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Lieutenant Aldo Raine

John Brown failure to toe drag

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8 hours ago, billsfan714 said:

I was thinking the exact thing as it happened.    A great receiver has the awareness to drag the toes, churn up the black rubber and probably fall forward, but makes the sacrifice of the body to make plays.   Just another example of the O needing better playmakers.   Its what separates great from average.    Playmakers make plays at key moments.

Immediately made me think of Vegas effect, he did not seem to try. WAS there a pay off

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

Wat

 

 

Oh, you didn't understand? If it wasn't clear enough, I'll try to explain again.

 

You said this in explaining your rules:

 

5 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

Ok since you seem unable to grasp this concept: technically yes, you are correct- EVERY team has a WR1. I am speaking of a wideout who is able to make the tough catches in important moments without being wide open, who defenses have to build game plans around, who can score from anywhere, kind of guy who will extend catch radius which will be immensely helpful for a QB like Allen.

 

 

Hill isn't a guy who "extends catch radius," a phrase that makes no sense by the way. He's a guy who gets open a lot with his speed and shiftiness. But he doesn't fit your rules here.

 

Sure he occasionally jumps for a ball. So has John Brown.

 

 

5 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

 

We don’t have a guy right now whose catch radius extends beyond the length of his arms. Or can fight through a defender and present a bigger target. Maybe Knox eventually but right now the wideouts can’t.

 

 

Wat.

 

Know whose catch radius extend beyond the length of his arms? Octopuses? Guys using long sticks with stickum on 'em. That's about it. Guys with long arms have longer reaches. Nobody catches stuff beyond their reach, though. And for sure not Tyreek Hill.

 

Nor does Tyreek Hill "fight through defenders" or anyway no more than John Brown or most smaller guys. Hill is faster and better than Brown, but he's not the kind of guy your rules describe. You include Tyreek Hill because you like him, which is fine, but he doesn't fit your own arbitrary qualifications. He's just good.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Thurman#1

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8 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

He's a good receiver, not a #1. Your #1 knows how to make that catch.

Great season but ya we need a #1 badly this offseason. 

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6 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

 

When people say "a true #1," they seem to mean a top 5 or 6 in the league guy. You're right, he's not one of those. He absolutely is one of the top 22 or 23 receivers in the league, though, and that makes him a #1.

 

And as for contested catches, that has nothing to do with being good, elite or whatever. It's only one part of being a receiver. Making catches, contested or not, that makes you a great receiver. Duke Williams makes contested catches, but he sure isn't a true #1. Receivers need to make catches. If they get open and make catches that aren't contested, that's the opposite of a problem. Plenty of great receivers don't make many contested catches.

 

Go back and look at the 5 or 6 times Brown was open long and overthrown by Allen this year. There's no doubt he's a #1.

 

 

 

 

He's not just good. There are probably 60 - 90 guys in the league who are good. He's really good.

 

Elite generally means top three or four in the league. Nobody argues he's elite. They argue that he's a #1. Because he is.

 

I like John Brown, but he is not top 22-23 in this league...   he's more in the 30-40 range.   He's a very good #2 WR 

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8 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

He's a good receiver, not a #1. Your #1 knows how to make that catch.

He IS a good receiver - a very good one. But he’s not a boundary receiver and never has been. The Bills really need one of those to pair with Brown. Yes, it would have been nice if he could have toe tapped there, but I am not going to criticize a 1A-type player for not having the complete skill set of a Hopkins or a Jones.

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, SunDSolar said:

 

I like John Brown, but he is not top 22-23 in this league...   he's more in the 30-40 range.   He's a very good #2 WR 

 

 

He is absolutely a top 22 - 23 guy. All you have to do is look at his yards (21st) and TDs (tied for 24th), and his production. That's where it puts him, and again, he's being thrown to by Josh Allen, and he's on a team that throws less than most of the league.

 

He's already there and he'd be higher if Josh had hit him on say half of the 5 or 6 go routes he threw to Brown open well beyond his man but Josh overthrew him every time. Brown's a #1.

Edited by Thurman#1

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Posted (edited)
18 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

He IS a good receiver - a very good one. But he’s not a boundary receiver and never has been. The Bills really need one of those to pair with Brown. Yes, it would have been nice if he could have toe tapped there, but I am not going to criticize a 1A-type player for not having the complete skill set of a Hopkins or a Jones.

 

 

I'd disagree. He's been used a number of times on outs this year. You said, "never has been, " so I went back and the first old one I found had some good boundary play and a few leaps besides.

 

 

 

They do need another guy or two to give Josh more choices and defenses more to think about. No question. I'd guess maybe another mid-priced FA and maybe a pick in the top three rounds as well.

Edited by Thurman#1

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1 minute ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

I'd disagree. He's been used a number of times on outs this year. You said, "never has been, " so I went back and the first old one I found had some good boundary play and a few leaps besides.

 

 

I am not saying he can’t do it; if he couldn’t, he wouldn’t be in the league. But that was a HARD (albeit doable) boundary catch given the ball’s velocity and his positioning, and that is simply not one of his apex skills. He is a speed guy who is now a good route runner. That is his game.

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2 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

He is absolutely a top 22 - 23 guy. All you have to do is look at his yards and TDs, and his production. That's where it puts him, and again, he's being thrown to by Josh Allen, and he's on a team that throws less than most of the league.

 

He's already there and he'd be higher if Josh had hit him on say half of the 5 or 6 go routes he threw to Brown beyond his man but overthrew him every time. He's a #1.

 

In no paticular order (and i maybe forgetting a guy or 2)

 

ALL BETTER THEN BROWN (JOHN):

Edelmen

Parker

Juju

Beckham

Landry

Green

Hilton

Hopkins

AJ Brown

Sutton

Hill

Allen

Cooper

Gallup

Tate

Adams

Robinson

Thielan

Diggs

Jones (julio)

Godwin

Evans

Samuel

Sanders

Kupp

Woods

Cook

Golladay

Jones (marvin)

Lockett

Thomas

Brown (Antonio)

 

Honorable mentions(on par or a level under):

Ridley

Jeffrey

Shepard

Slayton

Mclarin

Williams (Mike)

Williams (Ty)

Watkins

Chark

Westbrook

Fuller

Metcalf

Watkins

Moore (DJ)

Crowder

Anderson (Robbie)

Gordon (Josh)

 

 

Like i said the guy is somewhere in that 30-40 range...    no way is top 23...

 

 

 

 

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8 hours ago, Rocky Landing said:

I see a thread like this, and I have to wonder what the real point is. Win or loss, every game has mistakes in it. Digging in to the minutia of one botched play has "agenda" written all over it.

‘Agenda’ or just OCD, nobody does self flagellation like the TBD-TSW forums.  😁

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He left his feet to catch and didnt need to.  

8 hours ago, Freak-O said:

If these numbers aren't enough for a #1 receiver then how many teams have one? 

Number 1 statistically but not in ability.   Need someone who makes the tough catches to be a clear number 1.   John simply doesn't.  

 

He would be the best number 2 in the league in my opinion if we get a guy who commands the double teams. 

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46 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

I am not saying he can’t do it; if he couldn’t, he wouldn’t be in the league. But that was a HARD (albeit doable) boundary catch given the ball’s velocity and his positioning, and that is simply not one of his apex skills. He is a speed guy who is now a good route runner. That is his game.

 

I'd say that he's an inconsistently good runner, as evidenced by the last play in Balt.

 

We can apply many subjective characteristics to what a #1 WR is, but the simplest one is the team's approach to the position in the offseason.  If you take a look at any offseason wish lists for the Bills, upgrading the WR position is priority #1 or # 2 on each one.  That indicates that your current #1 WR is really a true #1 .

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We don't NEED better receivers per se any more than we need a better QB.  What we need are a few less mistakes per game and we got that most of the season and then in the playoff game we had more mistakes than usual (offense and defense) and it bit us in the a#@.  We need Allen and the WR's to be a little more surgical and hopefully that is just a matter of time.  We need the OL  and RB's to get better at blocking things up and Allen at recognizing pressure pre snap.  There is no reason to think that the exact same unit we fielded this year couldn't put up more points next year just by Allen having another years experience. 

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All of these threads about specific plays is kind of sad: this was a complete meltdown on all levels, including O, D and coaching. 
 

I trust they will learn from it and it won’t happen again. 

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brown is an above average NFL starting WR, he's not awesome and he's not great.

 

he is tiny, doesn't block well, struggles to get open vs man, and doesn't have great hands.

 

he usually runs good routes, and has solid speed, and is generally a smart player, but like the man above says, he's like a top 50 wr, not a top 25

 

he dropped a couple on the money balls in the playoff game, not getting his feet in with plenty of space and no DB contact is simply inexcusable.  he's not adjusted correctly to a few long balls too this season (early in the baltimore game comes to mind).

 

he's a solid player and im happy he's a bill, but he's not as good as foster flashed late last year (of course he fell off completely).

 

if we had cooper as our 1, with brown as 2 and bease in the slot, we'd have scored 21 points in the first half, and would have cruised to a comfortable road victory, even with houston doing their best to come back.

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10 hours ago, Rocky Landing said:

I see a thread like this, and I have to wonder what the real point is. Win or loss, every game has mistakes in it. Digging in to the minutia of one botched play has "agenda" written all over it.

 

Speaking just for me here, one of my sources of frustration is narrative.   Over. and Over. and Over. again, when we do get a chance to see the Bills play on TV, the announcer follows a narrative: It's Josh Allen's fault.  Bad throw that on replay can be seen to be tipped at the line.

 

In this case, the announcer went on and on and on about a poor throw, late blah blah.  What I know is that if that very same ball were thrown to Deandre Hopkins or Tyreek Hill , it's a just a catch.  A hard catch featuring the need to toe drag, but made on a very regular basis.

 

I'm tired of watching Bills WR and TE routinely drop or go out of bounds or fail to put away catches that other players around the league regularly make to the extent that they are no longer regarded as extraordinary, while announcers go on about how the ball from Allen wasn't perfectly thrown and didn't arrive with a little greeting card and a Snickers attached.

 

Maybe that's an agenda, whatever.

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45 minutes ago, TroutDog said:

All of these threads about specific plays is kind of sad: this was a complete meltdown on all levels, including O, D and coaching. 
I trust they will learn from it and it won’t happen again. 

 

All these threads about specific plays is kind of what we do here: we discuss football.

 

38 minutes ago, colin said:

brown is an above average NFL starting WR, he's not awesome and he's not great.

 

he is tiny, doesn't block well, struggles to get open vs man, and doesn't have great hands.

 

he usually runs good routes, and has solid speed, and is generally a smart player, but like the man above says, he's like a top 50 wr, not a top 25

 

he dropped a couple on the money balls in the playoff game, not getting his feet in with plenty of space and no DB contact is simply inexcusable.  he's not adjusted correctly to a few long balls too this season (early in the baltimore game comes to mind).

 

he's a solid player and im happy he's a bill, but he's not as good as foster flashed late last year (of course he fell off completely).

 

if we had cooper as our 1, with brown as 2 and bease in the slot, we'd have scored 21 points in the first half, and would have cruised to a comfortable road victory, even with houston doing their best to come back.

 

I disagree with some of this.  Brown has laid the lumber on a number of plays this year.  For his size, he's a good blocker and he has very good hands.

 

I think the early Baltimore game was a route mismatch (Josh and Brown read what his route variation should be differently - I can't find but I believe Brown said it was his fault in one postgame interview.

 

Brown >>> Flashing Foster as a WR.

 

Brown and Beasley both struggle to open against man, and Brown can not apparently make these contested catches at all.  If the ball hits him in the hands with a DB screened off behind him and reaching forward, it's not gonna be caught.

 

Other than that, the Play was fine, thank you for asking 😁 and I actually agree with your final sentence.

 

 

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Yes, he should have made the catch and that is another play that if made probably changes the outcome of the game.   I think what happened is that Brown's awareness of the boundaries was lacking.  I think he thought he had a little more room than he did.  

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15 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Speaking just for me here, one of my sources of frustration is narrative.   Over. and Over. and Over. again, when we do get a chance to see the Bills play on TV, the announcer follows a narrative: It's Josh Allen's fault.  Bad throw that on replay can be seen to be tipped at the line.

 

In this case, the announcer went on and on and on about a poor throw, late blah blah.  What I know is that if that very same ball were thrown to Deandre Hopkins or Tyreek Hill , it's a just a catch.  A hard catch featuring the need to toe drag, but made on a very regular basis.

 

I'm tired of watching Bills WR and TE routinely drop or go out of bounds or fail to put away catches that other players around the league regularly make to the extent that they are no longer regarded as extraordinary, while announcers go on about how the ball from Allen wasn't perfectly thrown and didn't arrive with a little greeting card and a Snickers attached.

 

Maybe that's an agenda, whatever.

 

The announcers would go further and point out how Mahomes or Watson were so good because they got the ball into tight spaces where their receivers could make a play on it.

 

The obsession some of us are showing at the Duke "drop" and the Brown missed toe tap is not to trash those receivers it's to point out exactly what you said in your post Hapless Bills Fan.  Allen IS making a lot of the throws that impress us about a Mahomes or a Rogers.  The problem, and it's been a problem all season, is that our skill players simply don't rise to the occasion and catch the DAMN ball.  They are solid WR's that at times can get open against a zone defense.  But that is NOT the same thing as play making WR's.  We simply DO NOT HAVE a play making WR or TE.

 

 

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18 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

All these threads about specific plays is kind of what we do here: we discuss football.

 

I disagree with some of this.  Brown has laid the lumber on a number of plays this year.  For his size, he's a good blocker and he has very good hands.

 

I think the early Baltimore game was a route mismatch (Josh and Brown read what his route variation should be differently - I can't find but I believe Brown said it was his fault in one postgame interview.

 

Brown >>> Flashing Foster as a WR.

 

Brown and Beasley both struggle to open against man, and Brown can not apparently make these contested catches at all.  If the ball hits him in the hands with a DB screened off behind him and reaching forward, it's not gonna be caught.

 

Other than that, the Play was fine, thank you for asking 😁 and I actually agree with your final sentence.

 

 

 

 

you sure about that?  foster (and clearly it was just a hot streak that he couldn't maintain for some crazy reason, foster has talent galore but can't get it together) when he was flashing late last year was just blowing up defenses and locating the ball perfectly.

 

im not saying brown isn't better, just the height of the play that foster showed which made us all excited is a higher level than brown has played at on a consistent basis.

 

****

 

(not related to the post im quoting above) something i like to do is compare skill position players of our team top to bottom to teams we are playing.

 

except for motor, i don't think we have a single player who would make the houston squad.  none of our TEs (but i hope knox improves, in blocking and not dropping balls at least!), obv not mac or williams, not bease and i don't think even brown makes the houston squat because he'd be taking snaps away from fuller who is better.

 

for the rest of the O, i suppose our C is better, maybe spain, and dawkins would prolly be their RT.  it's insane to have that kind of a talent gap on the offensive side of the ball and make the playoffs.

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He just wasnt aware on that play. 

 

Ugly play to watch...but everyone has an ugly play or two a game.

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Look everyone makes mistakes and I bet JB wishes he had that back..he messed up..throw was pretty much PREFECT....IF he had done his part it would still be being discussed as a awesome catch and throw...since he didnt..it gets looked at for the failure it was..

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