John Warrow’s High Praise For Beane & McDermott Regime

[BADOLBILZ]

25 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

Blame Pegula if you want. We didn't hire the next GM until after that draft. So who picks the QB, the defensive coach coming from a team that wasn't scouting QBs? There was no chance we were taking a QB that year. They certainly weren't going to go off of the scouting done by the lame suck GM and scouting staff. They had to cobble that draft together from Carolina's draft board. It's a miracle it went as well as it did. The eye was always on 2018 for drafting a QB, and if Allen turns out to be good the first 2 years won't mean a thing.

 

Yeah keeping Whaley and staff when the coach had no intention of using their info in the draft process was ridiculous.

 

What McDermott's role in that was we simply don't know.     Did he not agree with keeping Whaley's staff but just grudgingly played along with The Pegs and then used Beane's Carolina draft info to make all of the selections instead?   Seems unlikely.    It was likely just another poorly executed transition by the folks at PSE.    The dumpster was nuclear in the weeks around the Rex firing and McD hiring so things not making sense was totally in character.

 

It was bizarre to say the least but McBeane gotta' own it.    There was some initial denial from some fans that McD was using Carolina info on draft day and that Beane wasn't assured of the GM job in Buffalo.........but I don't think there is anyone left who thinks that the Beane decision wasn't made months before the hiring.    You can't use that as an excuse to pass on Mahomes and Watson after the fact.

 

[HappyDays]

2 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

You can't use that as an excuse to pass on Mahomes and Watson after the fact

 

I mean, of course you can. Beane and the Panthers weren't scouting QBs. You wanted McDermott to draft a QB in a QB class they hadn't scouted? That's nonsense.

[Magox]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Well we could have simply not taken up (or more accurately renegotiated and then taken up which is what we actually did) Tyrod's option in 2017 and selected Watson or Mahomes that year. That was what I was advocating at the time. You could have used the saved money to retain Gilmore too if you wanted to.

 

Again - I actually largely support the approach they took. I understand it and I think it was a sensible approach and to be honest I was a little fed up with the constant "reloads" and was probably ready as a fan for a total "rebuild." But it was a choice. And you didn't have to want to keep Tyrod to go the other route. They could have reloaded they could have gone for the rebuild which they eventually went with. If it works they will get praised if it doesn't people will say "they should have reloaded instead." That is always the case everywhere. Ultimately it is a result driven business and they will be judged by Ws and Ls.

 

They weren't going to draft a QB with their 1st round draft choice with a lame duck GM who had previously struck out on his previous 1st round selected QB.    

 

The second point that I'd like to make with this silly talk of rebuild vs retool.   These are terms that fans and NFL pundits use.

 

They don't go into it thinking "I'm in charge now, and I'm going to get rid of everyone just so that I can call it a rebuild and buy myself some breathing space and time to build a team the way I see fit".

 

They analyze every single player on the team and they look at a number of considerations to determine whether or not they are a fit for what they are trying to do.

 

They look at whether or not they believe them to be a scheme fit, if they get injured often, intangibles such as leadership and whether they are a "process" type of guy, their measurables, past and recent production, if they believe they could replace what that player could deliver at a lower  or comparable cost, their valuation of that players position, if they are still developing and if they are on the up or downswing of their careers, need for that particular position,  if they believe they want to be a Bill and a whole host of considerations.   

 

Then once they look at all those considerations they measure that along side of their cap hit and make a determination if that player is a fit for the type of team they want to build.     

 

Whether you call it a "retool" or a "rebuild" the same considerations are still there for their final determination.  They look at the player, the cap hit and if both of those fit into what they are trying to do as an organization they make the determination. That's it.  

 

For me it was clear, they didn't like the makeup of the team that they inherited.  That's not to say they didn't believe there was some quality talent that they decided to part ways with just that when all things were considered, they chose to go with a different route.  Just like any FO, sometimes you strike out on some positions.  But the idea that they just scrapped players just so that they could justify what fans and pundits call a "rebuild" is patently absurd.   That's just not how decisions are made.  They view each player evaluation and decision on it's own merits, not through the lens of making player personnel decisions just for the purpose of fitting into a larger "rebuild" strategy.

 

 

[Punching Bag]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Not should. But definitely could. I support the total rebuild. I don't accept and will never accept it was the only way. 

 

Of course not. There was a  choice of full tank in Coach McD's first year.

This is something many posters were saying what was happening and made excuses when Bills made playoffs.

[ColoradoBills]

1 hour ago, K-9 said:

True. And given how Mahomes turned out his second year, it’s understandable, regardless of the hindsight needed to bolster that position. There were some around here pounding the table for him at the time, but not many.  I think McDermott and then Bean had their sights set on the 2018 QB class the entire time and they were hell bent on executing a plan to snag one. 

 

Also, does Mahomes have the same early success in Buffalo as opposed to KC? Without the wizardry of Reid and the stable of superior receiving threats?  That’s one helluvan extrapolation imo. 

 

I'll pick your post here to reply to all related to this subject.

I can also see that the 2017 QB draft questions are a point of contention on the board.

I tend to agree that McDermott as a new HC and with some probable backing by the Pegula's held off on QB until Beane came in.

 

Your reply about TT's future role is valid but I think even goes further than just him.

Marcel, Sammy, Gilmore and others were also part of it.

The argument could be made that some "babies" got thrown out with the bath water as other keep posting about BUT the

fact is (like you have insinuated) that it was just casualties of the decision of total rebuild v reload.

 

The thing that get's me is the assumption of many that this path with the current GM/HC could be like all the others in

the last 20 years.  I just see it being handled in a much more logical and methodical method over the previous regimes.

 

The result could be the same BUT the way it's being done is new IMO.

I can't wait for this season to see how it works out!

 

[Magox]

1 hour ago, ScottLaw said:

That's actually not what they are saying at all.

 

I think most fans agreed the Bills needed to draft a franchise QB.... they could've done that without trading away assets. They passed on one good and one really good QB in the 2017 NFL draft.

 

That is some observation there.    "they could have had".

 

These retrospective arguments are vapid.  We could play this game with every single NFL organization in every single draft.  Should have Would have Could have.   Beane wasn't in charge and McD wasn't going to let Whaley who was a lame duck GM make that decision, specially after his last QB he drafted flamed out.

[BADOLBILZ]

1 minute ago, K-9 said:

High praise coming from the master himself. 

 

I’ll stick by it though, as I’m not persuaded in the least by arguments that rely entirely on hindsight and unprovable assumptions that rookies drafted by other teams would have performed as well in Buffalo. Or that our supporting casts would have offered the exact same advantages. 

 

Feel free to show me all your posts prior to the ‘18 free agent season and draft period that outline all the moves you suggest we should have made instead. I might be persuaded by them. 

 

 

Oh the old "he wouldn't have done well in Buffalo" take while at the same time defending the coaches who supposedly would have held him back.

 

[Punching Bag]

51 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

Blame Pegula if you want. We didn't hire the next GM until after that draft. So who picks the QB, the defensive coach coming from a team that wasn't scouting QBs? There was no chance we were taking a QB that year. They certainly weren't going to go off of the scouting done by the lame duck GM and scouting staff. They had to cobble that draft together from Carolina's draft board. It's a miracle it went as well as it did. The eye was always on 2018 for drafting a QB, and if Allen turns out to be good the first 2 years won't mean a thing.

 

So are claiming that Coach McD liked when he said he used information from Whaley's scouts and he either took Carolina's scouting reports or Beane fed him while he was assistant GM in Carolina?

[BADOLBILZ]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

No I see no regression from Tyrod. He was not very good. 

 

I am not even saying a reload would have worked. Equally we don't know whether the rebuild will either though I like where we are currently at. But they did have talent. They were a .500 football team over a 3 year stint. Reloading was an option. Trying to deny it is foolish. 

 

They might have tried it got Sammy injured immediately or something like that and then ended up regretting it. Doesn't mean it was never an option. 

 

 

 

You have the patience of Job with some of these knuckleheads. 

 

I mean if the organization decided to not hold training camp they'd use THAT as an EXCUSE for the organization for getting off to a bad start...........there is just no acceptance or understanding of the basic concept of accountability for actions and decisions.

  

[teef]

let's face it...some people are little ***** who just love to complain.  let's just leave it at that.

[ColoradoBills]

5 minutes ago, Magox said:

 

That is some observation there.    "they could have had".

 

These retrospective arguments are vapid.  We could play this game with every single NFL organization in every single draft.  Should have Would have Could have.   Beane wasn't in charge and McD wasn't going to let Whaley who was a lame duck GM make that decision, specially after his last QB he drafted flamed out.

 

I agree with your last 2 posts.  Take away the semantics of rebuild v reload that I used, your definition of what is happening remains true.

I've given up the shoulda, woulda, coulda stuff because this current group has proven to me they are worth the wait for the results.

The results will need to start showing up this season.

 

 

[Magox]

I know it makes for fun conspiratorial conversation but does anyone actually believe that Beane shared what the Carolina Panthers draft board or research that would belong to the Panthers on over to their competition (Bills)?   Don't answer that because I know some of you do.    It's ridiculous!   The idea that Beane who is a consummate professional would share meaningful and substantive information that was derived from the Panthers on over to another team would be highly unethical.   I don't believe for one second that McD would have even had it in him to ask him to do such a thing.

 

The farthest extent that it would have gone would be "What do you think of that player?"    

 

If you are going to invest your precious 1st round draft choice you aren't going to make that decision off of what someone thinks, there are going to be binders and reams of tape on that player with their own evaluators notes and numerous discussions and back and forths with the GM that is pushing for that player before they pull the trigger.

 

Once again, this is just silly talk.

 

[HappyDays]

10 minutes ago, Limeaid said:

 

So are claiming that Coach McD liked when he said he used information from Whaley's scouts and he either took Carolina's scouting reports or Beane fed him while he was assistant GM in Carolina?

 

No doubt in my mind. Look at the list of Panthers pre-draft visits from 2017:

 

https://panthergf.wordpress.com/2017/02/28/2017-draft-prospect-visit-workout-meeting-list/amp/

 

Tre'Davious White

Dion Dawkins

Tanner Vallejo

Zay Jones

 

Notably absent from that list is top QBs. Why would Carolona have scouted QBs? Beane and McDermott had no information to go off of.

[ColoradoBills]

3 minutes ago, Magox said:

I know it makes for fun conspiratorial conversation but does anyone actually believe that Beane shared what the Carolina Panthers draft board or research that would belong to the Panthers on over to their competition (Bills)?   Don't answer that because I know some of you do.    It's ridiculous!   The idea that Beane who is a consummate professional would share meaningful and substantive information that was derived from the Panthers on over to another team would be highly unethical.   I don't believe for one second that McD would have even had it in him to ask him to do such a thing.

 

The farthest extent that it would have gone would be "What do you think of that player?"    

 

If you are going to invest your precious 1st round draft choice you aren't going to make that decision off of what someone thinks, there are going to be binders and reams of tape on that player with their own evaluators notes and numerous discussions and back and forths with the GM that is pushing for that player before they pull the trigger.

 

Once again, this is just silly talk.

 

 

No.  But I do think that McDermott looked into who the Panthers brought in for visits and collected what info he could about what they might be thinking.

2 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

No doubt in my mind. Look at the list of Panthers pre-draft visits from 2017:

 

https://panthergf.wordpress.com/2017/02/28/2017-draft-prospect-visit-workout-meeting-list/amp/

 

Tre'Davious White

Dion Dawkins

Tanner Vallejo

Zay Jones

 

Notably absent from that list is top QBs. Why would Carolona have scouted QBs? Beane and McDermott had no information to go off of.

 

Thanks for doing the work!

[Punching Bag]

20 minutes ago, Magox said:

 

That is some observation there.    "they could have had".

 

These retrospective arguments are vapid.  We could play this game with every single NFL organization in every single draft.  Should have Would have Could have.   Beane wasn't in charge and McD wasn't going to let Whaley who was a lame duck GM make that decision, specially after his last QB he drafted flamed out.

 

Whiley did not make ANY decisions in that draft, Coach McD did.  He said he used information from scouting department and on players available.  Whiley was very good at that latter role even he sucked at public speaking.  Unfortunately the way egos are in NFL people are usually not willing to step down to lower role even if choice is being fired and I think the guaranteed contracts contribute to that. 

[Magox]

1 minute ago, ColoradoBills said:

 

No.  But I do think that McDermott looked into who the Panthers brought in for visits and collected what info he could about what they might be thinking.

 

McD and Beane came from the same organization and they both have similar views what their type of players look like.   It is not surprising that when you have 2 high level FO's who have similar views what players they like should look like that you are going to have some intersect specially considering there are 30+ pre draft visits.  

[ColoradoBills]

Just now, Magox said:

 

McD and Beane came from the same organization and they both have similar views what their type of players look like.   It is not surprising that when you have 2 high level FO's who have similar views what players they like should look like that you are going to have some intersect specially considering there are 30+ pre draft visits.  

 

Of course, but he also was with that organization and IF he respected their opinion he surely would look into what they may be planning.

But I do agree that there was no "conspiracy" concerning the draft.

[K-9]

26 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Oh the old "he wouldn't have done well in Buffalo" take while at the same time defending the coaches who supposedly would have held him back.

 

Where do you find this crap? Seriously. Can you not see the difference between Andy Reid developing a rookie into a second year stud QB and Sean McDermott? There is a difference between praising Reid and knocking McDermott. 

 

Betcha Reid wouldn’t mind having our defense, though. See what I did there? 

 

I look forward to reading all those posts of yours prior to the ‘17 free agency and draft periods outlining the precise strategy you find so easy to do in hindsight. 

[BADOLBILZ]

11 minutes ago, teef said:

let's face it...some people are little ***** who just love to complain.  let's just leave it at that.

 

 

Dude, you've gotten so dark with the dehumanizing labels.  

 

WTH you weren't even in the discussion but you dropped the white N word on it.  

 

I thought @Royale with Cheese returning would get you out of your dark place but I guess not.

 

 

[Magox]

16 minutes ago, Limeaid said:

 

Whiley did not make ANY decisions in that draft, Coach McD did.  He said he used information from scouting department and on players available.  Whiley was very good at that latter role even he sucked at public speaking.  Unfortunately the way egos are in NFL people are usually not willing to step down to lower role even if choice is being fired and I think the guaranteed contracts contribute to that. 

 

I agree that Whaley didn't make the decisions but if McD were going to draft a QB, then he would have relied on Whaley and the scouting team Whaley had formed to make that decision.    Semantics.

 

And Whaley's weakness wasn't solely that he "sucked at public speaking".  He had quite a few deficiencies.  Most importantly he couldn't sell his vision to the Pegula's.  That's the first thing any successful manager in anything has to be able to do, sell your vision to those that will allow you to follow through with your plans.  That was his first flaw.  

 

Secondly, even though he had a good eye for talent in certain areas, he didn't know how to properly value that talent.  Talent has a monetary value and when you take into consideration that it has to be within a finite construct you have to know how to manage that money.  He didn't.

 

Plus he failed miserably with his selection of Watkins.  Gave up a first rounder to get him, that was one of the worst decisions he made.  Then he screwed up again with another first rounder with Manuel.  Think about that, that is 3 wasted first rounders.    If you are a new GM and you mess up with one first rounder you are going to be on thin ice.  With 2 you are almost certainly gone but with 3????

 

Whaley should be part of an NFL FO just not the GM.

Edited June 3, 2019 by Magox