John Warrow’s High Praise For Beane & McDermott Regime

[GunnerBill]

13 minutes ago, Cripple Creek said:

I asked him about the playoff appearance and he indeed spun it negative.  This thread is too long, probably back in the 30's, but it's there.

 

If someone has honestly tried to portray the Bills making the playoffs in 2017 as a bad thing they are an idiot. I remain skeptical that anyone has really done that.

[oldmanfan]

3 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

If someone has honestly tried to portray the Bills making the playoffs in 2017 as a bad thing they are an idiot. I remain skeptical that anyone has really done that.

Maybe not a bad thing but there are certainly folks here that are negative about it

[GunnerBill]

2 minutes ago, Magox said:

 

I don't know how you define negative but implying that the Bills got into the playoffs by virtue of luck minimizes their 9 victories.  My dad always used to tell me that it's a funny thing that the usually the good are the luckiest ones.   It's an idiom that basically says that often times in order to capitalize on some luck you have to put yourself in a position to be lucky. 

 

 If the Bills had the sort of season that everyone thought they'd have or won one less game, doesn't matter what Cincinnati would have done it wouldn't have mattered to them.  So for all those that characterize or attempt to minimize the Bills finally getting into the playoffs after nearly 2 decades with a seriously depleted team when no one gave them a shot is a tremendous feat that is lost upon the detractors.    

 

 

 

It can be, and indeed I submit was, both a tremendous feat and at the same time lucky. I don't think that minimizes any of their 9 victories at all - and indeed as I said above - at worst every other year there is a team that I would categorise as getting a bit lucky. Whether it is the 7-9 division winning Seahawks, the chip shot missed Chargers or the frankly awful Dolphins team that rode Matt Moore to a playoff berth. The Bills shouldn't be ashamed that in 2017 it was them. It was about time the bounce of the ball went out way in that critical moment and there are plenty of detailed metrics that suggest the 2004 team and the 2014 team were both really unlucky not to get in. When you get in having won 9 games as a wildcard so often there is an element of luck involved. That is just the league.

4 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

Maybe not a bad thing but there are certainly folks here that are negative about it

 

Negative in what way?

[oldmanfan]

5 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

It can be, and indeed I submit was, both a tremendous feat and at the same time lucky. I don't think that minimizes any of their 9 victories at all - and indeed as I said above - at worst every other year there is a team that I would categorise as getting a bit lucky. Whether it is the 7-9 division winning Seahawks, the chip shot missed Chargers or the frankly awful Dolphins team that rode Matt Moore to a playoff berth. The Bills shouldn't be ashamed that in 2017 it was them. It was about time the bounce of the ball went out way in that critical moment and there are plenty of detailed metrics that suggest the 2004 team and the 2014 team were both really unlucky not to get in. When you get in having won 9 games as a wildcard so often there is an element of luck involved. That is just the league.

 

Negative in what way?

They only lucked into it is the primary one, ignoring that they put themselves into position to get in with a Ravens loss.

[Magox]

2 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

It can be, and indeed I submit was, both a tremendous feat and at the same time lucky. I don't think that minimizes any of their 9 victories at all - and indeed as I said above - at worst every other year there is a team that I would categorise as getting a bit lucky. Whether it is the 7-9 division winning Seahawks, the chip shot missed Chargers or the frankly awful Dolphins team that rode Matt Moore to a playoff berth. The Bills shouldn't be ashamed that in 2017 it was them. It was about time the bounce of the ball went out way in that critical moment and there are plenty of detailed metrics that suggest the 2004 team and the 2014 team were both really unlucky not to get in. When you get in having won 9 games as a wildcard so often there is an element of luck involved. That is just the league.

 

 

You are not understanding what I'm saying.  It's not a matter of if there had been any luck involved.   It's that there is a segment of TBD that does not want to give hardly any credit to McD for leading that depleted team that no one thought they had a shot to get into the playoffs, get into the playoffs.  And that when anyone brings up the fact that they did, their typical answer is that they got lucky.  Luck doesn't earn you 9 victories.  It's a feat that from a rational perspective should be recognized and fortunately it is from most of the fan base, but it's always the 10% that are the loudest.

[oldmanfan]

1 minute ago, Magox said:

 

You are not understanding what I'm saying.  It's not a matter of if there had been any luck involved.   It's that there is a segment of TBD that does not want to give hardly any credit to McD for leading that depleted team that no one thought they had a shot to get into the playoffs, get into the playoffs.  And that when anyone brings up the fact that they did, their typical answer is that they got lucky.  Luck doesn't earn you 9 victories.  It's a feat that from a rational perspective should be recognized and fortunately it is from most of the fan base, but it's always the 10% that are the loudest.

Bingo

[GunnerBill]

12 minutes ago, Magox said:

 

You are not understanding what I'm saying.  It's not a matter of if there had been any luck involved.   It's that there is a segment of TBD that does not want to give hardly any credit to McD for leading that depleted team that no one thought they had a shot to get into the playoffs, get into the playoffs.  And that when anyone brings up the fact that they did, their typical answer is that they got lucky.  Luck doesn't earn you 9 victories.  It's a feat that from a rational perspective should be recognized and fortunately it is from most of the fan base, but it's always the 10% that are the loudest.

 

See I just don't see the people doing this. Maybe there are and I am missing their posts..... or maybe when I read them I am projecting my own percpetion (that of course there was luck involved but the Bills still had to manage 9 wins) onto those views and thinking that must be what they mean. I don't know. But my instinct throughout this thread - and I have been engaged basically the whole way - is that the people complaining about negativity are overstating how much negativity is here. 

 

I'm pro McDermott, I'm warming up on Brandon Beane, I supported the rebuild, and I like where the team is headed. I am even more positive on Josh Allen than I was a year ago when we made the pick. But I am here defending the other viewpoint because I don't think it has been argued with the blatent hostility and negativtiy that this thread has consistently presented it as. 

[JohnC]

11 hours ago, K-9 said:

I love this post if for no other reason than the sheer nostalgia it conjures.

 

I also loved the Braves as a kid back in the day.

 

But before that, WNY’s claim to basketball fame was Little Three Basketball and the great local college players that made it so great. And living two blocks from the Deleware b-ball courts, I was privileged to witness some of the best pick up games in history. Bob Lanier, Randy Smith, Calvin Murphy and a younger Mel Montgomery were just a few of the stars that played pick up on those hallowed courts. It was our version of Rucker. Quite the thrill for us little kids to watch. 

 

And SCREW Paul Snyder and John Y Brown. We supported the Braves and got screwed. 

Bob Lanier went to Bennett High. Rumor had it that he wanted to go to Canisius College but couldn't get in. I'm not sure if that is a true story or not? Calvin Murphy was one of the most dynamic players I have seen play in the college ranks. He was small but he was strong and a ball of fire. He can twirl that baton. 

 

Canisius College was not very receptive toward Buffalo High School talent, usually for academic issues. Gene Roberson from Burgard was one of the first local high profile black players to go to Canisius. He did well until he became academically ineligible. Mel Montgomery in HS was a man playing against boys. He stupidly was used in a car promotion that hurt his career because it clearly violated college rules. 

 

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=nba+calvin+murphy+twirl+drum+majorette&view=detail&mid=36BA0E24DF8E2A9BD63236BA0E24DF8E2A9BD632&FORM=VIRE

Edited June 17, 2019 by JohnC

[Magox]

16 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

See I just don't see the people doing this. Maybe there are and I am missing their posts..... or maybe when I read them I am projecting my own percpetion (that of course there was luck involved but the Bills still had to manage 9 wins) onto those views and thinking that must be what they mean. I don't know. But my instinct throughout this thread - and I have been engaged basically the whole way - is that the people complaining about negativity are overstating how much negativity is here. 

 

I'm pro McDermott, I'm warming up on Brandon Beane, I supported the rebuild, and I like where the team is headed. I am even more positive on Josh Allen than I was a year ago when we made the pick. But I am here defending the other viewpoint because I don't think it has been argued with the blatent hostility and negativtiy that this thread has consistently presented it as. 

 

Oh, it has.  

[Gugny]

20 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

See I just don't see the people doing this. Maybe there are and I am missing their posts..... or maybe when I read them I am projecting my own percpetion (that of course there was luck involved but the Bills still had to manage 9 wins) onto those views and thinking that must be what they mean. I don't know. But my instinct throughout this thread - and I have been engaged basically the whole way - is that the people complaining about negativity are overstating how much negativity is here. 

 

I'm pro McDermott, I'm warming up on Brandon Beane, I supported the rebuild, and I like where the team is headed. I am even more positive on Josh Allen than I was a year ago when we made the pick. But I am here defending the other viewpoint because I don't think it has been argued with the blatent hostility and negativtiy that this thread has consistently presented it as. 

 

Homer.

[Royale with Cheese]

On 6/15/2019 at 11:26 AM, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

What I brought up was Lotulelei's anemic production and untenable contract..........that's not a hypothetical........it happened.

 

And btw.........yet again you stumble over statistics in this thread...........Phillips played 39% of his teams defensive snaps in 2018(versus Star's 47% and Phillips 38%).    You literally pointed out that he didn't start playing for Buffalo until week 5 then cited the % of snaps he played out of Buffalo's 16 games?    I'm not even sure what your point was bringing it up but........again you just don't seem to understand how stats work and what they mean.

 

My take is this.........Lotulelei is the most one dimensional and least productive of the Bills top 3 veteran DT's......and the other two aren't that good.

 

The only thing he does well at this point is not miss games to injury..........but barring significant injuries if he doesn't play a lot better he could start missing games due to lack of impact.   Which would be an absurdly poor result for a 2018 free agent pickup with a fully guaranteed $11.5M cap hit in 2019.

 

You did bring up hypotheticals with Star by saying if he doesn't play well in weeks 1 or 2...he could see less snaps and even said he could see some healthy scratches.  Well, doesn't that apply to anyone who doesn't play well?

 

Sorry about the confusion on the snap count.  I looked on Pro Football reference and thought they had broken it down over the games he just played with the Bills but they didn't.

My point in bringing that up is you keep bringing up how bad Star was...was just anemic.  Yet, McDermott never sat him or took him out of the rotation.  Played the 2nd most snaps at DT.

Unless I'm wrong, but is he still not lining up with the ones now?  Is there any indication that he's going to lose his starting job?  I don't see any.  Looks like he's still trotting out with the ones, probably will get between 45-50% of the season.

 

You're so stubborn on your point that Star was trash last year that your only acknowledgement of him still playing is McDermott and his loyalty to him.  You just can't fathom that maybe Star didn't play as bad as you think he did.  Until I see him being replaced or takes a significant reduction in snaps....I'm going to believe he's doing his job and that's why he's out there.  If he starts seeing the pine more and more...then I will start to agree with you.  

Edited June 17, 2019 by Royale with Cheese

[Royale with Cheese]

On 6/15/2019 at 11:54 AM, BADOLBILZ said:

 

Actually Dareus has played mostly nose tackle(0-tech) for Buffalo and Jax since he signed that Bills contract.

 

In the 1-technique for his entire career Lotulelei has been better positioned to make tackles and plays in the backfield than Dareus has been since Rex moved him to NT.

 

 Dareus was tremendous in his partial season at the 1-tech for Buffalo in 2017 and of course the impact of his loss was massive in the subsequent two months.

 

Star just fell off a cliff last year.    He wasn't that good in 2017 which is why the signing was almost universally panned as one of the worst if not the worst value of the 2018 crop.......but he was BAD on the field in 2018.

 

I've heard excuses about Edmunds...........but if Edmunds struggles would have lead to anything it would have been more attempts by Lotulelei to make plays.    It was the exact opposite.......he simply couldn't impact OL and disengage.......he was running in quick sand all season.    I entirely expected some physical excuses but apparently he just sucked.

 

 As for Dareus..........it's my understanding that he will return to starting at the 3T position this year for the first time since his 2014 first team all pro season.   Contrary to what Bills fans want to think Dareus has been playing well in Jacksonville and his base salaries weren't prohibitive the first couple seasons...........he had to re-do his deal because the backloaded base salary portion of his Bills contract came up.    

 

No he wasn't and no it didn't.  You hated the Dareus move so you exaggerate points....TREMENDOUS LOL.

 

They re-did his deal so he wouldn't be cut.  If he had been playing as well as you said he would, he would have gotten a better re-worked deal than he has now.  

[teef]

just to be clear, i'm not giving out any free advice.  that ***** costs money.

[Royale with Cheese]

4 minutes ago, teef said:

just to be clear, i'm not giving out any free advice.  that ***** costs money.

 

I crap bigger than you.

[teef]

5 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

I crap bigger than you.

that's nice.

[SoTier]

14 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

As I said to another individual today, go ahead and wallow in your misery then.  Everybody ***** about not ever having a franchise like QB since Kelly, and they draft Allen.  Do we know what he'll be yet?  No.  But he has the physical talent.  They upgraded the WR and O line spots, you even say that here.  They added to the DBs, the young MLB has a second season to grow into the position.    

 

They had had some things to address from last year and addressed them.  Not only the above but got rid of ineffective O line and ST coaches, brought in an All Pro return guy, and so on.  There's not one thing they didn't try to address this offseason.  In your world none of that matters I guess.  (Cue the show me the baby line or how how they haven't changed in 50 years -you choose).

 

I'm not "wallowing in [my] misery".  You asked why I wasn't optimistic about the Bills having a winning (or better) season in 2019, and I explained exactly why.  You couldn't deny my facts, so you attacked me.  Again.   What else is new?

 

14 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

Ok.  Whatever.  This is getting tiresome.  You guys go ahead and be skeptical and pessimistic if you want.  For me, as one who has seen a helluva lot worse Bills teams since beginning my fandom in 1960,  I look forward to seeing how some of these young guys do, and unlike some I don't assume the worst case scenario.

 

So, it's all right for you to justify your optimism by recalling the mostly uncompetitive Bills teams from the 1970s (40+ years ago), but I can't justify my skepticism of the McDermott-Beane regime by pointing out the similarities between moves made by the current HC/GM and moves made by various Bills regimes since 2000.  Got it.

 

14 hours ago, JohnC said:

Sneaking in is still getting in. Playing in the playoffs when not expected to is still an accomplishment. While some people consider it to be a mirage I know for a fact that it is a reality. For those who don't believe it I suggest that they check the record books. It's in black and white. 

 

I'm glad that the Bills made the playoffs, but I'm not anointing McDermott anything special because only did that 2017 team lose 4 games by 20+ points and had a point differential of -57, the 2018 team fell off a cliff and managed just 6 wins, 4 more blowout (20+ points) losses, and a point differential of -105, which is the third worse point differential since 2000 behind Gregg Williams' 3 win 2001 season -155 and Chan Gailey's 4 win 2010 season -142.   Doug Marrone's and Mike Mularkey's 9-7 squads that missed the playoffs in 2014 and 2004 had positive point differentials: Marrone was +54 and Mularkey was +111.

 

Making the playoffs despite 4 blowout losses and a negative point differential says "luck" to me far more than it does "skill", but you can worship McDermott for it if you want.

 

13 hours ago, K-9 said:

Helluva lot worse indeed! 

 

I’ve said this many times over the years here: from 1960 thru 1984 the Bills had the worst winning percentage of any team in the four major pro sports league in America. Yes, it was frustrating. Yes, we were often envious. But we never wavered, never lost hope, and never lost perspective. 

 

And these ungrateful punks think they know what suffering is? Give me a break. 

 

Ungrateful punk?  I paid taxes in Erie County for 20 years, so my county taxes have funded the Bills for that period.  I've been a NYS resident for my entire adult life, so my state tax dollars have funded the Bills for about fifty years.  Wilson and Pegula are in the business of providing entertainment, and that entertainment product has pretty much sucked except for a few years in the late 1980s and early 1990s.   Now Pegula is coming around looking for more taxpayer $ for a new stadium. 

 

Well, for those taxpayer $, I think I should get more than 1 playoff season and 3 winning seasons in two decades. 

 

12 hours ago, Augie said:

The Bills are still in WNY!!!

 

 

Remember when that was the big worry? It doesn’t give them a pass in any way, but I’m just glad we still have a team to talk about. Other than some Bird/Magic and Jordan era Bulls, I’ve watched very little NBA since the Braves left. 

 

To quote Springsteen, you sound like "a dog that's been beat too much". 

[Bill from NYC]

10 hours ago, Gugny said:

 

He claims to be "untouchable."  Can get away with saying anything he wants.  Says no mods can touch him.  Meh.  We'll see ...

Wouldn't ignoring him make more sense than going to the mods?

 

These are people who are nice enough to help keep this place together. Why would you want to bother them with this kind of petty stuff?

[SoTier]

1 hour ago, Magox said:

 

Oh, it has.  

 

Only in the minds of individuals who cannot tolerate the fact that not every Bills thinks McDermott and Beane are the next Levy and Polian.

Edited June 17, 2019 by SoTier

[oldmanfan]

Just now, SoTier said:

 

I'm not "wallowing in [my] misery".  You asked why I wasn't optimistic about the Bills having a winning (or better) season in 2019, and I explained exactly why.  You couldn't deny my facts, so you attacked me.  Again.   What else is new?

 

 

So, it's all right for you to justify your optimism by recalling the mostly uncompetitive Bills teams from the 1970s (40+ years ago), but I can't justify my skepticism of the McDermott-Beane regime by pointing out the similarities between moves made by the current HC/GM and moves made by various Bills regimes since 2000.  Got it.

 

 

I'm glad that the Bills made the playoffs, but I'm not anointing McDermott anything special because only did that 2017 team lose 4 games by 20+ points and had a point differential of -57, the 2018 team fell off a cliff and managed just 6 wins, 4 more blowout (20+ points) losses, and a point differential of -105, which is the third worse point differential since 2000 behind Gregg Williams' 3 win 2001 season -155 and Chan Gailey's 4 win 2010 season -142.   Doug Marrone's and Mike Mularkey's 9-7 squads that missed the playoffs in 2014 and 2004 had positive point differentials: Marrone was +54 and Mularkey was +111.

 

Making the playoffs despite 4 blowout losses and a negative point differential says "luck" to me far more than it does "skill", but you can worship McDermott for it if you want.

 

 

Ungrateful punk?  I paid taxes in Erie County for 20 years, so my county taxes have funded the Bills for that period.  I've been a NYS resident for my entire adult life, so my state tax dollars have funded the Bills for about fifty years.  Wilson and Pegula are in the business of providing entertainment, and that entertainment product has pretty much sucked except for a few years in the late 1980s and early 1990s.   Now Pegula is coming around looking for more taxpayer $ for a new stadium. 

 

Well, for those taxpayer $, I think I should get more than 1 playoff season and 3 winning seasons in two decades. 

 

 

To quote Springsteen, you sound like "a dog that's been beat too much". 

You make an interesting point about my looking back, and a valid one.  But the way you do so and I do so are completely different.   I do so to show that ultimately it matters not what happened 40 years ago; that one can still remain optimistic about the current set of circumstances.  You use it to somehow suggest that things will be the same, despite the fact that we have a completely new set of owners, front office personnel, coaches, players, and so on.  Your thought process in forming that opinion is illogical in assuming any of the previous years , save the last two, have any bearing on the current status of the team.

 

Also, your thought about you deserving more because of paying taxes in terms of team success seems misplaced.  You have gotten entertainment.  You have gotten to watch NFL football.  That is what your ticket price gets you.  No more, no less. 

 

I will try to refrain from personal insults.  I have been hard on you, and I'll try to refrain from anything personal and address your opinions specifically.  I hope you can do the same.

 

 

[Royale with Cheese]

3 minutes ago, SoTier said:

 

Only in the minds of individuals who cannot tolerate the fact that not every Bills thinks McDermott and Beane are the next Levy and Polian.

 

I think this is greatly exaggerated.  Most are saying the understand the moves and like them.  We know the results are on the field.

You are looking at it differently.  You believe what happened 19 years ago applies to today and choose to be pessimistic.