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Billsfan1972

New England's Pass Defense - Not an excuse for Josh, but an explanation

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3 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

Yep...we won the game too.

He'll get there I believe. Not going to happen overnight. 

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Just now, pop gun said:

He'll get there I believe. Not going to happen overnight. 

 

I certainly hope so.

 

I'm not giving up on him but this past game left a bad taste in my mouth....along with the inconsistent play in the first 3 games too.  

 

 

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

I certainly hope so.

 

I'm not giving up on him but this past game left a bad taste in my mouth....along with the inconsistent play in the first 3 games too.  

 

 

Sure, he wasn't very good but I think the Pats top shelf defense plus the mastermind that is Belichick and the huge ???? that I think Daboll is, contributed very very heavily to Joshes struggles on sunday.

 

That said is why I said his offense still outscored Bradys. 

 

Bad games happen even to the best of them, Brady on sunday. 

Edited by pop gun

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Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, jrober38 said:

 

You can't criticize Allen when he plays poorly. He's obviously on his way to being a franchise QB. 


It’s maddening. People are just so desperate for his kid to be our franchise QB that it’s tough to always be objective.
 

He was horrible Sunday. Bills fans were hyping this game up to the moon and were hoping this was going to be Allen’s coming out party for the world to see and he ended up looking like 💩
 

Every week so far we’ve seen some really bad bonehead plays/turnovers and every week people keep saying he’ll learn from it. Well, 4 weeks now and we keep seeing the same things. At what point are we actually allowed to be concerned about his decision making and ball security? I doubt anyone here expected Allen to be tied for the league lead in interceptions 4 weeks into the season. 
 

I don’t want Allen to fail, far from it actually, and I don’t think his play Sunday means he’s destined to fail. But we can at least be objective about what we’re seeing.

Edited by Bangarang
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2 hours ago, Billsfan1972 said:

Big Ben - 27-47 1 Int, 3 total points

Miami - 18-39, 4 Ints  Shutout

NYJ - 12-22, 98 yards, 1 int, 0 points.....

 

Allen made bad mistakes, threw some terrible passes too and looked like little separation and we know Zay can't adjust or fight for a ball (i.e. two ints).

 

Maybe their defense is pretty good?

 

A couple points:

 

1. So he played worse than Big Ben and about the same as Ryan/Fitz, Josh Rosen and Luke Falk. That is the expectation?

2. Eye Test Counts for something - There were some terrible decisions. 

3. The first three games count too and those were not good enough. I can buy this if he was lights out vs other teams and had a tough day vs NE. 

 

I feel like threads like this are trying to say "there is nothing to see here, he is awesome and supposed to struggle vs NE". We are setting the bar way too low and making justifications for bad play. I am not saying you give up on Josh Allen but just being real that he has a long way to go. Hopefully the coaches and people around him are able to do their job and help him develop. He is still a big project. 

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Posted (edited)
2 minutes ago, Bangarang said:


It’s maddening. People are just so desperate for his kid to be our franchise QB that it’s impossible for some to accept reality.
 

He was horrible Sunday. Bills fans were hyping this game up to the moon and were hoping this was going to be Allen’s coming out party for the world to see and he ended up looking like 💩
 

Every week so far we’ve seen some really bad bonehead plays/turnovers and every week people keep saying he’ll learn from it. Well, 4 weeks now and we keep seeing the same things. At what point do are we actually allowed to actually criticize or be concerned about his decision making and ball security? I doubt anyone here expected Allen to be tied for the league lead in interceptions 4 weeks into the season. 
 

I don’t want Allen to fail, far from it actually, and I don’t think his play Sunday means he’s destined to fail. But we can at least be objective about what we’re seeing.

 

There's no objectivity. 

 

Allen is 33rd in the NFL in passer rating and people are saying we shouldn't be concerned about his play.

 

I want him to work out, but the decision making and difficulty he has completing simple passes is beyond frustrating. 

 

He's not a rookie anymore, regardless how many people want to try and pretend he is. He can't keep making so many boneheaded mistakes every game. 

Edited by jrober38

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2 hours ago, JoPar_v2 said:

Their defense didn’t cause him to under- and overthrow open receivers by 5 yards. Not the first week he’s done that either. 

 

He also blatantly ignored wide open check-downs to chuck interceptions downfield

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There are too many promising QBs coming out of college in the next couple of years to waste time on Allen if he continues the way he's been going.

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12 minutes ago, pop gun said:

Sure, he wasn't very good but I think the Pats top shelf defense plus the mastermind that is Belichick and the huge ???? that I think Daboll is, contributed very very heavily to Joshes struggles on sunday.

 

That said is why I said his offense still outscored Bradys. 

 

Bad games happen even to the best of them, Brady on sunday. 

 

The Pats defense was great.  They've been essentially great since the last 8-9 games which gives me relief.

 

I'm putting more blame on Allen then Daboll.  Josh missed open WR, took the wrong read, continues to throw into double coverage and continues to play hero ball....

Yes Brady struggled but he didn't put his team in bad position time after time.

 

Allen is young, I'm not giving up on him.  But so far this year, he's had inconsistent 3 games and 1 really bad game.

This offense is disappearing on too many stretches.

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25 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

I certainly hope so.

 

I'm not giving up on him but this past game left a bad taste in my mouth....along with the inconsistent play in the first 3 games too.  

 

 

i think if you look at the first 3 games as a whole he was pretty darn solid.... he had one really bad int in those games and was fairly efficient. he was spear heading a top ten yardage offense and they were top 5 in redzone %. 

 

there is no excuse for what he did this last week though. i don't care how good the pass d was. those throws were mind blowingly awful.

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5 minutes ago, Stank_Nasty said:

i think if you look at the first 3 games as a whole he was pretty darn solid.... he had one really bad int in those games and was fairly efficient. he was spear heading a top ten yardage offense and they were top 5 in redzone %. 

 

there is no excuse for what he did this last week though. i don't care how good the pass d was. those throws were mind blowingly awful.

 

I was overall encouraged the first 3 games but I do have concerns where our offense disappears for long stretches.  

Last week was EJ Manuel bad and Allen isn't a rookie anymore.

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2 hours ago, Royale with Cheese said:

Their defense is really good but we traded up for Allen so we can have a QB that can compete with them.  Allen wasn't that guy on Sunday.  

All 16 of New England's were on turnovers.  10 of those points were on Allen's turnovers.

Slight quibble. 9 of those points were on Allen turnovers. Our offense actually out scored theirs. As bad as Allen was, it was one poor special teams play that beat us, ultimately. 

 

Allen crapped the bed in the first half, but turned it around a bit in the second, the INT in the third quarter notwithstanding (it should have been overturned, imo). 

 

The real test test comes when we see how he responds to a bad game. 

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Allen has 3TDs and 6 INT through 4 games. That's not even top 25 numbers. I love the kid, but he's experiencing some 2nd year setbacks. Mayfield has had some problems too but Chubb bailed him out. As much as Gore has exceeded expectations, he is not a workhorse and can not carry an offense on his shoulders.

 

I send some of this blame to DaBoll for putting Josh in some bad plays and not being creative enough. Look at Pitt last night. Their offense awoke with the creative use of Samuels. Daboll did nothing on Sunday vs NE to keep them on their toes. He sh*t the bed in front of his mentor. This offense needs to wake up and get creative. We have the overall talent. 

 

I'm still pissed we didn't keep Shady. A Shady/Gore 1-2 punch with Devin would have been lethal. Never give away your playmakers, especially when they bought into the system. 

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Objectivity is multiple threads comparing Allen to EJ Manuel, JP Losman, and Trent Edwards. 

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1 hour ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Gilmore sucks

I know that’s sarcasm, but that said, I wouldn’t say Gilmore shut anyone down on Sunday. He’s lucky Allen didn’t see Brown on the crossing pattern he toasted Gilmore on when Allen chose to go long to Jones instead. It was clear sailing for Brown and would have pit him over 100 yards for the day. 

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2 hours ago, Billsfan1972 said:

Big Ben - 27-47 1 Int, 3 total points

Miami - 18-39, 4 Ints  Shutout

NYJ - 12-22, 98 yards, 1 int, 0 points.....

 

Allen made bad mistakes, threw some terrible passes too and looked like little separation and we know Zay can't adjust or fight for a ball (i.e. two ints).

 

Maybe their defense is pretty good?

 

 

This is the measuring stick....really?

 

Pitt- Ben- It is very much looking like that was his last season opener he'll start in his career. And a good chance he retires this year. God knows he has been talking about it long enough. Rudolph looks ready to take over, but there is still a lot of football to play.

MIA- They are literally trying to lose games

NYJ- Luke Falk- 2nd year player--6th round pick--on his 3rd team in about 500 days- back up to the back up QB-- making his first ever NFL start. 

 

As fans we can scream and cheer for JA until our eyes bleed, and still be concerned about his level of play or progression. We don't have to change the metrics for what good QB play is. 

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21 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Objectivity is multiple threads comparing Allen to EJ Manuel, JP Losman, and Trent Edwards. 

 

To be fair, he has also been compared to Brett Favre and John Elway somewhat recently too. If he wins the next game he will be the next Elway and if he loses he will be the next Manuel. Who needs a middle ground? 😞

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Just now, Reader said:

 

To be fair, he has also been compared to Brett Favre and John Elway somewhat recently too. If he wins the next game he will be the next Elway and if he loses he will be the next Manuel. Who needs a middle ground? 😞

 

OK but who are these people who follow football and the Bills who feel so compelled to be arbiters of objectivity? If a Bills fan falls on one side of the objectivity fence wrt Allen, why shouldn't it be on the positive side? WTF is the point of upholding this sacred objectivity as it pertains to Bills football at the expense of fans who want to be optimistic? 

 

I think it's hilarious how many people get on these messageboards after a loss/bad performance to complain about how terrible everything is, but what's even more funny to me are the folks who feel compelled to point out how the negative takes are somehow necessary in order to maintain 'objectivity'. 

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39 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

 

OK but who are these people who follow football and the Bills who feel so compelled to be arbiters of objectivity? If a Bills fan falls on one side of the objectivity fence wrt Allen, why shouldn't it be on the positive side? WTF is the point of upholding this sacred objectivity as it pertains to Bills football at the expense of fans who want to be optimistic? 

 

I think it's hilarious how many people get on these messageboards after a loss/bad performance to complain about how terrible everything is, but what's even more funny to me are the folks who feel compelled to point out how the negative takes are somehow necessary in order to maintain 'objectivity'. 

You act like people haven't been saying the same things about him since the draft. I watched a bunch of his college games and it was the same thing, so I've never liked the pick. I can admit that it looks like I was really wrong about Rosen though. Differing opinions is why this board is great. I personally love objective takes even if I don't show it, fandom is so passionate that it helps to get a level perspective. Just look at the people saying BB called out a hit on Allen and then talking about how his defense shut Allen down. Why would a guy have someone hurt if he was owning them all game? It has to be from a passionate and not objective place. In my opinion the defense of Allen seems unusually aggressive. 

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1 hour ago, Bangarang said:


It’s maddening. People are just so desperate for his kid to be our franchise QB that it’s tough to always be objective.
 

He was horrible Sunday. Bills fans were hyping this game up to the moon and were hoping this was going to be Allen’s coming out party for the world to see and he ended up looking like 💩
 

Every week so far we’ve seen some really bad bonehead plays/turnovers and every week people keep saying he’ll learn from it. Well, 4 weeks now and we keep seeing the same things. At what point are we actually allowed to be concerned about his decision making and ball security? I doubt anyone here expected Allen to be tied for the league lead in interceptions 4 weeks into the season. 
 

I don’t want Allen to fail, far from it actually, and I don’t think his play Sunday means he’s destined to fail. But we can at least be objective about what we’re seeing.

Yup.  I hated the Allen pick but I have grown to love him as a person.  But he gets treated with kid gloves here. I don’t know any recent qb who has gotten as much of a pass as him.  There were plenty of posters who laughed at Lamar Jackson and said he was a rb playing qb. Well, Lamar right now looks like a better passer than Allen.  

 

Allen without a doubt gets the season.  He has shown improvement in the short game.  But he is the highest drafted qb in Bills history.  We should have higher expectations for him.  Right now, he is a running qb with a cannon.  He needs to be a mobile qb who wins from the pocket. 

9 minutes ago, Trogdor said:

You act like people haven't been saying the same things about him since the draft. I watched a bunch of his college games and it was the same thing, so I've never liked the pick. I can admit that it looks like I was really wrong about Rosen though. Differing opinions is why this board is great. I personally love objective takes even if I don't show it, fandom is so passionate that it helps to get a level perspective. Just look at the people saying BB called out a hit on Allen and then talking about how his defense shut Allen down. Why would a guy have someone hurt if he was owning them all game? It has to be from a passionate and not objective place. In my opinion the defense of Allen seems unusually aggressive. 

IMO, it’s pretty impossible to give a fair evaluation on Rosen with the dog 💩 is in.  

 

I just want Allen to be more consistent.  

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1 minute ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

 IMO, it’s pretty impossible to give a fair evaluation on Rosen with the dog 💩 is in.  

 

I just want Allen to be more consistent.  

Rosen is the new David Carr/Matt Schaub, just pummelled into submission. 

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2 hours ago, Bangarang said:


It’s maddening. People are just so desperate for his kid to be our franchise QB that it’s tough to always be objective.
 

He was horrible Sunday. Bills fans were hyping this game up to the moon and were hoping this was going to be Allen’s coming out party for the world to see and he ended up looking like 💩
 

Every week so far we’ve seen some really bad bonehead plays/turnovers and every week people keep saying he’ll learn from it. Well, 4 weeks now and we keep seeing the same things. At what point are we actually allowed to be concerned about his decision making and ball security? I doubt anyone here expected Allen to be tied for the league lead in interceptions 4 weeks into the season. 
 

I don’t want Allen to fail, far from it actually, and I don’t think his play Sunday means he’s destined to fail. But we can at least be objective about what we’re seeing.


Yup.


This whole making excuses and ‘yea but...’ line of reasoning is getting a bit ridiculous. Josh Allen played badly Sunday, end of. In fact it was his worst performance as a Bill. The Bills had a chance to win if he didn’t play so poorly. He would probably say that. The Bills coaches would probably say that. I don’t think we as fans need to come up with excuses for his play so that we can justify him still being a franchise QB for the Bills. I think most fans want him to be that guy but you can’t sugar coat how he played on Sunday.

 

Let’s see how he responds. That will tell much more than trying to contort ourselves into some position that makes sense of his play.

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12 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

  

 

Allen without a doubt gets the season.  He has shown improvement in the short game.  But he is the highest drafted qb in Bills history.  We should have higher expectations for him.  Right now, he is a running qb with a cannon.  He needs to be a mobile qb who wins from the pocket. 

 

the first 3 games he was absolutely not that... my goodness people have short memories.

 

i agree we NEED more. but come on man.

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