" price.

 

I definitely see people take advantage of the WIFI and I did it once on a long flight because of my kids.  The value was there for me, hopefully it is for the airlines as well to continue offering it.

 

[sherpa]

42 minutes ago, GaryPinC said:

Again, you are shortsighted with your definition of price and value.  Value certainly has to align for both the airlines and the consumer, price will always be a large factor in deciding value.

 

If a seat changes by $1 and 20% of people move, you seem to be ignoring the other 80%. 

If an airline ticket costs $1 extra dollar for extra legroom and that is properly advertised, taller people would snap those tickets up.  I certainly would.  

If the extra legroom costs, $20,$30,$40 or more, less people will be interested at each higher price bracket.  Would I be willing to pay $20 extra legroom from Cleveland to Chicago for a 45 minute flight?  No.  Would I be willing to pay it for Cleveland to LA?  Absolutely.  It's about the value.

 

 

I'm shortsighted?

 

Do you think, for a second, that this hasn't been tried and the market has voted?

Everyday, all the time.

 

By the way, as I noted in my reply to you initially, you may not be familiar with this issue.

In the first case, you mentioned value regarding a number of options, and I mentioned that you may not be aware of the cost of these things.

 

In your most recent, you state something regarding how you might pay more for legroom on trips of lengthier duration, but not on shorter ones.

Did you think about this before you made that claim?

Once an airplane is configured, and they are as "fleets," not individually, which would be insanely idiotic and expensive, they are in the system.

Once in the system, they operate on all routes.

 

The people who decide these things do so on market results, and they are not stupid.