Purchasing Farmland Behind Property

[RochesterRob]

10 minutes ago, KD in CA said:

 

Well sure, that's what you're paying for -- having pertinent data on your screen instead of trying to piece it together from lots of disparate sources.

 

Bias and privacy come into play with local realtors;  hence the value of getting the data yourself easily and in a useable format.

  Acrevalue only tells so much of the story.  Land down around Geneseo sold for 11,000 dollars per acre recently because a dairy operation needed ground for manure application to stay compliant with state environmental regulations.  What would have the land sold for had that particular bidder not become involved?  Soil types can change considerably within a running mile in many places found in WNY.  Not all soils will support the same agricultural practices.  Some ground down in Gainesville (Wyoming County) might have sold for 8,000 dollars per acre because of its ability to grow potatoes.  Go a mile in a different direction and the soil might only support pasture land worth 1,000 dollars per acre.  Acrevalue can be very useful but you need to know how to interpret information which the OP will struggle to do.

[ExiledInIllinois]

4 hours ago, ShadyBillsFan said:

 

If you don't buy it  

 

someone else will  and you won't have any choice in how or when they sell it to a developer. 

 

I'm pretty sure you can get land value estimates from the town / county

 

That has never stopped a developer before. 

+1.

Go NIMBY before it's too late!

[Punching Bag]

8 hours ago, mike22nc said:

 

Correct, no access by road. The land is bordered by our yard and our neighbors yard on the south side, another larger farm on the east side, my other neighbors land on the west side and wooded land on the north side. It is zoned residential/agricultural. I do not believe that it is possible to develop.

 

 

You say it cannot be developed but do you have enough land to put in a road on your property to it and be far enough from road for comfort?

There is a 3 acre lot behind me and a developer who was told that there is not enough space at road for a turning lane they would require.  He asked me if I would sell the front portion of my property to give enough space for such a lane and I said no. Why would I want the traffic closer to my bedroom window and property taxes raised just for a small amount of money but in this case owning both the access property and the development property you could negotiate with developer.

[snafu]

11 hours ago, mike22nc said:

Here is the question - How would you go about valuing land that does not have access or frontage? I have tried to do as much research as I can, but I have been unable to find comps to this specific situation. Lots specifically for building homes are plentiful, but would not be comparable. I really don't know if the value should be 2k per acre or 10k per acre. Anyone have experience or knowledge in this area?

 

It is difficult to understand exactly what you're asking without knowing the parcels.

Are you saying that the lot you want to purchase has no access to a public road?  How to the current owners get on and off the lot?  There must be some access, either by land fronting a public way, or by a private easement.  Without an answer to that, it is very difficult to answer your question.

 

Assuming there's no direct, physical access to a public road -- generally, if there is already a written, recorded easement in place, then your question is already answered and you don't have to worry about anything other than market value.  Sometimes, there is an easement created by implication -- someone uses a path or driveway for a period of years and the right of way is created by that use -- as long as no objection is made by the true property owner.  Sometimes, there's an easement by "necessity".  That is really site-specific.

 

If you NEED an easement, then you need to purchase it from whomever is willing to sell you the right.  That goes dollar for dollar by the price per square foot.  You'd likely have to bear the cost of improving the land to install a road or driveway, etc. And you'd probably be required to pay legal fees, recording charges, surveys, and transfer tax (if the Seller tries to pass that off to you).

 

You might want to (a) get a copy of an old survey of the lot, and (b) do a quick title search to see if there are any recorded easements.

 

 

 

8 hours ago, mike22nc said:

Correct, no access by road. The land is bordered by our yard and our neighbors yard on the south side, another larger farm on the east side, my other neighbors land on the west side and wooded land on the north side. It is zoned residential/agricultural. I do not believe that it is possible to develop.

 

I think you will find that NOBODY landlocks their own parcel without leaving a way in or out.

 

[snafu]

3 hours ago, BringBackFergy said:

The owner has to sell to either of you because h can't sell to a non-bordering third party (no other access to the parcel).

 

If it is truly landlocked, you don't think there would be an easement by proscription or necessity?  I do.

The first party to find out if there's a right of way will be the one who has the upper hand in negotiating this.

 

 

 

Edited April 25, 2019 by snafu

[frostbitmic]

Land will never drop in value unless it sits on a toxic waste lot. There's only so much land and it will increase in value over the long haul.

 

Talk to the farmer who has been leasing it to grow crops and see if you can come to an "understanding". If nothing else, leasing to him would help pay your taxes for the parcel and you'd still have options moving forward.

 

Buying land is a smart move ... Usually.

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

13 minutes ago, frostbitmic said:

Buying land is a smart move ... Usually.

 

Run some perc tests ...  this will tell you if its usable for building homes in the future

 

A percolation test is a test to determine the water absorption rate of soil in preparation for the building of a septic drain field (leach field) or infiltration basin.

https://www.todayshomeowner.com/diy-soil-drainage-perk-test-for-your-yard/

 

Edited April 25, 2019 by ShadyBillsFan

[mike22nc]

My assumption is, if he cannot find a buyer among the people with access, he will just sell it along with his home. He said he'd give us the first option at the land, but who knows if that happens when we get down to it. 

 

His home will be listed for a significant amount, and a significant amount more than the acreage is worth. IMO, a farmer will not be buying his home, so the person who purchases it would likely only want the land for a reason similar to ours. So I guess the real question is how much more would a person looking to spend ~$400k on his home spend to have the 14 acres. To me, the answer is that the purchaser will have more resources to spend on the land than we do, so I would love to get it prior to him putting his house on the market.

[Buffalo_Gal]

You can get it appraised. My husband had 35+ acres appraised in Niagara County last year. Several realtors told him land was selling for X per acre, the appraisal came in differently (the land isn't landlocked).  

 

Without knowing specifics, make sure you get the mineral and water rights too.

 

Get a survey.

 

 You can continue to lease to the farmer (ask the current owner for the lease terms), or not renew the contract.

 

There have been a few solar companies looking for solar farm land in Niagara County - hubby keeps mulling it over but has not yet pulled the trigger.

 

I do not know what town you are in, or if you would be looking to rezone, but check with the planning/zoning board(s) before buying if that might be a consideration for you... same for outbuilding rules. If you plan on building a barn or something on that plot of land it may have to be combined with your current primary property (you may need a primary building on the land to have an ancillary building - they may take into account that the properties are contiguous, they may not. Ask the zoning board to be sure.)

[SoTier]

23 hours ago, ShadyBillsFan said:

That [being landlocked] has never stopped a developer before. 

 

Exactly.  The land has road access via the current owner.   The current or a future owner could sell part of his frontage and the back 14 acres to somebody.  If the farmer bought the 14 acres to add to his land, then it would become part of his much larger parcel -- and even more likely to be developed at some point.

[SoTier]

19 hours ago, RochesterRob said:

  Acrevalue only tells so much of the story.  Land down around Geneseo sold for 11,000 dollars per acre recently because a dairy operation needed ground for manure application to stay compliant with state environmental regulations.  What would have the land sold for had that particular bidder not become involved?  Soil types can change considerably within a running mile in many places found in WNY.  Not all soils will support the same agricultural practices.  Some ground down in Gainesville (Wyoming County) might have sold for 8,000 dollars per acre because of its ability to grow potatoes.  Go a mile in a different direction and the soil might only support pasture land worth 1,000 dollars per acre.  Acrevalue can be very useful but you need to know how to interpret information which the OP will struggle to do.

 

Thanks to all the Ice Age glaciers.  On our land in northern Cattaraugus County, the fields on the north side of the farmstead are igravelly soil while the fields on the south side are much more clayey.  That's probably a distance of less than 100 yards. 

[DC Tom]

On 4/25/2019 at 11:09 AM, ShadyBillsFan said:

 

Nearly every patch of land in my little town, from 2 acres to 50 acres is being bought up and houses being built on them. 

 

They will find a way to build a road. 

 

It's not too difficult for a developer to get a town or county to grant them an easement on someone else's property.  

 

I've seen it happen in DC developments; I think DC might even have a special rubber stamp for granting it, as quick as they do.  

[mike22nc]

We're in Cambria, which I believe to be notorious for their strict zoning laws. Not saying development cannot happen, but I haven't seen much of it our way.

[Cripple Creek]

On 4/26/2019 at 7:25 AM, SoTier said:

 

Exactly.  The land has road access via the current owner.   The current or a future owner could sell part of his frontage and the back 14 acres to somebody.  If the farmer bought the 14 acres to add to his land, then it would become part of his much larger parcel -- and even more likely to be developed at some point.

if

 

and

 

but

[boater]

On 4/25/2019 at 2:10 AM, mike22nc said:

We'd be purchasing to enjoy the land ourselves. No exact plan yet, but we'd extend our backyard another .5 acres or so, plant some fruit and/or nut trees and likely lease out the rest to a local farmer to cover some of the taxes. The purchase would MOSTLY be to, as you say, ensure our own privacy and enjoyment.

I once owned 40 acres of pasture with road frontage.

 

I highly encourage you to lease out the entire part you don't use for yourself to a local farmer. Land that is currently worked and tillable retains high value. Unused land that is starting to get saplings, will decrease in value. I had a guy come in once a year and harvest hay--it kept the land as a working farm, and also gave me money to cover the taxes. Don't ever let it grow to the point a bush hog won't cut it.

 

I don't have NYS experience, so can't help you with cost calculations.  Surf here https://www.unitedcountry.com/farmsforsale/  and here https://www.landandfarm.com/  for comps.

 

Good luck, it sounds like a great investment.

[stony]

On 4/25/2019 at 1:48 AM, mike22nc said:

Hello everyone,

 

I have been a member of these forums since the early 2000s and have always enjoyed the content without participating much at all. I believe this is the first time I've ever posted in OTW. With that, I am looking for advice from some fellow Bills fans on a farm land purchase I am looking to make.

 

My wife and I moved to Niagara County a little over a year ago. The home we purchased is on 1.2 acres with 14 acres of farm land directly behind us and the neighbors, which is owned by those neighbors. They are moving soon and we've made them aware that we are interested in purchasing the land.

 

Here is the question - How would you go about valuing land that does not have access or frontage? I have tried to do as much research as I can, but I have been unable to find comps to this specific situation. Lots specifically for building homes are plentiful, but would not be comparable. I really don't know if the value should be 2k per acre or 10k per acre. Anyone have experience or knowledge in this area?

 

Thanks for the years of entertainment in here!

Short answer, call an appraisal firm and have them provide a value estimate.   

Edited April 27, 2019 by stony

[mead107]

Are we buying it? 

[BUFFALOKIE]

I agree with whoever said it earlier...if you can afford land, buy it till it hurts!

[mike22nc]

9 hours ago, mead107 said:

Are we buying it? 

 

We are as long as it works out. Likely won't have an update until late summer.

[KD in CA]

What if anything do they grow there now?