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IgotBILLStopay

D'haquille aka Duke Williams, Bills' newest WR better than any draft prospect

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7 minutes ago, eball said:

 

Just because your opinion is different doesn't mean you're correct.  This was most certainly a complete rebuild -- McD and Beane were just smart enough not to announce it publicly.

 

Oddsmakers aren't predicting win totals based upon "true" evaluations of an organization -- they're basing it on past performance and gamblers' perceptions.  On that basis there is no logical reason to predict immediate success -- which is why you have to look deeper.  Top 5 defense, QB in place, lots of money and draft picks.  Stability and focus from GM and HC.  Yeah, you're right, they're stupid and don't know what they're doing.

 

1) Look at the teams I mentioned earlier.........they made A LOT of moves too.........I mean in the offseason the Seahawks drafted Russell Wilson they also signed Matt Flynn to a big contract and traded a good pick for Charlie Whitehurst.    Acquiring new players is not a re-build.........it's just what teams DO when they have positions to fill and are trying to remain competitive.   Like I said.......the Bills were the second oldest team in the NFL in 2017 and 6th oldest in 2018............there wasn't a tear down........there was a swapping out of FA eligible talent for rookies using assets that could have otherwise been used to just add that talent to the existing talent..........hence the treading of the water of mediocrity.

 

2) As for the oddsmakers.........it's not about wins........it's about the ODDS TO WIN THE SB.    That speaks to this organization's inability to escape mediocrity.   Insight and courage are required to get out of the hole and the front office has been short on those at key times over the last couple of decades.

 

3) I'm not saying THEY'RE stupid.........I'm saying your perception of what they've done is conveniently incorrect.

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3 hours ago, JaCrispy said:

Trading Jones would not be wise imo...we invested multiple draft picks in him, he led the team in receptions last season, and he is still making peanuts on his rookie deal.

Yeah. I think the most we could expect in a trade is like a 4th. The only possible reason to trade him is if he's legitimately not in their plans at all. I think he can at least contribute and help the new WR's line up properly. Hopefully it doesn't take them a full season to learn the plays though.

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39 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Jones is such a complicated matter it's easy to see it going either way.

 

Remember,  he was drafted to be an outside X or Z receiver who catches everything...............and while he's found footing as a solid NFL receiver........he's proven to not be THAT guy at all.

 

If Daboll wants a more Patriot-like quicker slot guy rather than a "big slot" like Jones.........where does that leave Jones?    He isn't a big ST guy.   He doesn't just drop occasional passes........he gets the yips and you don't know how long it will last.    He's a quality NFL WR but he's got issues.  

 

I agree with those that say he was a pretty good WR for them and made a nice connection with Allen but when they are talking about adding more weapons what are they really saying?    Sounds to me like they are looking for a #1 to play X or Z opposite Robert Foster........which doesn't bode well for Jones. 

 

Yeah. What they're saying is Jones was a 2nd round pick and he put up some stats(someone had to) so let's just add some studs and see what happens. They're essentially saying Jones isn't good enough. Having said that, I just don't think a trade is viable. We're talking about a very small ROI. You bring up some interesting points about "big slot" and Jones no longer being a fit. I get it, but I think I'd rather give him a shot than acquire a 4th rounder. The reason I wouldn't be "shocked" by a trade is that it's possible Jones isn't in their plans at all.

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1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Jones is such a complicated matter it's easy to see it going either way.

 

Remember,  he was drafted to be an outside X or Z receiver who catches everything...............and while he's found footing as a solid NFL receiver........he's proven to not be THAT guy at all.

 

If Daboll wants a more Patriot-like quicker slot guy rather than a "big slot" like Jones.........where does that leave Jones?    He isn't a big ST guy.   He doesn't just drop occasional passes........he gets the yips and you don't know how long it will last.    He's a quality NFL WR but he's got issues.  

 

I agree with those that say he was a pretty good WR for them and made a nice connection with Allen but when they are talking about adding more weapons what are they really saying?    Sounds to me like they are looking for a #1 to play X or Z opposite Robert Foster........which doesn't bode well for Jones. 

 

My problem with Jones is when he racks up big catch numbers it hardly ever seems to be at times when it is crucial to the team win....its usually after games have been decided one way or the other (maybe its just me)

 

I just want guys who can get separation and catch a pass that is not perfect......Zay was SUPPOSED to be that guy....if he is not it doesnt mean he does not have a place on the team....he dies......as like a 3rd receiver.....

 

We need guys that will catch a ball and do something with it.....consistantly

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16 hours ago, LSHMEAB said:

Zay's ceiling is a number 3 WR. He simply doesn't do anything well enough to be relied upon as a primary option. Very comparable to Josh Reed.

Yup, said this earlier.  Josh Reed was slow and small.  His best ability was catching, which he then began to struggle with.  Very similar to Zay though Zay is bigger.

 

it was a bad pick and an awful trade up.  Still it’s a sunken cost and a 3rd receiver does have value.  But man, no trades up for Mahomes and JuJu would have been pretty cool.

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6 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Yup, said this earlier.  Josh Reed was slow and small.  His best ability was catching, which he then began to struggle with.  Very similar to Zay though Zay is bigger.

 

it was a bad pick and an awful trade up.  Still it’s a sunken cost and a 3rd receiver does have value.  But man, no trades up for Mahomes and JuJu would have been pretty cool.

Doesn't even really make sense. Both Jones and Reed's biggest asset coming into the league was their ultra productive collegiate careers and their HANDS. They get to the show and start dropping passes left and right. Odd.

7 minutes ago, Jay_Fixit said:

All the posts just blasting Zay Jones.

 

 

Lol.

Just don't see how pointing out a football player's obvious limitations could be considered "blasting." A guy with very little ability to separate or high point a ball has to have ELITE hands. He hasn't even demonstrated good hands. It's a problem.

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10 minutes ago, LSHMEAB said:

Doesn't even really make sense. Both Jones and Reed's biggest asset coming into the league was their ultra productive collegiate careers and their HANDS. They get to the show and start dropping passes left and right. Odd.

Just don't see how pointing out a football player's obvious limitations could be considered "blasting." A guy with very little ability to separate or high point a ball has to have ELITE hands. He hasn't even demonstrated good hands. It's a problem.

Confidence is a huge factor in the drops.  The loss of confidence can also come from realizing you aren’t going to beat guys with your physical ability any more.

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Just now, C.Biscuit97 said:

Confidence is a huge factor in the drops.  The loss of confidence can also come from realizing you aren’t going to beat guys with your physical ability any more.

Best explanation I've heard.

 

So now I'm lined up against the Patriots defense as opposed to UCONN. This guy is athletically superior to me. Suddenly I'm not so confident.

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Well, we don't have another Williams on the roster. We are Williamsless, so there is that.

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16 hours ago, eball said:

 

You are 100% wrong here.  They aren't patching holes at all.  They rebuilt the D, found and drafted their QB, and fixed the salary cap.  Is this not all true?  The very point you are trying to make in your first sentence is exactly what Beane's and McD's plan is -- build a consistent, long term winner.  They chose to break it down and build it up rather than go for quick fixes a la Whaley.  Do you dispute the excellent position the organization is in right now?

 

You keep hammering on the "they could have had Mahomes" topic.  Tell me -- when KC made that move how many around the league applauded them?  It was viewed as risky, and fortunately for them it worked out.  The Bills didn't pass on Mahomes because of "chaos/organizational dysfunction" -- they passed because McD saw a lot of things that needed to change and for whatever reason the Bills' scouting department didn't have Mahomes rated that highly.

 

We can play the "they should have drafted X" game with every team in the league.  They went and got their QB last year and that appears to have been a pretty shrewd move.

Right, there was no chaos/dysfunction at all.

 

The Pegulas are clearly just trailblazers. Hiring the HC first while keeping a lame duck GM on board for the draft then firing him immediately after the draft and hiring the new HC's suggestion for the position to take his place. 

 

Surprised the rest of the league hasn't taken note of this and followed this exact blueprint.😂

 

That played absolutely no part in their decision to pass on Mahomes and trade down for the safer, more conservative pick.... 🙄

 

Edited by ScottLaw
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21 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

1) Look at the teams I mentioned earlier.........they made A LOT of moves too.........I mean in the offseason the Seahawks drafted Russell Wilson they also signed Matt Flynn to a big contract and traded a good pick for Charlie Whitehurst.    Acquiring new players is not a re-build.........it's just what teams DO when they have positions to fill and are trying to remain competitive.   Like I said.......the Bills were the second oldest team in the NFL in 2017 and 6th oldest in 2018............there wasn't a tear down........there was a swapping out of FA eligible talent for rookies using assets that could have otherwise been used to just add that talent to the existing talent..........hence the treading of the water of mediocrity.

 

2) As for the oddsmakers.........it's not about wins........it's about the ODDS TO WIN THE SB.    That speaks to this organization's inability to escape mediocrity.   Insight and courage are required to get out of the hole and the front office has been short on those at key times over the last couple of decades.

 

3) I'm not saying THEY'RE stupid.........I'm saying your perception of what they've done is conveniently incorrect.

 

Well, we disagree.  That doesn't make you right, by the way.  And I'm not suggesting that everything McD and Beane have done is what I would do...but I don't know how anyone can look at the transactions and come to any other conclusion than a tear-down and rebuild.  Rebuild doesn't necessarily mean "younger."

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1 hour ago, eball said:

 

Well, we disagree.  That doesn't make you right, by the way.  And I'm not suggesting that everything McD and Beane have done is what I would do...but I don't know how anyone can look at the transactions and come to any other conclusion than a tear-down and rebuild.  Rebuild doesn't necessarily mean "younger."

 

 

Because they didn't tear it down.

 

How hard is this to understand?

 

They LITERALLY kept all of the older players that we were expecting the next regime to be shopping to replace over the next couple of seasons............and got rid of the players that they had current or pending free agency decisions to make on.

 

It's hard for people to remember this but McD inherited the 7th best scoring offense in the NFL and a very talented defense............this wasn't some old-decrepit group.................it was a talented group and the narrative at the time of Rex' firing was NOT the they were in cap hell........because THEY WEREN'T.    

 

Like Jauron/Levy before them............McDermott and Beane just chose to re-set and extend their own timeline without doing a tear down.

 

My contention is that McD didn't trust his ability to take control of this kind of locker room...................he was a nobody with zero prior experience as a HC at any level.............and the toughest to win over are those in their primes with free agency leverage..........so he cleared the deck of those guys(much to the 👍 of talent needy contenders).    

 

Whereas guys like Pederson and McVay and Anthony Lynn immediately embraced similar roster profiles and have had prolific starts to their HC careers.......in all cases under probably even more difficult circumstances..........McD wasn't up to it.    

 

He wanted more time.

 

Hopefully it works.   

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4 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Because they didn't tear it down.

 

How hard is this to understand?

 

They LITERALLY kept all of the older players that we were expecting the next regime to be shopping to replace over the next couple of seasons............and got rid of the players that they had current or pending free agency decisions to make on.

 

It's hard for people to remember this but McD inherited the 7th best scoring offense in the NFL and a very talented defense............this wasn't some old-decrepit group.................it was a talented group and the narrative at the time of Rex' firing was NOT the they were in cap hell........because THEY WEREN'T.    

 

Like Jauron/Levy before them............McDermott and Beane just chose to re-set and extend their own timeline without doing a tear down.

 

My contention is that McD didn't trust his ability to take control of this kind of locker room...................he was a nobody with zero prior experience as a HC at any level.............and the toughest to win over are those in their primes with free agency leverage..........so he cleared the deck of those guys(much to the 👍 of talent needy contenders).    

 

Whereas guys like Pederson and McVay and Anthony Lynn immediately embraced similar roster profiles and have had prolific starts to their HC careers.......in all cases under probably even more difficult circumstances..........McD wasn't up to it.    

 

He wanted more time.

 

Hopefully it works.   

 

Quarterback, quarterback, and quarterback.

 

Changes a lot.

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Just now, eball said:

 

Quarterback, quarterback, and quarterback.

 

Changes a lot.

So you're saying QB should have been the initial top priority? Kind of makes McD's big first decision look stupid, doesn't it?

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21 minutes ago, LSHMEAB said:

So you're saying QB should have been the initial top priority? Kind of makes McD's big first decision look stupid, doesn't it?

This has been brought up before, but that decision had everything to do with the timing of the GM change. McD wasn’t going to draft what he hoped to be the franchise qB of his team without his new GM and FO in place. He wasn’t going to ride with a QB selected by a GM who was being fired the next day. He’s a defensive coach too - he wasn’t going to decide on the QB on his own without having that background. It Is what it is. They could have fired Whaley at the same time they fired Rex,  but I’m not sure the Pegulas realized what a mess Whaley was until McD observed it was not a good situation and told them. 

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1 minute ago, YoloinOhio said:

This has been brought up before, but that decision had everything to do with the timing of the GM change. McD wasn’t going to draft what he hoped to be the franchise qB of his team without his new GM and FO in place. He wasn’t going to ride with a QB selected by a GM who was being fired the next day. Is what it is. They could have fired Whaley at the same time they fired Rex,  but I’m not sure the Pegulas realized what a mess Whaley was until McD observed it was not a good situation and told them. 

If McD had the ba**s to oust the tenured GM, you'd think he may have had the ba**s to draft a certain QB who shall remain nameless.

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9 minutes ago, LSHMEAB said:

If McD had the ba**s to oust the tenured GM, you'd think he may have had the ba**s to draft a certain QB who shall remain nameless.

I guess? I don’t think he felt qualified to decide which QB to draft. Maybe a coach like Gase for example who is an OC/QB guy would pull the trigger. McD was a DC. 

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1 minute ago, YoloinOhio said:

I guess? I don’t think he felt qualified to decide which QB to draft. Maybe a coach like Gase for example who is an OC/QB guy would pull the trigger. McD was a DC. 

I get it. I understand the circumstances around the decision(or lackthereof). It was something of a glib response to the poster who cited QB as the reason other coach's have had immediate success.

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