Meatloaf63 Posted January 8, 2020 Share Posted January 8, 2020 2 hours ago, Dopey said: He should have caught this contested pass. That's the only attribute he brings. No one mentions the critical drop with a minute left in regulation either. Turn your video on to 1 minute left in regulation. Also the only time he was "open" all night was a 5 yd slant where the db was 8 yds off the los. For a guy " who's open when he's not", he sure wasn't. We went from " coaches are dumb not to put him in" to making excuses for his 2 critical drops. IMO We don't need a guy who MIGHT catch a contested pass cuz he struggles to get open. Well does he struggle to get open or not? He obviously does get open or he wouldn’t have got ten targets. He made a few catches in the first half that others on this team struggle to do with any regularity that you conveniently ignore. Maybe if he would have got more consistent playing time throughout the season he would have done better under the pressure of the circumstances. Or maybe this is who he is, nobody knows yet. To act all high and mighty like you knew he wouldn’t make the catches if given the chance is pretty big BS on your part. And to act like all the other receivers on this team didn’t have there share of drops would be ignorant to. The only obvious truth is the whole core needs to play better and a few better replacements need to be found. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoBills808 Posted January 8, 2020 Share Posted January 8, 2020 Just now, GaryPinC said: I agree with ya, and another reason why I don't think he tracked it well. Underhand allows the ball to come across your body more and give you an extra split second to react to the ball. Exactly, that's just poor technique. You open your body and high point that pass through the DB to take him out of the play. No wideout is taught to attempt this kind of catch on this kind of throw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meatloaf63 Posted January 8, 2020 Share Posted January 8, 2020 56 minutes ago, GaryPinC said: I can't agree with you, I simply don't think Duke was tracking the ball well as it arrived. Look how far apart his hands are, instead of being in a tighter basket. He had enough height off the ground regardless of the arm bar. He makes no attempt to bring his left hand over to his right and the ball squarely hit his right hand. He had enough elevation, bringing his left over would have meant twisting his shoulders (dropping the left/raising the right) and I don't think the defender arm bar inhibits that. Actually looks like pass interference from that angle. No way to tell what that contact causes his body to do. In the end it still was a very catchable ball though, one he should have made... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoyBatty is alive Posted January 8, 2020 Share Posted January 8, 2020 (edited) On 1/6/2020 at 9:45 PM, Alphadawg7 said: There are two people on this board: Those who think Duke is a scrub because he played in the CFL. Those who see a guy who was going to be a first round pick before getting suspended who has upside and a skill set our other guys dont. There is no in between. There is no shifting anyone from one side to the other. Bottom line: Duke bashers were wrong, they wont ever admit it, but they were because they said he would never make the roster, let alone start or contribute. That doesn't mean Duke is a lock for next years roster or is our future savior at WR. It means, the kid has potential and he stuck around this long and made an impact at end of season for a reason. I think he will be here competing again next year. Whether or not he makes the team or where he is at on the depth chart I think will have a lot to do with what Beane does in both FA and Draft. If Beane just drafts a guy, Duke is going to have a good shot to not only be on the team, but likely open up camp competing to start with the rookie. If Beane both signs a guy like say AJ Green and also invests an early pick on a WR, then I think Duke is looking at competing for the 5th WR spot next year at best. People keep saying this, but they keep leaving out a key detail...he had not been in game shape at the combine after being cut from the team after the bar fight. He was faster than his 4.73 time...he still isn't blazing fast, and of course no where near DK, but he was always fast enough to get open in the NFL and has proven that. Alphadwag you contradict your own post. "There are two people on this board:" No there aren't. You yourself dont think he is a scrub nor elite. I dont think he is a scrub nor do i think he had the talent to be a first rd pick. PS Elite NFL Wrs make that catch, not shocked Duke didn't. Edited January 8, 2020 by RoyBatty is alive Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoBills808 Posted January 8, 2020 Share Posted January 8, 2020 On 1/7/2020 at 2:58 AM, billsfan1959 said: I really like Williams and his skill set. I think he should stay on this team, and I also think he could play an important role next year and beyond. However, IMO, he should have caught that ball. The DB got his hand on Williams' arm and, maybe, prevents Williams from pulling the ball in as he falls. But, IMO, Williams should have pulled that ball in before the DB got his hand in there. Just a bump to get this video back up in front. Poor technique leads to bad drop. Ask your local college wideout and he'll tell you the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alphadawg7 Posted January 8, 2020 Share Posted January 8, 2020 1 minute ago, RoyBatty is alive said: Alphadwag you contradict your own post. "There are two people on this board:" No there aren't. You yourself dont think he is a scrub nor elite. I dont think he is a scrub nor do i think he had the talent to be a first rd pick. No...I said scrub or a guy with "upside". Where did I say "elite"...confused how you took that statement to read that I said he is an "elite" player. I have supportive of Duke for a while, but never once have I claimed he is an elite player or even a bonafide starter. Its about potential and upside with him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alphadawg7 Posted January 8, 2020 Share Posted January 8, 2020 Just now, GoBills808 said: Just a bump to get this video back up in front. Poor technique leads to bad drop. Ask your local college wideout and he'll tell you the same. Why don't people post the videos of John Browns poor sideline technique that cost us 2 critical catches that could have been all the difference in the game? Or any of the easy catch drops Brown, Cole, Knox, and everyone else made this year for that matter? We led the NFL in dropped passes. This is a case where people have made their mind up about a particular player. So they obsess over a mistake while ignoring the positives to somehow prove their already decided opinion. Its what people do to Josh Allen all the time too. And in this case, it was a difficult pass where the DB also had hooked Dukes left arm during the catch attempt that he couldn't quite hang on to. It happens. I watched DeAndre Hopkins and Julio Jones drop an easy TD pass right in the numbers while all by themselves. It happens, yet Duke detractors are obsessing over this one difficult catch attempt as if it somehow proves he doesn't belong in the NFL. The reality is, Duke made some important catches and impressive ones too on Saturday, and a great one in a key moment that was also negated by a penalty that was total BS by the refs. No one is saying he is the next great WR in the NFL, but the detractors are just over the top here. I mean he did substantially more this year than Mckenzie and Foster combined despite only appearing in 5 games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoyBatty is alive Posted January 8, 2020 Share Posted January 8, 2020 5 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said: No...I said scrub or a guy with "upside". Where did I say "elite"...confused how you took that statement to read that I said he is an "elite" player. I have supportive of Duke for a while, but never once have I claimed he is an elite player or even a bonafide starter. Its about potential and upside with him. OK, my apology, i used shorthand, you wrote " who was going to be a first round pick ", to me first round pick is elite He is what he is, an NFL #2 or #3 wr. 8 minutes ago, GoBills808 said: Just a bump to get this video back up in front. Poor technique leads to bad drop. Ask your local college wideout and he'll tell you the same. Yep, most #1 WRs in the NFL make that catch, no doubt in my mind. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay_Fixit Posted January 8, 2020 Share Posted January 8, 2020 3 hours ago, GG said: Ay caramba. I don't mind arguing whether Duke should have made a better attempt to position the left side of his body for the catch, which he possibly could have. But please don't argue that Conley's defense came into play only after Duke touched the ball. Look at Conley's right arm in this shot. He is preventing Duke from elevating his left side, WELL before the ball got there. That's why he never got both hands on the ball. The only Ay Carumba here is you blaming this egregious drop on anyone other than D’Haquille. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoBills808 Posted January 8, 2020 Share Posted January 8, 2020 1 minute ago, Alphadawg7 said: Why don't people post the videos of John Browns poor sideline technique that cost us 2 critical catches that could have been all the difference in the game? Or any of the easy catch drops Brown, Cole, Knox, and everyone else made this year for that matter? We led the NFL in dropped passes. This is a case where people have made their mind up about a particular player. So they obsess over a mistake while ignoring the positives to somehow prove their already decided opinion. Its what people do to Josh Allen all the time too. And in this case, it was a difficult pass where the DB also had hooked Dukes left arm during the catch attempt that he couldn't quite hang on to. It happens. I watched DeAndre Hopkins and Julio Jones drop an easy TD pass right in the numbers while all by themselves. It happens, yet Duke detractors are obsessing over this one difficult catch attempt as if it somehow proves he doesn't belong in the NFL. The reality is, Duke made some important catches and impressive ones too on Saturday, and a great one in a key moment that was also negated by a penalty that was total BS by the refs. No one is saying he is the next great WR in the NFL, but the detractors are just over the top here. I mean he did substantially more this year than Mckenzie and Foster combined despite only appearing in 5 games. I have gone over the Brown incompletion, in great depth. There was zero reason for Duke Williams to have lead every receiver playing on wildcard weekend in targets. Not every Bills receiver- EVERY SINGLE RECEIVER PLAYING on wildcard weekend. Think about that for a second. I don't blame Williams for not catching this ball. He's not very good. That's why he was inactive the majority of the year. I can point out how he's technically flawed, and I can question why he was the focal point of the offense when he's clearly not deserving of it, and how that strategy basically cost the Bills the game, but I'm not blaming the guy for being the player he's been all year. There's little reason to expect him to be a difference maker and he wasn't. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alphadawg7 Posted January 8, 2020 Share Posted January 8, 2020 6 minutes ago, RoyBatty is alive said: OK, my apology, i used shorthand, you wrote " who was going to be a first round pick ", to me first round pick is elite He is what he is, an NFL #2 or #3 wr. He was a projected first round pick entering his senior year (with some buzz as the potentially the top WR in the draft)...but his final season was a disaster as we all know. Just meant, this wasn't some scrub college WR who had no NFL potential that went to CFL and found success. He was a legit prospect with high potential before his senior year turned into a disaster. Point was really just that the kid always had potential. But I agree with you on I think that potential is probably as a #2 or #3 WR right now. Sad part was we needed a #2 WR all year and neither Foster or McKenzie did anything and Duke crushed their stats combined despite just playing 5 games on the year. Wished they would have used him all season so they would at least know better what he could be week to week. My guess is he will be given every chance to make this roster next year, however, there will most likely be stiff competition from a highly drafted rookie and possible another mid-tier guy from FA (I dont expect Beane to make any high profile WR signings in FA based on his end of year PC). I have a hard time seeing both Foster and McKenzie being on this team next year. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alphadawg7 Posted January 8, 2020 Share Posted January 8, 2020 (edited) 9 minutes ago, GoBills808 said: I have gone over the Brown incompletion, in great depth. There was zero reason for Duke Williams to have lead every receiver playing on wildcard weekend in targets. Not every Bills receiver- EVERY SINGLE RECEIVER PLAYING on wildcard weekend. Think about that for a second. I don't blame Williams for not catching this ball. He's not very good. That's why he was inactive the majority of the year. I can point out how he's technically flawed, and I can question why he was the focal point of the offense when he's clearly not deserving of it, and how that strategy basically cost the Bills the game, but I'm not blaming the guy for being the player he's been all year. There's little reason to expect him to be a difference maker and he wasn't. So neither of John Browns failed catches he should have made from poor sideline technique didnt cost us the game too? One of them would have had us on the 3 yard line with a first down and a probable TD. I find it interesting, you are blaming the loss on Duke yet he didn't really make any big mistakes other than fail to come down with a catch that was of a high degree of difficulty while also being interfered with prior to ball getting to his hands and then having his left arm hooked by the DB during the catch attempt. Yet, there are many plays where other people made critical mistakes that basically directly lost us the game that were either much easier plays or just really stupid mistakes. Again, you are searching for reasons to prove your opinion rather than focusing on what REALLY lost us this game. Edited January 8, 2020 by Alphadawg7 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoBills808 Posted January 8, 2020 Share Posted January 8, 2020 Just now, Alphadawg7 said: So neither of John Browns failed catches he should have made from poor sideline technique didnt cost us the game too? One of them would have had us on the 3 yard line with a first down and a probable TD. I find it interesting, you are blaming the loss on Duke yet he didn't really make any big mistakes other than fail to come down with a catch that was of a high degree of difficulty. Yet, there are many plays where other people made critical mistakes that basically directly lost us the game that were either much easier plays or just really stupid mistakes. Again, you are searching for reasons to prove your opinion rather than focusing on what REALLY lost us this game. Those cost us the game too. And I'm sorry, but this is NOT a high degree of difficulty catch if Williams doesn't use awful technique. As a wideout you are taught to turn your shoulder inside to separate from DB and attack this pass up and through his contest. Instead he just allows DB leverage the whole way and tries to underhand the throw. That's bad technique. If you don't think this is 100% his mistake I don't know what to tell you. And yes of course other players made mistakes too. I'm talking about this one because that's what this thread is about. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billsfan1959 Posted January 8, 2020 Share Posted January 8, 2020 (edited) 22 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said: Why don't people post the videos of John Browns poor sideline technique that cost us 2 critical catches that could have been all the difference in the game? Or any of the easy catch drops Brown, Cole, Knox, and everyone else made this year for that matter? We led the NFL in dropped passes. This is a case where people have made their mind up about a particular player. So they obsess over a mistake while ignoring the positives to somehow prove their already decided opinion. Its what people do to Josh Allen all the time too. And in this case, it was a difficult pass where the DB also had hooked Dukes left arm during the catch attempt that he couldn't quite hang on to. It happens. I watched DeAndre Hopkins and Julio Jones drop an easy TD pass right in the numbers while all by themselves. It happens, yet Duke detractors are obsessing over this one difficult catch attempt as if it somehow proves he doesn't belong in the NFL. The reality is, Duke made some important catches and impressive ones too on Saturday, and a great one in a key moment that was also negated by a penalty that was total BS by the refs. No one is saying he is the next great WR in the NFL, but the detractors are just over the top here. I mean he did substantially more this year than Mckenzie and Foster combined despite only appearing in 5 games. I did. Here they are again. They were costly as well. I actually wasn't singling Duke out, or Brown, or other players in videos I posted since the game. The receiver videos actually began as a defense of all the talk about Allen and I wanted to show he made some great throws in that game that he didn't get credit for. But, even more so, I posted them only so that everyone contributing to the discussions could be looking at the same evidence, rather than discussing from memory. For the record, I am a fan of both Duke and Brown. And there were a lot of plays that cost us in that game. Plenty of blame to go around. Edited January 8, 2020 by billsfan1959 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Livinginthepast Posted January 8, 2020 Share Posted January 8, 2020 24 minutes ago, GoBills808 said: Just a bump to get this video back up in front. Poor technique leads to bad drop. Ask your local college wideout and he'll tell you the same. Local college wideout? Please don't stop there! Apparently it was such an easy pass against that puny 6ft DB (who is apparently legally blind and was just feeling around in the shadows for Duke) that several members of TBD would have easily caught that pass ONE HANDED. Duke just is a CFL scrub and is used to catching the CFL football which is made by NERF in a league where the DBs are one legged. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T master Posted January 8, 2020 Share Posted January 8, 2020 On 1/6/2020 at 9:36 PM, StHustle said: His left arm was hooked which forced an alligator arm attempt. There is NO QUESTION that he makes the catch if that didnt happen. In slow mo you can see he almost still made the grab. Great defense by the DB. Can we PLEASE put to bed the idea this was a drop??? On another note...why are you Duke haters so quick to label this guy as either a #5 or even not good enough to be in the league WHEN HE WAS A ROOKIE with very few games under his belt?? Why do top draft picks get the benefit of the doubt based on lack of experience when they are the ones supposed to be so much better than the undrafted guys? Seems undrafted guys are expected to kill it out the gate or they shouldnt be on the team. Duke has 5 NFL games under his belt. Lets compare his first 5 games to DK Metcalf who has a future HOF throwing to him and was the #2 guy on the roster: DK - 26 Targets 12 Receptions 2 TD 267 Yards DuKe- 29 Targets 16 Receptions 1 TD 215 Yards If Duke had Russell Wilson as his QB, who doubts Duke doesnt have just as good or better numbers than DK?? Let's be real here. Any way you look at it Foster sat out the game to activate Duke & i believe seeing as he caught half of his targets which were almost as many as Foster had all season that Duke proved to be much more of a asset on the field than Foster & much better on the field than on the bench !! Also Duke although being in the CFL is still a rookie basically in the NFL & if allowed to get better (which i think he will) could be a big + for Josh in the future, he adds another detention to the WR room & given the fact that the TE's are going to improve that should make the OC very happy inserting him into the line up full time !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BisonMan Posted January 8, 2020 Share Posted January 8, 2020 A few things on this thread: Awesome throw by Allen to give Duke a chance at that catch John Brown would have been out of the end zone by the time that pass to there ? Duke would have had to make a tough contested catch on that ball and, if he did, would have been all over ESPN that night. Most NFL receivers don't catch that ball with the DB hanging on them but a few elite ones do more than 50% of the time. DK Metcalf was a projected top 10 pick but fell to late in the 2nd round. It wasn't obvious to NFL GMs/Coaches that he was a top WR talent...but he obviously had the abs to be a top pick. ? Prior to being cut, Duke might have been a pre-draft darling to some but, like Metcalf, we don't know how the actual NFL would have drafted him. Much of the thoughts on Duke are in comparison to other Bills' receivers. That's a small and talent-limited pool. He doesn't compare to Beasley because he's not a dedicated slot WR. So, it's really just in comparison to Brown, et al. Not a great talent pool. The Bills obviously need to upgrade. I think, in comparison to the current roster, Williams should likely have gotten more opportunities to play. This is especially against blitz-happy defenses where you expect either quick separation or the ability to make contested catches. Beasley gets quick separation, the rest of the smurfs don't. I seriously wonder if the Bills coaching staff had "Kelvin Benjamin derangement syndrome" this year. Duke has a similar projection (Big body, wide catch radius, not fleet of foot) to KB. Given the abject failure of KB, is it any wonder that the Bills staff was none too keen to put another player like him on the field? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billsfan1959 Posted January 8, 2020 Share Posted January 8, 2020 1 hour ago, Alphadawg7 said: So neither of John Browns failed catches he should have made from poor sideline technique didnt cost us the game too? One of them would have had us on the 3 yard line with a first down and a probable TD. I find it interesting, you are blaming the loss on Duke yet he didn't really make any big mistakes other than fail to come down with a catch that was of a high degree of difficulty while also being interfered with prior to ball getting to his hands and then having his left arm hooked by the DB during the catch attempt. Yet, there are many plays where other people made critical mistakes that basically directly lost us the game that were either much easier plays or just really stupid mistakes. Again, you are searching for reasons to prove your opinion rather than focusing on what REALLY lost us this game. For me, the most disturbing play of the game was the QB sweep in overtime where Allen had three lead blockers and Knox and Morse fail to even try to block Cunningham. Had either one of them just put a shoulder on Cunningham, that game would have been over. Like I said in other posts, their is so much blame to go around in this game. However, I love where this team is headed. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Livinginthepast Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 (edited) 3 hours ago, billsfan1959 said: I did. Here they are again. They were costly as well. I actually wasn't singling Duke out, or Brown, or other players in videos I posted since the game. The receiver videos actually began as a defense of all the talk about Allen and I wanted to show he made some great throws in that game that he didn't get credit for. But, even more so, I posted them only so that everyone contributing to the discussions could be looking at the same evidence, rather than discussing from memory. For the record, I am a fan of both Duke and Brown. And there were a lot of plays that cost us in that game. Plenty of blame to go around. If Brown steps out before the ball arrives and then steps back in and catches it with two feet in, is it still a legal catch? Edited January 9, 2020 by Livinginthepast Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoBills808 Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 Just now, Livinginthepast said: If Brown steps out before the ball arrives and then steps back in and catches it with two feet in, is it still a catch? Can't be the first guy to touch live ball after going OB iirc...if the DB tips it before you touch it after going out then I think it's ok but could be wrong about that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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