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Buffalo Timmy

Reasons I think Josh is more viable long term than Jackson

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1 minute ago, Buffalo Timmy said:

You ask a good question about why I discredit a dude who just justifiably won MVP. I think his unreal athleticism will slip quickly- and when he can not run like Barry it will cause him to have issues. I have many examples, but if his athleticism stays he might be one for the ages.

 

I understand your viewpoint. 

Counterpoints:

1) elite RBs who take care of their bodies are now playing at pretty durn elite levels into their late 20's/30s - McCoy, Ingram, AP, etc.

2) at present, Lamar Jackson's package as a QB is elite athleticism (running, extending plays) coupled with efficient passing that has some limitations.

 

It is entirely possible that, just as we hope Allen will develop as a passer and overcome some of his limitations, Jackson may also develop as a passer and overcome his limitations.

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I thought this was going to be about how Lamar got exposed by the Bills and Titans, and how the rest of the league was going to catch on like they did against the Wildcat.

 

Rather it's just "in an undetermined number of years, Lamar isn't going to run as fast so he'll be a trash QB and make no progress as a passer" while assuming our running QB does make progress.

 

You outta be hired in the scouting department!

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15 hours ago, Buffalo Timmy said:

I truly think the Bills intentionally put Josh into some tough spots this year and he grew during them. They did not give him the big reciever as a security blanket, he had only small precise recievers which forced him to be more accurate. They called plays that were not one read plays but required him to make decisions during plays, forcing him to grow mentally. Lastly I think he learns best on the field and his playing time is a big help.

   Why I think Jackson is not as viable long term is his offense was already tailor made for him and once his athleticism slips at all he will have issues being more traditional.

So well thought out. All these excuses for JA’s non success and 1 great reason for LJ’s non failure. 

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16 hours ago, BigBillsFan said:

Jackson is now a proven commodity, Josh isn't. Lamar might not last from injury, Allen might not because of ability to throw.

 

Vick could have played 8 years at a high level, we'll learn about Jackson but he's already viable, a freaking monster on the football field. If Josh can learn to make the right throws he'll be more viable, but the same could be said of Jackson. Jackson has shown more with his arm than Allen.

 

Jackson showed more in the 1st 2 games of 2019 than any of Josh's games. The 1st with his arm and 2nd with both arm and legs.

Vick was less accurate than Josh is and I’m not sure Jackson is any more accurate.. 

 

Ability to throw? LOL.

 

Josh’s decision making and mechanics are his issue. 

 

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18 hours ago, Buffalo Timmy said:

I truly think the Bills intentionally put Josh into some tough spots this year and he grew during them. They did not give him the big reciever as a security blanket, he had only small precise recievers which forced him to be more accurate. They called plays that were not one read plays but required him to make decisions during plays, forcing him to grow mentally. Lastly I think he learns best on the field and his playing time is a big help.

   Why I think Jackson is not as viable long term is his offense was already tailor made for him and once his athleticism slips at all he will have issues being more traditional.


Ultimately- the better passer will win. Today it’s josh but both have a lot of work left to be a guy winning consistently with a mature nfl roster surrounding a franchise an contract. 

3 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I understand your viewpoint. 

Counterpoints:

1) elite RBs who take care of their bodies are now playing at pretty durn elite levels into their late 20's/30s - McCoy, Ingram, AP, etc.

2) at present, Lamar Jackson's package as a QB is elite athleticism (running, extending plays) coupled with efficient passing that has some limitations.

 

It is entirely possible that, just as we hope Allen will develop as a passer and overcome some of his limitations, Jackson may also develop as a passer and overcome his limitations.


how many of those backs are also trying to throw pin point passes with a shaky foundation or busted shoulder? 
 

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4 hours ago, Jay_Fixit said:

Vick was less accurate than Josh is and I’m not sure Jackson is any more accurate.. 

 

Ability to throw? LOL.

 

Josh’s decision making and mechanics are his issue. 

 

 

I don't consider ability to throw Uncle Rico style chucking the rock. Most NFL passes for distance max out around 45mph.

 

Decision making and mechanics are your ability to throw. It's the whole of you is your ability to throw. If ability to throw is sheer power than Russell would have been all-world.

 

Steve Young for the long ball competition barely cleared 50 yards. Watson never cleared 50mph in the combine. Most long balls never clear 30-40 yards.

 

 

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On 2/5/2020 at 7:53 AM, Hardhatharry said:

I dont know if either will be viable long term... 

They actually both will be.  They both have the tools and are putting in the work.

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13 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I understand your viewpoint. 

Counterpoints:

1) elite RBs who take care of their bodies are now playing at pretty durn elite levels into their late 20's/30s - McCoy, Ingram, AP, etc.

2) at present, Lamar Jackson's package as a QB is elite athleticism (running, extending plays) coupled with efficient passing that has some limitations.

 

It is entirely possible that, just as we hope Allen will develop as a passer and overcome some of his limitations, Jackson may also develop as a passer and overcome his limitations.

While Mayfield was off playing and building his image(Kaeperniking), Allen and Jackson were putting in work.  I believe both will have long careers.  It is not very often that the high ceiling guys are the ones that make it while the others do not.  It seems to be the case with this draft.

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On 2/5/2020 at 10:12 AM, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Let me try to spell it out.

Both Allen and Jackson are limited as passers right now.  Their limitations are different.
 

You are saying that Josh will continue to develop and "become the better QB" while dismissing the possibility that Jackson (who by his teammates and coaches accounts is football-intelligent and a very hard worker) will also continue to develop.

 

That's what's there, no reaching necessary.

That's a good short answer.   However, I believe that the difference in their current limitations makes it more likely that Allen will have the better career.   

 

Jackson won't run like that forever.   Russell Wilson doesn't run as well as he used to.   Injuries and defensive strategies will catch up with Jackson.   

 

They both will have to learn to be field generals.   Let's assume they learn to be as good running offenses as Brady and Rodgers and Brees.   If they do, Allen will have a very large edge over Jackson:  his ability to throw any kind of pass, more or less any time.   Jackson doesn't have the arm, and there's nothing he can do about that. 

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I see Josh and Lamar as very similar, except josh is less of a threat on the run. 
 

It would be an interesting thought experiment to switch QBs between teams and schemes as balrimore in my opinion has better offensive players across the board and a more friendly scheme for a young qb. 
 

In the end, Both relied way more on their athleticism in 2019 then they will be able to down the road.

 

hard to Find a way to agree that the league MVP has farther to go than our guy. 

 

 

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56 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

That's a good short answer.   However, I believe that the difference in their current limitations makes it more likely that Allen will have the better career.   

 

Jackson won't run like that forever.   Russell Wilson doesn't run as well as he used to.   Injuries and defensive strategies will catch up with Jackson.   

 

They both will have to learn to be field generals.   Let's assume they learn to be as good running offenses as Brady and Rodgers and Brees.   If they do, Allen will have a very large edge over Jackson:  his ability to throw any kind of pass, more or less any time.   Jackson doesn't have the arm, and there's nothing he can do about that. 

 

Just to point out here that there's quite the stable of QBs over the years who "didn't have the arm" and who nevertheless have managed impressive careers, Montana and Brady being the first examples that come to mind.

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24 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Just to point out here that there's quite the stable of QBs over the years who "didn't have the arm" and who nevertheless have managed impressive careers, Montana and Brady being the first examples that come to mind.

No doubt.   But the arm is a serious advantage or put another way, Jackson has to be a nearly all-time great field general to over come his throwing limitations.  

 

I think it's interesting how the press continues to overlook DeShaun Watson.    He runs nearly as well as Jackson, and he is one major-league thrower.   He's the guy I think Allen will be chasing, not Jackson.  

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10 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

No doubt.   But the arm is a serious advantage or put another way, Jackson has to be a nearly all-time great field general to over come his throwing limitations.  

 

I think it's interesting how the press continues to overlook DeShaun Watson.    He runs nearly as well as Jackson, and he is one major-league thrower.   He's the guy I think Allen will be chasing, not Jackson.  

 

I think Jackson has a better arm than is commonly appreciated.  His inability to throw to the sidelines has to do with improper mechanics, to my knowledge, not with arm limitations per se.  If Allen can fix his footwork or at least improve it, I don't see why Jackson can't.

 

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On 2/5/2020 at 3:32 PM, Mr. WEO said:

 

Fixed

 

Chicken Boo had it right. Josh needs to get better. 

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2 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I think Jackson has a better arm than is commonly appreciated.  His inability to throw to the sidelines has to do with improper mechanics, to my knowledge, not with arm limitations per se.  If Allen can fix his footwork or at least improve it, I don't see why Jackson can't.

 

I'm no expert, but as I've said before, I don't think Allen has mechanical problems.   I think he just has recognition problems.   When he isn't rushed, he's generally fine.   I expect to see continued improvement in his accuracy and consistency as his understanding of the game improves.   

 

I think Jackson has actual mechanical problems - he doesn't have a classic throwing motion, and I agree with those who think think that significant mechanical problems are hard to fix.  

 

So I think you and I just disagree a bit on this.  

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2 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

I'm no expert, but as I've said before, I don't think Allen has mechanical problems.   I think he just has recognition problems.   When he isn't rushed, he's generally fine.   I expect to see continued improvement in his accuracy and consistency as his understanding of the game improves.   

 

I think Jackson has actual mechanical problems - he doesn't have a classic throwing motion, and I agree with those who think think that significant mechanical problems are hard to fix.  

 

So I think you and I just disagree a bit on this.  

 

Well, you can 'not think Allen has "mechanical problems" ' as you wish.  I specifically mentioned "footwork" where Allen is concerned.  Some people do make a distinction between problems with throwing motion vs. footwork - since apparently the latter can cause the former, I'm fuzzy on that.

People who know way more than I do about QB play have said Josh has throwing issues that are linked to footwork.  Let's start with.... Josh Allen himself:

"I had a problem with a long front step and that was causing my elbow to drop, and it was throwing off the entire sequence within the hip and the shoulder and the arm coming through," Allen told The Buffalo News this week. "So when I keep that steady and I can take a small front stride and get (the left foot) down, my lead step, as fast as possible, the ball comes out quicker, it comes out cleaner, my throwing motion is less violent and that equals more accurate balls."   Mike Mayock before the draft made similar comments, calling Allen an "overstrider" and commenting that he had done a lot of work prior to the combine/proday to address that, now the question was would it stay with him in pads during a game?

 

It did to some extent during 2018.  In 2019 and the NFL passing chart clearly showed further progress in areas that were still problems the previous year, but at times when Josh was too "amped up" early in a game or under too much pressure, IMO he backslid.

 

Jim Kubiak (who played for Navy, the NFL, and arena league before starting a QB academy) writes a column about Allen every week for TBN and has several times this Fall commented on Allen dropping or having a lower elbow than he should, and that leading to problems with his deep throws.   @Buffalo716 has commented on Allen's throwing technique, especially with regard to touch throws and long balls.  McDermott, in his post season presser (21:00 in) specifically called out "the long ball" and "his feet" as on Allen's off-season "to do" list.  In a recent TBN article, Jordan Palmer commented specifically on mechanics to work on.  

 

So yeah, you can "not think that Allen has mechanical problems" and you and I can disagree on this, but realize that the reason I think this is because all these other guys who know more than I do about it say it's something he's worked on, it's gotten better, he's going to be working on more this off season.

 

With regard to Jackson, he doesn't have a classical throwing motion but neither do a bunch of other highly successful QB including Phillip Rivers and Sam Darnold.  Specifically with Jackson's throws to the sideline, what's been called out is his narrow base.  Now a base is...footwork.  So if Jackson can improve his throwing technique (and he did markedly, between 2018 and 2019), but the problem still creeps in (or has more impact) on those throws to the sideline, I don't see why further hard work of his can't further improve.

 

I think significant mechanical problems (and I include footwork that leads to mechanical problems in this) are legitimately hard to fix, and hard not to regress under pressure.  But if improvement can occur (and it did, for both Allen and Jackson), then I don't see how we can pre-define a plateau for either.

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On 2/5/2020 at 7:51 AM, Buffalo Timmy said:

I truly think the Bills intentionally put Josh into some tough spots this year and he grew during them. They did not give him the big reciever as a security blanket, he had only small precise recievers which forced him to be more accurate. They called plays that were not one read plays but required him to make decisions during plays, forcing him to grow mentally. Lastly I think he learns best on the field and his playing time is a big help.

   Why I think Jackson is not as viable long term is his offense was already tailor made for him and once his athleticism slips at all he will have issues being more traditional.

Defenses are catching on how to defend the Raven's RPO offense. Jackson is a great player, but I suspect he has been exposed. The Raven's aren't playing in the SB for a good reason...

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11 minutes ago, BUFFALOBART said:

Defenses are catching on how to defend the Raven's RPO offense. Jackson is a great player, but I suspect he has been exposed. The Raven's aren't playing in the SB for a good reason...

 

Right.  In the football chess match, good defensive teams figured out a strategy for "checkmate" against Lamar Jackson.  Now he is going to have to see if he can improve his ability to counter and/or if Roman can cook up something.

 

Similar thing happened to the Bills with teams figuring out our OL was vulnerable to a Blitz0 with guys dropping into coverage and stunting to put a rusher on our TE, while we could neither hit the deep post that left open nor execute a screen.  Now we're gonna see it from good D's unless we develop a screen game and/or Allen develops a deep post to counter

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1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Well, you can not think Allen has "mechanical problems".  I specifically mentioned "footwork" where Allen is concerned.  Some people do make a distinction between problems with throwing motion vs. footwork - since apparently the latter can cause the former, I'm fuzzy on that.

People who know way more than I do about QB play have said Josh has throwing issues that are linked to footwork.  Let's start with.... Josh Allen himself:

"I had a problem with a long front step and that was causing my elbow to drop, and it was throwing off the entire sequence within the hip and the shoulder and the arm coming through," Allen told The Buffalo News this week. "So when I keep that steady and I can take a small front stride and get (the left foot) down, my lead step, as fast as possible, the ball comes out quicker, it comes out cleaner, my throwing motion is less violent and that equals more accurate balls."   Mike Mayock before the draft made similar comments, calling Allen an "overstrider" and commenting that he had done a lot of work prior to the combine/proday to address that, now the question was would it stay with him in pads during a game?

 

It did to some extent during 2018.  In 2019 and the NFL passing chart clearly showed further progress in areas that were still problems the previous year, but at times when Josh was too "amped up" early in a game or under too much pressure, IMO he backslid.

 

Jim Kubiak (who played for Navy, the NFL, and arena league before starting a QB academy) writes a column about Allen every week for TBN and has several times this Fall commented on Allen dropping or having a lower elbow than he should, and that leading to problems with his deep throws.   @Buffalo716 has commented on Allen's throwing technique, especially with regard to touch throws and long balls.  McDermott, in his post season presser (21:00 in) specifically called out "the long ball" and footwork as on Allen's off-season "to do" list.  In a recent TBN article, Jordan Palmer commented specifically on mechanics to work on.  

 

So yeah, you can not think that Allen has mechanical problems and you and I can disagree on this, but realize that the reason I think this is because all these other guys who know more than I do about it say it's something he's worked on, it's gotten better, he's going to be working on more this off season.

 

With regard to Jackson, he doesn't have a classical throwing motion but neither do a bunch of other highly successful QB including Phillip Rivers and Sam Darnold.  Specifically with Jackson's throws to the sideline, what's been called out is his narrow base.  Now a base is...footwork.  So if Jackson can improve his throwing technique (and he did markedly, between 2018 and 2019), but the problem still creeps in (or has more impact) on those throws to the sideline, I don't see why further hard work of his can't further improve.

 

I think significant mechanical problems (and I include footwork that leads to mechanical problems in this) are legitimately hard to fix, and hard not to regress under pressure.  But if improvement can occur (and it did, for both Allen and Jackson), then I don't see how we can pre-define a plateau for either.

 

 

How can he still have footwork problems after his work with Palmer?

 

Have you seen Palmer's footwork??

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5 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

How can he still have footwork problems after his work with Palmer?

 

Did you by chance actually look at any of the stuff I linked?  Some answers there, but I'll give you a fast one:  because fixing a technical issue for an athlete in a practice environment is different from having it totally fixed under pressure and through the grind of a long season.   It's progress if an athlete works on something and sees improvement that sticks at all in game situations.  Sticking enough to show real improvement is positive.  Sticking enough to be closer to 100% takes time.

 

Quote

Have you seen Palmer's footwork??

 

Jordan Palmer?  Not relevent - plenty of guys who can do can't teach and vice versa.  I believe I heard Lamar Jackson's QB guru is a HS football coach.

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4 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Did you by chance actually look at any of the stuff I linked?  Some answers there, but I'll give you a fast one:  because fixing a technical issue for an athlete in a practice environment is different from having it totally fixed under pressure and through the grind of a long season.   It's progress if an athlete works on something and sees improvement that sticks at all in game situations.  Sticking enough to show real improvement is positive.  Sticking enough to be closer to 100% takes time.

 

 

Jordan Palmer?  Not relevent - plenty of guys who can do can't teach and vice versa.  I believe I heard Lamar Jackson's QB guru is a HS football coach.

 

 

Was kidding.  Don't you remember the thread a few years ago raving about Palmer's footwork during his glorious 5 day career with the Bills?

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1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

he doesn't have a classical throwing motion but neither do a bunch of other highly successful QB including Phillip Rivers and Sam Darnold. 

Darnold is highly successful?

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5 minutes ago, Reed83HOF said:

Darnold is highly successful?

 

 Fair cop.  Should I say "highly touted prospects whose technique was not criticized" instead?

 

6 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

Was kidding.  Don't you remember the thread a few years ago raving about Palmer's footwork during his glorious 5 day career with the Bills?

 

I do not!

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