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Antonio

My 2 cents on the deep balls

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Good morning to the best fan base in the NFL!!

 

I just want to give my opinion on why I think there have been so many missed opportunities when taking deep shots, or maybe my take as how they can get it fix.

This is just my opinion, not bashing Josh or the WOs, they all need to do better.

 

Just as the Bills, I have the privilege of coaching a strong arm QB but is also a little off sometimes, so I always teach my WOs to help their QB with a small but simple solution. When running deep patterns I want them to always push downfield as much as they can instead of crossing (post) or going to the sideline (corner), so after the break when you gain that step on the DB instead of going 45° to either side, I teach them to keep pushing forward and slightly going to their patter. This helps the QB so that he doesn’t have to make the perfect throw and if it is a little off it is easier for the WO to adjust towards the ball. This helps especially with fast WOs like Brown and Foster. Even when you are crossing form the back side of the play to the front, it is better to go up so you can always keep the ball in front of you.

 

If you watch some of the misses this last game, you can see that when the ball is thrown it seems like the WOs have a hard time adjusting to get to the ball. The first one to Brown the ball ended in his wrong shoulder (maybe Josh thought he was going to keep going straight, maybe the wind moved it, maybe just a bad throw) but if Brown pushed downfield he would have been able to adjust to that pass easily. I saw the same thing with the one to Foster in the 2nd series and one more to Knox in the 3rd one.

 

I know, there is no excuse, Josh needs to do a better job with ball placement (better arch and touch), but this is a way they can help him succeed in the meantime.

 

I wish I could post some video, but I don´t know how I can draw on it, but I will try latter on.

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No I was thinking this exact thing last night.  On the Brown and Knox throws it looked like they could've gotten up under it if they weren't fading to one side or the other.  On the Beasley throw, he or Josh or both of them have to realize that Beasley had a clean break to the outside, and if Josh throws it anywhere in that vicinity, Beasley has a ton of room to make the catch easily (I call these KC Chiefs plays).  Instead, Josh throws it over top, which is a much lower percentage, and Beasley is no where near it.  Noticing these things just made it more frustrating to me, because then it seems it's not just a QB problem, but an overall problem with him and his receivers, understanding angles, depth of coverage, when to throw, when to look for it, etc.

Edited by BringBackFlutie
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The problem is Josh overthrows his targets most of the time.

 

Our receivers can't get to his passes. 

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Im ok with the over throw....its normal.

 

What im not ok with is the lack of loft on his deep passes...hes just putting it on a line, so there is no adjustment opportunity for the WR.

 

Granted we dont have the greatest of 50/50 ball WRs....but if any WR has a step on their defender Allen needs to put loft on the ball and hope the WR can see it and get to it.

 

Just as a side note...it was windy as heck Sunday wasnt it? Maybe putting loft isnt the best idea.

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2 minutes ago, Ramza86 said:

Im ok with the over throw....its normal.

 

What im not ok with is the lack of loft on his deep passes...hes just putting it on a line, so there is no adjustment opportunity for the WR.

 

Granted we dont have the greatest of 50/50 ball WRs....but if any WR has a step on their defender Allen needs to put loft on the ball and hope the WR can see it and get to it.

 

Just as a side note...it was windy as heck Sunday wasnt it? Maybe putting loft isnt the best idea.

Hopefully him and Jordan Palmer can work on it this offseason. 

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11 minutes ago, jrober38 said:

The problem is Josh overthrows his targets most of the time.

 

Our receivers can't get to his passes. 

No. The problem is Allen isn’t even throwing with the right trajectory and his targets have the wing spans of sixth graders. It’s a bad combination. 

 

Allen will have to work on his part and Beane will need to find him a guy over six feet tall. 

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14 minutes ago, jrober38 said:

The problem is Josh overthrows his targets most of the time.

 

Our receivers can't get to his passes. 

 

Exactly, the problem with his deep ball is that he normally overthrows his WOs, so a way to help him is to push downfield so that the window is biger, more marginf of error if you will. 

 

Of course if it is just a GO rout there is no way to help LOL

7 minutes ago, Ramza86 said:

Im ok with the over throw....its normal.

 

What im not ok with is the lack of loft on his deep passes...hes just putting it on a line, so there is no adjustment opportunity for the WR.

 

Granted we dont have the greatest of 50/50 ball WRs....but if any WR has a step on their defender Allen needs to put loft on the ball and hope the WR can see it and get to it.

 

Just as a side note...it was windy as heck Sunday wasnt it? Maybe putting loft isnt the best idea.

 

It is, as long as you have the window to throw it, in this plays there was room to put air under the throw, but because they faded too much to one side or the other the margin of error was too small. 

20 minutes ago, BringBackFlutie said:

No I was thinking this exact thing last night.  On the Brown and Knox throws it looked like they could've gotten up under it if they weren't fading to one side or the other.  On the Beasley throw, he or Josh or both of them have to realize that Beasley had a clean break to the outside, and if Josh throws it anywhere in that vicinity, Beasley has a ton of room to make the catch easily (I call these KC Chiefs plays).  Instead, Josh throws it over top, which is a much lower percentage, and Beasley is no where near it.  Noticing these things just made it more frustrating to me, because then it seems it's not just a QB problem, but an overall problem with him and his receivers, understanding angles, depth of coverage, when to throw, when to look for it, etc.

 

Me too! I can´t belive we can see this things on tape just as a hobby. Why can´t they prepare or it?! Specially with windy conditions, you know you are not going to get the ball to where you expect it some times.  

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I went back and watched Josh's Pro Day on Monday.  Watch his deep throws on that, it appears to be a common problem for him.   I am not sure its something he is going to be able to fix.

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9 minutes ago, CommonCents said:

No. The problem is Allen isn’t even throwing with the right trajectory and his targets have the wing spans of sixth graders. It’s a bad combination. 

 

Allen will have to work on his part and Beane will need to find him a guy over six feet tall. 

 

True, but thats the QB you have to work with, so in the meantime he corrects it how do you help him?

 

You have to be able to gameplan for that. 

 

In my football team we double our Offensive production form one season to another with this small adjustment (same players and same teams we played).

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1 minute ago, thenorthremembers said:

I went back and watched Josh's Pro Day on Monday.  Watch his deep throws on that, it appears to be a common problem for him.   I am not sure its something he is going to be able to fix.

 

Lanky, athletic receivers can fix a lot.

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This is where I openly wonder if the height and longer reach of Duke Williams would be beneficial. I'm not saying one guy fixes everything, but could it hurt as a short term fix? 

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18 minutes ago, Ramza86 said:

Im ok with the over throw....its normal.

What im not ok with is the lack of loft on his deep passes...hes just putting it on a line, so there is no adjustment opportunity for the WR.

Granted we dont have the greatest of 50/50 ball WRs....but if any WR has a step on their defender Allen needs to put loft on the ball and hope the WR can see it and get to it.

Just as a side note...it was windy as heck Sunday wasnt it? Maybe putting loft isnt the best idea.

 

Some years back I saw an interview with Jim Kelly back when we had Fitzy at QB.  Fitzy was struggling to complete deep balls (the opposite problem) and Kelly said that he had a conversation with Fitzpatrick about exactly that point - the winds in New Era (he called it "the Ralph") require you to throw the ball more on a line and with less arc to cut through them.

 

So yes, I think the people clamoring for more arc and less line may have the wrong solution.

 

I think any successful real life deep ball requires that the WR be able to release cleanly and track the ball well enough to adjust on it.

 

IOW in my opinion, the OP has a point.

 

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12 minutes ago, otagoyellow said:

This is where I openly wonder if the height and longer reach of Duke Williams would be beneficial. I'm not saying one guy fixes everything, but could it hurt as a short term fix? 

 

No, not on deep balls.  I love Williams gamer spirit but the guy is a veritable Snail on Speed.  It would be worse than having Zay Jones run those routes.  And just to clarify, I'm with Kelly the Dog on his assessment of that assignment as a Bad Plan, a Very Bad Plan.  I think his words were "he is not fleet of foot nor sure handed"

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Just now, otagoyellow said:

This is where I openly wonder if the height and longer reach of Duke Williams would be beneficial. I'm not saying one guy fixes everything, but could it hurt as a short term fix? 

 

Not exactly, the problem to this plays (the 3 that I mention) is more about ball placement and rout running. There was a problem with both those things, the WOs didnt even touched the ball. 

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4 minutes ago, thenorthremembers said:

I went back and watched Josh's Pro Day on Monday.  Watch his deep throws on that, it appears to be a common problem for him.   I am not sure its something he is going to be able to fix.

 

Watching his combine throws, I noticed the opposite.  He hit a lot of his deep balls.  What he tends to need, though, is enough time for the guy to get 65 yards downfield so he can max out his arm strength and get a ton of loft under it.  His biggest problem is just adjusting.  That will come with time with different receivers, but it helps immensely to have WRs who can track the deep ball, as well as using deep patterns other than go routes (with which he seems to do fine).  Watch the other QBs in the league who regularly complete these passes- the WR has 5-10 yards of separation and the ball is often a bit under or overthrown, but there's room to adjust, or the WR runs a deep breaking route where the QB is able to simply throw it in the vicinity and the WR runs to it with a free release.  So, three things- more deep breaking routes, less fading on the go routes with Josh learning to under throw a bit, and, last but not least- WRs who can track the deep ball.  

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27 minutes ago, CommonCents said:

No. The problem is Allen isn’t even throwing with the right trajectory and his targets have the wing spans of sixth graders. It’s a bad combination. 

 

Allen will have to work on his part and Beane will need to find him a guy over six feet tall. 

 

Dawson Knox and Robert Foster are both over 6 feet tall.

 

Both were overthrown by 5 yards last Sunday on what should have been easy touchdowns.

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41 minutes ago, jrober38 said:

The problem is Josh overthrows his targets most of the time.

 

Our receivers can't get to his passes. 

Yes, most of the time.  The OP said that this was intended to help some of the throws.  Completing an extra deep ball or two can be the difference between a super bowl and not making the playoffs

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25 minutes ago, Antonio said:

 

Exactly, the problem with his deep ball is that he normally overthrows his WOs, so a way to help him is to push downfield so that the window is biger, more marginf of error if you will. 

 

I don't think this makes much sense.

 

The shortest route from point A (the QB) to point B (where the ball lands) is a straight line.

 

Pushing farther up field in an attempt to round their route off isn't going to accomplish anything if they already can't get to the ball running in a straight line.

 

If Allen was under throwing these passes, this would make sense, but there's nothing you can do to a route to make things work if the QB is consistently throwing the ball 5 yards too far. 

1 minute ago, NewEra said:

Yes, most of the time.  The OP said that this was intended to help some of the throws.  Completing an extra deep ball or two can be the difference between a super bowl and not making the playoffs

 

100%.

 

I'd guess Allen has missed 8-10 deep balls to guys running free behind the coverage this year.

 

He missed three of them in the first quarter against the Ravens alone.

 

Those 8-10 plays likely would have resulted in a bunch of touchdowns. 

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2 minutes ago, jrober38 said:

 

I don't think this makes much sense.

 

The shortest route from point A (the QB) to point B (where the ball lands) is a straight line.

 

Pushing farther up field in an attempt to round their route off isn't going to accomplish anything if they already can't get to the ball running in a straight line.

 

If Allen was under throwing these passes, this would make sense, but there's nothing you can do to a route to make things work if the QB is consistently throwing the ball 5 yards too far. 

 

I think you are having trouble comprehending the OP.  This is what he said:

When running deep patterns I want them (the WR) to always push downfield as much as they can instead of crossing (post) or going to the sideline (corner), so after the break when you gain that step on the DB instead of going 45° to either side, I teach them to keep pushing forward and slightly going to their patter(n). This helps the QB so that he doesn’t have to make the perfect throw and if it is a little off it is easier for the WO to adjust towards the ball. This helps especially with fast WOs like Brown and Foster. Even when you are crossing form the back side of the play to the front, it is better to go up so you can always keep the ball in front of you.

 

The OP is suggesting that the WR follow a straight line in their routes, not that they round them off.

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3 minutes ago, jrober38 said:

 

I don't think this makes much sense.

 

The shortest route from point A (the QB) to point B (where the ball lands) is a straight line.

 

Pushing farther up field in an attempt to round their route off isn't going to accomplish anything if they already can't get to the ball running in a straight line.

 

If Allen was under throwing these passes, this would make sense, but there's nothing you can do to a route to make things work if the QB is consistently throwing the ball 5 yards too far. 

 

100%.

 

I'd guess Allen has missed 8-10 deep balls to guys running free behind the coverage this year.

 

He missed three of them in the first quarter against the Ravens alone.

 

Those 8-10 plays likely would have resulted in a bunch of touchdowns. 

The current problem the QB is having isn’t going to be solved overnight.  While we wait for him to try and resolve his deep ball issues, the next best thing is to coach up the WOs to see if they can be the difference in a complete pass or not

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Just now, NewEra said:

The current problem the QB is having isn’t going to be solved overnight.  While we wait for him to try and resolve his deep ball issues, the next best thing is to coach up the WOs to see if they can be the difference in a complete pass or not

 

Again, how do you coach someone to run faster?

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