Mitch Morse on Bills Offensive Identity: "Daboll is a Lunatic"

[TroutDog]

47 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

It's not about liking or disliking coaches at all.....I like Daboll as a native son of Buffalo and I appreciate McD's defensive acumen and his stewardship in general.

 

It's simply a discussion and my perspective is the results........while others are frankly,  a bunch of excuses.

 

Because there are no good results from Daboll's NFL OC career.

 

I know the reality is this:  if the offense isn't a lot better next September then the same fans that are going unnecessarily out of their way to defend Daboll will be calling for his replacement.

 

Hell if they aren't a lot better TOMORROW a lot of the same people will be declaring that they hope he gets the Cleveland job Sunday. 

 

I’d certainly understand the need for next year to show radical improvement but tomorrow may be a stretch. 
 

Lastly, when looking at his OC tenure, I think it’s important to look at the players he had: not much in any stop...and this year there are shortages that have been listed on this board ad nauseum. 
 

I appreciate your perspective, I just choose to look at the positive side: 10 wins. ? 

[BADOLBILZ]

3 minutes ago, TroutDog said:

I’d certainly understand the need for next year to show radical improvement but tomorrow may be a stretch. 
 

Lastly, when looking at his OC tenure, I think it’s important to look at the players he had: not much in any stop...and this year there are shortages that have been listed on this board ad nauseum. 
 

I appreciate your perspective, I just choose to look at the positive side: 10 wins. ? 

 

 

Oh if they go down scoring 13 points or something pathetic like that it's going to get ugly here tomorrow night.   

 

BFD will have a new meaning in Buffalo.

 

Hopefully they go back to playing "fearless" tomorrow instead of "fearful" the way they have the last month.

[TroutDog]

28 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I tend to disagree with BadOl a lot but he's Right On here.

 

Over and over again, when a team that's had a "meh" offense or defense improves dramatically with fundamentally the same personnel after coaching change, the players are asked what's different and their answer is some variation of "Coach X simplified the Playbook"

 

Daboll has a lot of plays where the players have to think.  They run one route variation if they see this, they run another if they see that.  When it works, it's great.  When it doesn't work, it's an opportunity for the QB to look like he's making an inaccurate throw 5 yds away from the WR and it means half as many reps on each route during practice.

 

Now add in what Daboll was doing early in the season where he was running the same plays with many different personnel packages,

I can appreciate this but believe there’s more to it than this, in my opinion. He needs to see what the guys can handle from a mental standpoint in addition to changing game plan game by game. 
 

Lastly, as I mentioned previously, there was basically zero continuity from last year to this including having missing pieces which we are all aware of. It takes time. 
 

Now, I have SERIOUS reservations about Daboll but I struggle with the fact that we are a 10 win team and screwing with continuity with a young QB makes me nervous for the future. There’s a tremendous amount riding on Josh and I’d like to see the apple cart have some stability. 

[Saxum]

4 hours ago, JR in Pittsburgh said:

“explosive” is a bit much, but he’s been better than Gore on catching balls out of the backfield. 

 

The only explosion with him is a dud.  I am not even sure why he is on roster.

[Saxum]

32 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

He offers more on the football field than Frank Gore does at this point.

 

Yelton had a reputation in Jacksonville of being fumbler with fans talking about (like fans here do about Bills) about the ones he was lucky not to lose but fans are often wrong who like writers form a position and refuse to change it.  I assumed when they signed him that like Isaiah McKenzie the Bills expected with better coaching the fumbling would improve.  BTW Frank has had 0 credited fumbles this year.

 

McKenzie is active most games and Yelton is active only when one of other RBs is hurt active only 6 games so I assume it did not work.

 

Now Gore is used as player to make the tough carries when Bills are trying to run out clock and for him to be wearing out defenses. I do not think Yelton is a good player for those carries.  Some have said Frank's legs have been dead since week 4 but stats have shown otherwise.  Like I said fans take a position and when facts do not match they ignore them or try to introduce subjective things which cannot be disproved.

 

Frank Gore Rushing & Receiving Statistics for Career Games 2007 to 2019

		Games		Rushing							Receiving										Total Yds
Year	Tm	G	GS	Att	Yds	TD	Lng	Y/A	Y/G	A/G	Tgt	Rec	Yds	Y/R	TD	Lng	R/G	Y/G	Ctch%	Y/Tgt	Touch	Y/Tch	YScm	RRTD	Fmb
Average		15.1	14.4	239.2	1003.4	5.2					43.8	30.2	252.3		1.3						269.3		1255.7	6.5	2.9
Per 16 Games		16	15	254	1065	6					47	32	268		1						286		1333	7	3
2007-2019	SFO,CLT,MIA,BUF	196	187	3109	13044	68	80	4.2	66.6	15.9	570	392	3280	8.4	17	55	2.0	16.7	68.8%	5.8	3501	4.7	16324	85	38

 

				Rush	Rush	Rush	Rush
Week		Opp	Result	Rush	Yds	Y/A	TD	TD
1	@	NYJ	W 17-16	11	20	1.82	0	0
2	@	NYG	W 28-14	19	68	3.58	1	1
3		CIN	W 21-17	14	76	5.43	1	1
4		NWE	L 10-16	17	109	6.41	0	0
5	@	TEN	W 14-7	14	60	4.29	0	0
7		MIA	W 31-21	11	55	5.00	0	0
8		PHI	L 13-31	9	34	3.78	0	0
9		WAS	W 24-9	11	15	1.36	0	0
10	@	CLE	L 16-19	5	12	2.40	0	0
11	@	MIA	W 37-20	11	27	2.45	0	0
12		DEN	W 20-3	15	65	4.33	0	0
13	@	DAL	W 26-15	9	11	1.22	0	0
14		BAL	L 17-24	4	6	1.50	0	0
15	@	PIT	W 17-10	10	15	1.50	0	0
16	@	NWE	L 17-24					0
17		NYJ	L 6-13	6	26	4.33	0	0

[dave mcbride]

5 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

You see that's part of the fan confusion.

 

It's the exact opposite, actually.

 

The more simplified offenses are easier to install and play fast.

 

What's tough with Daboll's offense is that it's so complicated that it's going to take a long time to get players completely comfortable..........ESPECIALLY the QB.

 

It's a lot like the situation with Rex Ryan defense.

 

Yes.........if everyone is on the same page Ryan's complex defense it can be suffocating.

 

But if not..........it can be disjointed and leave you talking about "it comes down to execution".

 

The difference is that on defense blown assignments tend to stand out immediately............on offense they manifest as inaccurate passes or missed reads etc..

 

With Daboll we are definitely taking that kind of circuitous route to offensive success,  IMO.

 

I'd like to believe that's a master plan but honestly I don't just trust that McD is really up to snuff on the offensive side of the ball.

 

This is the guy who hired Rick Dennison and Juan Castillo and had faith in Nathan Peterman multiple times.

 

I think he's guessing.

 

I hope he guesses right.

One difference between rex and daboll is that rex basically rolled out the same scheme week to week. Daboll, for better or worse, is a matchup guy (ie, altering schemes from week to week based on opponent) and frankly a lot more intelligent than Rex. He hasn’t had the success Rex did in fact have in Baltimore and NY though - at least not yet.

[Chaos]

11 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

I thought this might deserve its own thread

https://buffalonews.com/2020/01/03/buffalo-bills-nfl-houston-texans-cleveland-browns-brian-daboll-interview/

Jay Skurski, probably paywall, trial available

 

The Buffalo Bills’ center was asked about the idea that the team's only true identity on offense is that they don’t have an identity, and what that says about the coordinator.

“I think it says he's somewhat of a lunatic, you know what I mean?” Morse said.

Um, not exactly. That requires a little more explanation.

 

“Lunatic in a good way,” Morse said. “He's just nonstop football. Puts in ridiculous hours. Relays information, divulges information to the players that is pertinent, but understands how to do that in a way that he wants it to and it's about success.”
 

Morse has named us.  The Bills have the "Lunatic Offense"

 

I laughed until the dog and the neighbor's dog and the fam and the rabbit all came to see what was wrong with me.  The other neighbor's parrots probably started yelling "WHOOOO!" "Hey ey ey ey" and "Bills make me wanna SHOUT" as learnt during the Steelers game.

 

I mean, doesn't that just fit?  Here's the football analytics pundits.  Beane and the Bills are crazy to draft Josh Allen.  He's a joke of a first round pick.  "Numbers say" he has less than zero chance to succeed.   Lunatics!  Lunatics I tell you!

 

We have 2 returning starters on offense.  We're very young.  We have a young QB.  Logic says "KISS, baby, strip it down, keep it simple" 

Daboll is the Honey Badger, Honey Badger don't care.  You can DO this!  Yes, it's crazy to think so!  I'm a lunatic!  LETSGO!
 

"The Bills’ offense is ever-changing. One of Daboll’s go-to phrases deals with how the NFL is a week-to-week league.

“That’s how I’ve been brought up in the business,” he said Thursday as the Bills concluded their practice week ahead the AFC wild-card playoff game Saturday at Houston. “The defenses are different that you're going against. The schemes are different. You try to put together the best plan you can to try to win that game, whether it's run it a bunch, throw it a bunch. Different run schemes, different pass schemes, that's what we try to do. (....) We have our own style and our own system, but the philosophy behind game-plan (specific) offense is something that I really believe in,”
 

Morse is right.  Daboll is a lunatic.  A total genuine freakin' lunatic.

And then there's Josh Allen.  He's improved, but he can still look freakin' incompetent at times.  Then other times he pulls off ***** that no normal human should be able to pull off: "Oh my goodness!  The QB just....OUT AGGRESSIVED the entire defensive line!"  He makes throws that will spin your head around like Linda Blair on the Exorcist.  We have Knox, who makes 10/10 High Degree of Difficulty stuff then drops the Bunnies.    Our receiving corps is crazy: bunch of tiny Smurfs....who can strip the jocks right off the best DBs in the league.

 

The playoffs are this weekend, and here we are, #5 seed with a record equal to the division winner we'll face.  Here We Go!
 

Billy Joel said it:

 

If a cover version could change "Bedford Stuy" alone it would even make a pretty wicked Stadium Player Intro song, actually

This post is trying way to hard. 

[BADOLBILZ]

10 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

One difference between rex and daboll is that rex basically rolled out the same scheme week to week. Daboll, for better or worse, is a matchup guy (ie, altering schemes from week to week based on opponent) and frankly a lot more intelligent than Rex. He hasn’t had the success Rex did in fact have in Baltimore and NY though - at least not yet.

 

 

 

I pulled the Rex card. ???

 

 

[Saxum]

29 minutes ago, Chaos said:

This post is trying way to hard. 

 

This post did not try too hard at all.

[NoHuddleKelly12]

13 hours ago, dave mcbride said:

We know where you stand, and I respect your position, but your argument would be more powerful if you don't include the 2018 data in your assessment of Daboll given the truly abysmal talent. I know I sound like a broken record, but the offensive talent on the Bills in 2018 was the worst in my lifetime, and I include the Gary Marangi 1976 season. At least OJ was dominant that year. The 2018 team had a terrible line, terrible QB play, terrible WR play, terrible TE play, and terrible RB play.

And somehow we still got to 6 wins in 2018, to match the 2019 browns, who conversely had all the talent in the world! SMH...just goes to show you how much coaching matters 

[Success]

Fans were hard on Gilbride and Roman too.

[BobbyC81]

17 hours ago, ogham26 said:

daboll is pretty good.  if josh was connecting on the deep throws this year our offensive numbers would've looked amazing.  Hoping he stays.  hes the scapegoat for fans that don't really know all that much in my opinion.  

We don’t know what has been going on behind the scenes regarding the deep throws.  To my memory, Josh threw a couple up in the 1st New England game with pass rushers in his face that were picked off.  After that he’s been throwing them with less air under them and he’s overthrowing.  We’ve seen Daboll in the past quite animated on the sidelines with Josh after an INT.  Perhaps he lost it and told Josh not to put so much air under those throws and he adjusted and we’ve been seeing the results since.

 

You would think they’d practice the deep throws to perfection but maybe during a game Josh is trying too hard not to throw INTs.

[LyndonvilleBill]

So, we have The Lunatic and McNasty. Anything on Frazier yet??

[Chandler#81]

20 hours ago, BigBuff423 said:

In my opinion, Daboll gets far more vitriol on this board than he deserves. Reading various peoples' takes on his game planning and play-calling who have far more knowledge than I do, say he's done a hell of a job for this Offense given where they are in the rebuild process. If Daboll remains with the Bills and the Bills use some of their Cap space a couple important Draft picks on Offense, plus another year of Allen's development along with second year for Knox and Singletary, I'd say this becomes a very, very good Offense next season. 9 new starters on Offense this year....keep that in mind and remind yourself of a raw 2nd year QB and consider where they're at....it's pretty fricken good all things considered.

Completely agree. As to the vitriol, we have way more than our fair share of simple-folk here who conveniently forget there are 9 brand new starters on offense, Still learning how to play with each other while working in conjunction with a fine defense. WNY is a great place to grow up in. But it must be the weather. When you’re prohibited from stepping outside and inhaling deeply for 9 months a year, your brains get scrambled. Look/listen no further than call in guests on WGR. Thankfully, there’s plenty of Bills fans here who’ve chosen a more human-friendly environment to exist in and can usually counter unfounded gin mill arguments effectively. We will lose a tremendous amount of team chemistry if ‘local boy who moved away’ Daboll is snatched from us. 

[Thurman#1]

21 hours ago, BuffaloSol said:

Wow, I wish I could start my pre-gaming this early.... You should slow down so you can at least stay awake for the game, lol.

 

 

edit: realized this could be the Buffalo News guy.

 

 

 

 

No, it was hard to understand because no quotation marks were used, but everything from "Morse has named us," and on down was the (perhaps overcaffeinated or just plain hyper) Hapless.

 

But hey, of course he's a bit giddy. Me too, I'm going nuts. This year is the first since 2004 when the Bills looked like they had a chance not just to make the playoffs but to make a real impact there. In 2017, I thought it was a really nice feel-good story about Kyle but it was obvious that teams would be thrilled if seeds lined up so that they played the Bills. I didn't think for a minute that they were a good enough team to do any real damage there. This year just feels different. I don't see them making the Super Bowl. They're just not good enough. 

 

But they're legitimately good.

Edited January 4, 2020 by Thurman#1

[dave mcbride]

7 hours ago, NoHuddleKelly12 said:

And somehow we still got to 6 wins in 2018, to match the 2019 browns, who conversely had all the talent in the world! SMH...just goes to show you how much coaching matters 

The bills had a really good defense last season — #2 overall in defensive dvoa. Their offense was legit awful.

Edited January 4, 2020 by dave mcbride

[The Frankish Reich]

On 1/3/2020 at 7:54 AM, BigBuff423 said:

In my opinion, Daboll gets far more vitriol on this board than he deserves. Reading various peoples' takes on his game planning and play-calling who have far more knowledge than I do, say he's done a hell of a job for this Offense given where they are in the rebuild process. If Daboll remains with the Bills and the Bills use some of their Cap space a couple important Draft picks on Offense, plus another year of Allen's development along with second year for Knox and Singletary, I'd say this becomes a very, very good Offense next season. 9 new starters on Offense this year....keep that in mind and remind yourself of a raw 2nd year QB and consider where they're at....it's pretty fricken good all things considered.

Beane/McD/Daboll -- I don't know how to exactly apportion credit, but the fact is they took a really, really awful offense last year and turned it into a perfectly competent NFL unit that has the ability to get it done (albeit not consistently). And the fact that they did it without any big ticket additions outside of Morse is all the more impressive. 

[mjt328]

18 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

I tend to disagree with BadOl a lot but he's Right On here.

 

Over and over again, when a team that's had a "meh" offense or defense improves dramatically with fundamentally the same personnel after coaching change, the players are asked what's different and their answer is some variation of "Coach X simplified the Playbook"

 

Daboll has a lot of plays where the players have to think.  They run one route variation if they see this, they run another if they see that.  When it works, it's great.  When it doesn't work, it's an opportunity for the QB to look like he's making an inaccurate throw 5 yds away from the WR and it means half as many reps on each route during practice.

 

Now add in what Daboll was doing early in the season where he was running the same plays with many different personnel packages,

 

It's a great debate.  

Is it better to run a simplified scheme that is easy for players to understand, but also easy for opponents to figure out?

Or is it better to be complicated, and always have the defense on its toes?

 

 

18 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

There's two points here.  One is that the Patriots offense didn't start out as what we see now when Tom Brady was a young QB.  It was much less complex and has evolved.  The other is that the Patriots have incredible continuity at QB, other offensive personnel, and coaching.  Where they don't, they struggle.  It's not an accident that N'Keal Harry hasn't contributed as much as one would hope a 1st round pick would do.   The Patriots themselves are struggling with execution due in part to personnel change.

 

Very true on all points.  Early on, Brady was very much a game-manager, and the Patriots were not very explosive.

What increased over the years was their efficiency.  So instead of putting together 3-4 lengthy scoring drives per game, they could put together 6-7.

 

18 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

The second is that to say "the primary cause is usually players and execution" begs the question "why are pro players struggling so much with execution here"? 

Maybe they're bad players.  Or maybe they're not. 

Maybe they're having to think too much, which slows down a guy's reaction times just enough.

 

Maybe they're each having to read and react the same way, which increases the chances of SNAFUS if they aren't all on the same page

 

Probably a mix.

I think some players like John Brown and Cole Beasley will benefit from another offseason with Allen/Daboll.

A player like Knox drops passes because he wasn't a receiving threat in college, and needs to work on his hands.

 

18 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

I think you're kind of mixing cause and effect here.  If Allen has more reliable targets and better protection, his completion percentage will increase.  Yes, he misses throws, but see Kollsman's analysis of the Ravens game and why Allen's completion percentage was so low.

 

It's a mix of everything.  I'm extremely excited about Allen's potential future, and his improvement over the season.

But I can't pretend he's anywhere close where he needs to be.  At this point, I still think he ranks in the mid-20s against other NFL quarterbacks.  When an offense struggles, the quarterback is a great place to start.  And Allen is still a below average starter.  Not a finished product by any means.  But a lot of our problems are absolutely on him.

 

When it comes to Daboll, an argument can be made that he needs to adjust/simplify his scheme to better fit these players.

But an argument can also be made that Allen (and the rest of the team) will be better in the long-run by NOT making it easy.