Big Blitz Posted November 19, 2020 Share Posted November 19, 2020 2 hours ago, oldmanfan said: Those folks should be voted out. To all still continuing to question masks and Covid responses and on and on: How many more deaths will convince you? How many people dying are you OK with? How many more reports of hospitals being close to the breaking point will convince you? Why aren't the masks working in NY and Illinois? Why are you blaming people for an airborne virus? Why are you assuming it's people that "oppose restrictions" that are the problem? Why aren't we doing as well as Europe? Oh wait... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrober38 Posted November 19, 2020 Share Posted November 19, 2020 Just now, Big Blitz said: Why aren't the masks working in NY and Illinois? Why are you blaming people for an airborne virus? Why are you assuming it's people that "oppose restrictions" that are the problem? Why aren't we doing as well as Europe? Oh wait... 750 million people live in Europe. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Blitz Posted November 19, 2020 Share Posted November 19, 2020 2 minutes ago, jrober38 said: 750 million people live in Europe. And all their numbers are double ours. The cases are equal per capita but they have more deaths. They have twice the cases and over 4 times the deaths. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrober38 Posted November 19, 2020 Share Posted November 19, 2020 3 minutes ago, Big Blitz said: And all their numbers are double ours. The cases are equal per capita but they have more deaths. They have twice the cases and over 4 times the deaths. Math doesn't appear to be your strong suit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldmanfan Posted November 19, 2020 Share Posted November 19, 2020 8 minutes ago, Big Blitz said: Why aren't the masks working in NY and Illinois? Why are you blaming people for an airborne virus? Why are you assuming it's people that "oppose restrictions" that are the problem? Why aren't we doing as well as Europe? Oh wait... Masks don’t work when people don’t wear them. Europe’s rates are going up because they slacked off their protections. Check Sweden -not doing so well. People don’t make the airborne virus; they spread the virus into the air, spreading that is mitigated by distancing and masking, which too many people ignore. I assume people opposing things like distancing and masks are the problem because they are more likely to contract and then spread the virus. Simple stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBBills Posted November 19, 2020 Share Posted November 19, 2020 14 minutes ago, Big Blitz said: Why aren't the masks working in NY and Illinois? Why are you blaming people for an airborne virus? Why are you assuming it's people that "oppose restrictions" that are the problem? Why aren't we doing as well as Europe? Oh wait... Seems to be working, looks like the people that get Covid are the ones that don't wear a mask. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Blitz Posted November 19, 2020 Share Posted November 19, 2020 (edited) 8 minutes ago, jrober38 said: Math doesn't appear to be your strong suit. America: 330 million people 150K cases a day 1500 deaths a day Europe: 750 million people 300K cases a day 5000 deaths a day #mAtH So please explain, Doctor. What is it that is happening? Btw, did the lethality of the virus drop? Or was it all in just NYC in March? Apparently, the country should have quarantined NYC and forced just it to shelter in place for 2 months. Because it clearly wasn't anywhere else. This is on Fauci. And the political hacks at the CDC Edited November 19, 2020 by Big Blitz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaryPinC Posted November 19, 2020 Share Posted November 19, 2020 (edited) 4 hours ago, aristocrat said: yes because this is one of the most contagious viruses we've ever seen and you're learning that the only hope we've ever had against it is getting a vaccine. lockdowns across the world have slowed it some but won't stop it. Wrong. It's been stopped in China. The most populous country in the world. Here's a great article about it: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(20)30800-8/fulltext My wife is Chinese and one of my friends is back home there now. They've been almost entirely mask free since April. April. The only times they must wear masks is subways and busses. They did real lockdowns, if one person in a building had it the entire building was locked down, one person per family was designated to go pick up supplies every 2 days. Testing checkpoints, sacrifices of personal freedoms that people in the US would violently rebel against. The infected were at times grouped in converted theaters, gyms, etc with medical staff. But, April. What the rest of the world needs to realize is that a swift, painful but concerted effort is needed at the beginning to cut off spread to enable contact tracing. People have to realize they're sacrificing a month or two of freedoms to prevent what the we are experiencing now. "Virus is gonna virus?" You succeed contact tracing, you succeed in isolating all infected people and all potential sources of transmission and virus is gonna die. But that's incredibly difficult to do if you don't catch it at the beginning. The US and most of the world has been all about slowing the infectivity rate of the virus, nothing else. We were never going to be able to replicate China and stamp it out because from a health logistics standpoint we weren't set up for it and our citizens are unwilling to sacrifice so much freedom. That's still our plan until the vaccine(s) are given. Normal doesn't happen until mass vaccination. Don't like it? That's what we chose because of an inability to do better. We need to learn our lessons and do better next time. I am against drugs unless absolutely necessary but I will be getting a vaccine ASAP. Why? Because my kids will have to get it, it's what's necessary to get back to normal, and I'd rather step up and contribute in a positive way then simply complain about it. Pretending the virus doesn't exist, that being exposed means you are immune thereafter, and that the US plans of masking and social distancing would stop it are just myths. What are we going to do about it and what sacrifices will we make to do better next time? Edited November 19, 2020 by GaryPinC 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoshin Posted November 19, 2020 Share Posted November 19, 2020 I don't believe much from China. Korea is the country we need to learn from to prepare for the next time this happens. And next time, it may not be such an insignificant virus. 350,000+ Americans will disagree by the time this is over but Covid is a lot better than it could have been. Imagine a deadly flu strain that was taking kids in the same way this took the elderly and you get the picture. The Biden administration needs to have a team of pandemic experts sit in a room with their Korean counterparts and do one thing: Take notes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldmanfan Posted November 19, 2020 Share Posted November 19, 2020 5 minutes ago, Big Blitz said: America: 330 million people 150K cases a day 1500 deaths a day Europe: 750 million people 300K cases a day 5000 deaths a day #mAtH So please explain, Doctor. What is it that is happening? Btw, did the lethality of the virus drop? Or was it all in just NYC in March? Apparently, the country should have quarantined NYC and forced just it to shelter in place for 2 months. Because it clearly wasn't anywhere else. This is on Fauci. And the political hacks at the CDC We have better hospital facilities. We’ve made advances in treatment. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaryPinC Posted November 19, 2020 Share Posted November 19, 2020 4 minutes ago, shoshin said: I don't believe much from China. Korea is the country we need to learn from to prepare for the next time this happens. And next time, it may not be such an insignificant virus. 350,000+ Americans will disagree by the time this is over but Covid is a lot better than it could have been. Imagine a deadly flu strain that was taking kids in the same way this took the elderly and you get the picture. The Biden administration needs to have a team of pandemic experts sit in a room with their Korean counterparts and do one thing: Take notes. Well, my friend lives in Shanghai. He is an honest friend (who loves the US) and when he tells me life has been back to normal since April I believe him. Given the population density of that area, no way does the government allow that if the virus is still raging but being covered up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Blitz Posted November 19, 2020 Share Posted November 19, 2020 Just now, oldmanfan said: We have better hospital facilities. We’ve made advances in treatment. Yea, no. While true that doesn't accomplish what was posted above about how we should have been just like China. If we were, NYC and NYC alone should have been locked down on March 9th. Why wasn't it? What were Cuomo and DeBlasio and Fauci saying about this in early March? Is it possible Saint Fauci didn't want to just make NYC and NYC alone quarantine? It had to be EVERYONE. Because that is just......feelings over science. NY would have looked like a failure if just the city was quarantined. But that's the truth. That's where it was. It wasn't anywhere else and we wasted months and destroyed the trust of the American people. All the health experts and models were wrong. It was only in NYC. But we made it a national (Trump) problem. Its despicable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoshin Posted November 19, 2020 Share Posted November 19, 2020 1 minute ago, GaryPinC said: Well, my friend lives in Shanghai. He is an honest friend (who loves the US) and when he tells me life has been back to normal since April I believe him. Given the population density of that area, no way does the government allow that if the virus is still raging but being covered up. Totally fair and I was flip about my China comment. I look more to Korea since they are a democracy. A totalitarian state should be able to deal with its citizens easily. Tell them what to do and if they don't do it, shoot them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrober38 Posted November 19, 2020 Share Posted November 19, 2020 (edited) 15 minutes ago, Big Blitz said: America: 330 million people 150K cases a day 1500 deaths a day Europe: 750 million people 300K cases a day 5000 deaths a day #mAtH So please explain, Doctor. What is it that is happening? Btw, did the lethality of the virus drop? Or was it all in just NYC in March? Apparently, the country should have quarantined NYC and forced just it to shelter in place for 2 months. Because it clearly wasn't anywhere else. This is on Fauci. And the political hacks at the CDC What is happening, is that you've intentionally changed numbers, and don't appear capable of doing basic mathematic calculations. The US numbers across the board when compared to Europe are much worse. Total deaths much worse, total cases much worse. And what's changed? In a nutshell, treatments have got better. Because this was a brand new virus that had never been seen before, it took a while to figure out that it's actually more of an autoimmune disease than a respiratory one. As time has gone by, doctors have discovered that an effective way to control the virus is with steroids which actually supress your immune system. After all, for most people it's not the virus that kills them, it's their bodies response to the virus getting into their lungs, and their immune system going completely haywire and them ultimately dying due to pneumonia as they essentially wind up drowning on gunk and discharge created by their immune system. Edited November 19, 2020 by jrober38 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoshin Posted November 19, 2020 Share Posted November 19, 2020 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Big Blitz said: Yea, no. While true that doesn't accomplish what was posted above about how we should have been just like China. If we were, NYC and NYC alone should have been locked down on March 9th. Why wasn't it? What were Cuomo and DeBlasio and Fauci saying about this in early March? Is it possible Saint Fauci didn't want to just make NYC and NYC alone quarantine? It had to be EVERYONE. Because that is just......feelings over science. NY would have looked like a failure if just the city was quarantined. But that's the truth. That's where it was. It wasn't anywhere else and we wasted months and destroyed the trust of the American people. All the health experts and models were wrong. It was only in NYC. But we made it a national (Trump) problem. Its despicable. Do you have a link to where Trump said to shut down NYC? No one knew what was happening in March. We lacked a pandemic response to handle this, and our citizens were not educated enough to follow what they would have said anyways. I don't blame Trump for Covid. I don't blame Cumo or Wolf for sending patients to nursing homes 4 weeks into the crisis when we thought we'd have no beds and ventilator shortages. We were totally unprepared and had no idea what we were dealing with in March and April. People made some bad decisions and it wasn't until about June that the chaos of the moment started to clear. We could have take national action in March and gotten this under control. 100% Cuomo could have saved lives by pushing hospital capacity well past what it was made for and not sent patients to nursing homes. Obama could have made sure there were huge storehouses of PPE. Doctors could have figured out steroids work better and that laying patients on their backs was terrible. The bad decisions go on and on. From June on, we needed a more unified national approach on a leadership level, just to unite America vs the virus for a spirit. Instead it turned into the blame game. Edited November 19, 2020 by shoshin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Blitz Posted November 19, 2020 Share Posted November 19, 2020 5 minutes ago, jrober38 said: What is happening, is that you've intentionally changed numbers, and don't appear capable of doing basic mathematic calculations. The US numbers across the board when compared to Europe are much worse. Total deaths much worse, total cases much worse. 250K cases yesterday in Europe. Over 5000 deaths reported yesterday. But our numbers are much much worse? What? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaryPinC Posted November 19, 2020 Share Posted November 19, 2020 Just now, shoshin said: Totally fair and I was flip about my China comment. I look more to Korea since they are a democracy. A totalitarian state should be able to deal with its citizens easily. Tell them what to do and if they don't do it, shoot them. No one he knows of was shot. I've heard no reports of shootings over Covid, have you? Despite the Chinese government, the people themselves also understood the gravity of the situation and were willing to make those sacrifices. My wife (who HATES the Chinese government) was completly mystified about US resistance to masking and lockdowns. Do people here really not care about helping each other through this? I had to explain US history and that individual freedom attitude is part of what makes us great but in this case it's absolutely killing us. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrober38 Posted November 19, 2020 Share Posted November 19, 2020 1 minute ago, Big Blitz said: 250K cases yesterday in Europe. Over 5000 deaths reported yesterday. But our numbers are much much worse? What? You're talking about 1 day. I'm talking about 8 months. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaryPinC Posted November 19, 2020 Share Posted November 19, 2020 (edited) 13 minutes ago, Big Blitz said: Yea, no. While true that doesn't accomplish what was posted above about how we should have been just like China. If we were, NYC and NYC alone should have been locked down on March 9th. Why wasn't it? What were Cuomo and DeBlasio and Fauci saying about this in early March? Is it possible Saint Fauci didn't want to just make NYC and NYC alone quarantine? It had to be EVERYONE. Because that is just......feelings over science. NY would have looked like a failure if just the city was quarantined. But that's the truth. That's where it was. It wasn't anywhere else and we wasted months and destroyed the trust of the American people. All the health experts and models were wrong. It was only in NYC. But we made it a national (Trump) problem. Its despicable. Yea, no. The first confirmed case of COVID was in Washington State January 20th. First NYC case February 29th. Detroit and Chicago airports were two of the last to close to European travel and it's suspected that's why they've had so many problems. Pretending everything hinged on NYC is blindingly stupid. Edited November 19, 2020 by GaryPinC 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Blitz Posted November 19, 2020 Share Posted November 19, 2020 1 minute ago, jrober38 said: You're talking about 1 day. I'm talking about 8 months. Ok. They are now at 14 million cases (allegedly) bc they don't have the testing capacity we do across the board. We have 11 million cases (allegedly). They are 330K dead. We are at 250K. Is this really significant a difference? No it isnt. And I trust our count more then I do over there (and I dont trust ours much at all). I'm sure they undercounted and we have over counted. That's just my opinion. The only numbers that should be counted and tracked by the media are hospitalizations and ICUs. That's it. Let the localities decide what mitigation to take if any. March proved a national response is #1 wrong and #2 absolutely puts power and more of it where it should not be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrober38 Posted November 19, 2020 Share Posted November 19, 2020 1 minute ago, Big Blitz said: The only numbers that should be counted and tracked by the media are hospitalizations and ICUs. That's it. Let the localities decide what mitigation to take if any. March proved a national response is #1 wrong and #2 absolutely puts power and more of it where it should not be. When did the US ever have a national response? I must have missed it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Blitz Posted November 19, 2020 Share Posted November 19, 2020 3 minutes ago, GaryPinC said: Yea, no. The first confirmed case of COVID was in Washington State January 20th. First NYC case February 29th. Detroit and Chicago airports were two of the last to close to European travel and it's suspected that's why they've had so many problems. Pretending everything hinged on NYC is blindingly stupid. Then the virus is nowhere near as lethal as it was in March. That or it isn't as contagious and no one believes that. And yes, it has been proven our national outbreak did emerge from NYC: Travel From New York City Seeded Wave of U.S. Outbreaks https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/07/us/new-york-city-coronavirus-outbreak.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaryPinC Posted November 19, 2020 Share Posted November 19, 2020 4 minutes ago, Big Blitz said: Then the virus is nowhere near as lethal as it was in March. That or it isn't as contagious and no one believes that. And yes, it has been proven our national outbreak did emerge from NYC: Travel From New York City Seeded Wave of U.S. Outbreaks https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/07/us/new-york-city-coronavirus-outbreak.html From your article: Travel from other American cities also sparked infections across the country, including from an early outbreak centered in the Seattle area that seeded infections in more than a dozen states, researchers say. Even if New York had managed to slow the virus, it probably would have continued to spread from elsewhere, they say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Blitz Posted November 19, 2020 Share Posted November 19, 2020 1 hour ago, GaryPinC said: From your article: Travel from other American cities also sparked infections across the country, including from an early outbreak centered in the Seattle area that seeded infections in more than a dozen states, researchers say. Even if New York had managed to slow the virus, it probably would have continued to spread from elsewhere, they say. Well how in the world can we ever get down to zero cases without single global entity locking down and contact tracing the entire planet? We have precedent for this somewhere right? And we can all live like the Chinese who supposedly "conquered" the virus. No you cannot live as a free society doing this indefinitely with zero idea of any time frame. F that. And no one knows the time frame. If no vaccine, or it's a failure, how are kids going to do this going on year 2.....and then 3? Any supporter of locking down for any period of time has either a secure paycheck somehow (government employee) or no kids....or both. Month 9. Maybe you'd get more people to buy in to whatever the hell you want to do if the spokesmen for supposedly fighting this weren't out there talking about new normals, global resets, green new deals, and re imagining capitalism or school. That's always been the problem. No one trusts the people we should be trusting because first of all they haven't earned it and second its blatantly obvious there are other agendas here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBBills Posted November 19, 2020 Share Posted November 19, 2020 The whole point of keeping the spread slowed till a vaccine is to not overwhelm the hospitals, Trumpies don't care about hospital workers though. Let's do no masks at Trump's rallies, and no masks protests, also have big gatherings at the White House garden with no masks also.... Wait why are the cases going up so suddenly... Masks are worthless. That is the stupid mentality of some of those here in this forum. Just now, Big Blitz said: Well how in the world can we ever get down to zero cases without single global entity locking down and contact tracing the entire planet? We have precedent for this somewhere right? And we can all live like the Chinese who supposedly "conquered" the virus. No you cannot live as a free society doing this indefinitely with zero idea of any time frame. F that. And no one knows the time frame. If no vaccine, or it's a failure, how are kids going to do this going on year 2.....and then 3? Any supporter of locking down for any period of time has either a secure paycheck somehow (government employee) or no kids....or both. Month 9. Maybe you'd get more people to buy in to whatever the hell you want to do if the spokesmen for supposedly fighting this weren't out there talking about new normals, global resets, green new deals, and re imagining capitalism or school. That's always been the problem. No one trusts the people we should be trusting because first of all they haven't earned it and second its blatantly obvious there are other agendas here. Not about getting to zero cases... About not overwhelming the hospitals before we get a vaccine that works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Blitz Posted November 19, 2020 Share Posted November 19, 2020 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBBills Posted November 19, 2020 Share Posted November 19, 2020 1 minute ago, Big Blitz said: Extremisms!!!! ***** yea! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Blitz Posted November 19, 2020 Share Posted November 19, 2020 3 minutes ago, TBBills said: The whole point of keeping the spread slowed till a vaccine is to not overwhelm the hospitals, Trumpies don't care about hospital workers though. Let's do no masks at Trump's rallies, and no masks protests, also have big gatherings at the White House garden with no masks also.... Wait why are the cases going up so suddenly... Masks are worthless. That is the stupid mentality of some of those here in this forum. Not about getting to zero cases... About not overwhelming the hospitals before we get a vaccine that works. Lol now you're backing up the goal posts?? Well I'm glad someone is listening to what we've been saying since March. Unfortunately, that hasn't been how the tyrannical have governed in most places. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBBills Posted November 19, 2020 Share Posted November 19, 2020 Just now, Big Blitz said: Lol now you're backing up the goal posts?? Well I'm glad someone is listening to what we've been saying since March. Unfortunately, that hasn't been how the tyrannical have governed in most places. Backing up this has been the plan the whole time... Except you and others like you cannot understand that. Are you pretending like this was your view the whole time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Blitz Posted November 19, 2020 Share Posted November 19, 2020 46 minutes ago, TBBills said: Backing up this has been the plan the whole time... Except you and others like you cannot understand that. Are you pretending like this was your view the whole time? Oh you must be new here. I was saying in March to wear masks and be full open. Let the localities decide big events or not. And the only number that mattered was hospitalizations. A national response was always stupid. I've blasted Trump repeatedly on here over his handling of Covid----bc he caved to the bureaucrats that hate him. Because you can't tell everyone to proceed as normal live your life it's not a big deal, but hey I saved 2 million lives. It can't be both. The whole thing from how it unfolded in December of 2019 thru March to now ....if you cant see that AT BEST the virus has been politicized by global elites that hate you and me.....to AT WORST something more nefarious then I don't know what to tell you. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unforgiven Posted November 19, 2020 Share Posted November 19, 2020 9 minutes ago, Big Blitz said: Oh you must be new here. I was saying in March to wear masks and be full open. Let the localities decide big events or not. And the only number that mattered was hospitalizations. A national response was always stupid. I've blasted Trump repeatedly on here over his handling of Covid----bc he caved to the bureaucrats that hate him. Because you can't tell everyone to proceed as normal live your life it's not a big deal, but hey I saved 2 million lives. It can't be both. The whole thing from how it unfolded in December of 2019 thru March to now ....if you cant see that AT BEST the virus has been politicized by global elites that hate you and me.....to AT WORST something more nefarious then I don't know what to tell you. Its as obvious as blm burning a business down in the background while a dimwit reporter says Its a mostly peaceful protest. Then the dimwits here post it was white supremacists all along. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dhg Posted November 19, 2020 Share Posted November 19, 2020 TBBills added to ignore list. Trump bad. Trump virus. Nobody wears masks because of Trump. Trump people want infections. Blah, blah blah. Somebody needs a hug 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Blitz Posted November 19, 2020 Share Posted November 19, 2020 What does "Build Back Better" mean @TBBills? Isn't this just about staying safe from a "super lethal" virus? Nothing to see here. Trust the government, they're here to help. Just like Bill Gates is here for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Blitz Posted November 19, 2020 Share Posted November 19, 2020 Build back better! Nope. None. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bakin Posted November 20, 2020 Share Posted November 20, 2020 7 hours ago, TBBills said: There we go was waiting for the bull####. Basement dwellers are on the other site, I suggest you head over there... Your garbage doesn't work here. You’re right. It was Trump who walked out of the virology lab in WuTang with COVID on his shoe. #orangemanviral 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBBills Posted November 20, 2020 Share Posted November 20, 2020 1 minute ago, Bakin said: You’re right. It was Trump who walked out of the virology lab in WuTang with COVID on his shoe. #orangemanviral You never know, Trump does have Chinese bank accounts. Meanwhile the flashdrive... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BullBuchanan Posted November 20, 2020 Share Posted November 20, 2020 (edited) 55 minutes ago, Big Blitz said: Build back better! Nope. None. She ***** sucks. What's your point? Edited November 20, 2020 by BullBuchanan 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bakin Posted November 20, 2020 Share Posted November 20, 2020 26 minutes ago, TBBills said: You never know, Trump does have Chinese bank accounts. Meanwhile the flashdrive... Oooooh. Chinese bank accounts. I had a Chinese bank account for years. probably means I’m Hitler, too. Meanwhile your hero, non-POTUS-Elect Biden, has been large scale grifting with China for years with his son as the point man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Blitz Posted November 20, 2020 Share Posted November 20, 2020 37 minutes ago, BullBuchanan said: She ***** sucks. What's your point? Just that she read the Danish study that confirms what she's known probably since January. Masks are pointless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BullBuchanan Posted November 20, 2020 Share Posted November 20, 2020 Just now, Big Blitz said: Just that she read the Danish study that confirms what she's known probably since January. Masks are pointless. Well that's straight up wrong, but I really don't expect you to come armed with facts, so carry on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts