Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
YoloinOhio

Report: Bills working on extension for Jordan Phillips

Recommended Posts

4 minutes ago, Bray Wyatt said:

 

Just because he doesnt think its fair to call it the worst move in history doesnt mean he thinks its a great signing either

 

 

Then if they (or you) have a nomination for Bills worst UFA signing.........step up and illustrate who and why.........or shut up.

 

Just saying "I disagree and you are stupid" does not a point make.........and the venom indicates a polar opposite opinion........hence my response.

 

The Bills actually don't have a history of signing UFA's that have totally flamed out and cost them massive amounts of money/cap room.

 

Their $10M per year deals are actually pretty few in UFA............so Star is fairly unique...........the only recent comparison of a majorly disappointing deal that the Bills were hamstrung by is Charles Clay and for all his faults Clay has been a good blocker and one of the more productive receiving TE's in team history.........so an invisible $10M DT is definitely worse.

 

 Star was a lump last year..........the people calling it a bad signing were basing that on his modest play in Carolina..........but then his drop-off in his first season from his production in the same defense in Carolina was PRECIPITOUS.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Then if they (or you) have a nomination for Bills worst UFA signing.........step up and illustrate who and why.........or shut up.

 

Just saying "I disagree and you are stupid" does not a point make.........and the venom indicates a polar opposite opinion........hence my response.

 

The Bills actually don't have a history of signing UFA's that have totally flamed out and cost them massive amounts of money/cap room.

 

Their $10M per year deals are actually pretty few in UFA............so Star is fairly unique...........the only recent comparison of a majorly disappointing deal that the Bills were hamstrung by is Charles Clay and for all his faults Clay has been a good blocker and one of the more productive receiving TE's in team history.........so an invisible $10M DT is definitely worse.

 

 Star was a lump last year..........the people calling it a bad signing were basing that on his modest play in Carolina..........but then his drop-off in his first season from his production in the same defense in Carolina was PRECIPITOUS.

 

The people who say "well Star isn't about stats" presume that is the basis on which he is being judged. It's not. Those of us who think he is at best passable despite being paid like a difference maker do understand his job. We just don't think he did it all that well in 2018.

  • Like (+1) 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Then if they (or you) have a nomination for Bills worst UFA signing.........step up and illustrate who and why.........or shut up.

 

Just saying "I disagree and you are stupid" does not a point make.........and the venom indicates a polar opposite opinion........hence my response.

 

The Bills actually don't have a history of signing UFA's that have totally flamed out and cost them massive amounts of money/cap room.

 

Their $10M per year deals are actually pretty few in UFA............so Star is fairly unique...........the only recent comparison of a majorly disappointing deal that the Bills were hamstrung by is Charles Clay and for all his faults Clay has been a good blocker and one of the more productive receiving TE's in team history.........so an invisible $10M DT is definitely worse.

 

 Star was a lump last year..........the people calling it a bad signing were basing that on his modest play in Carolina..........but then his drop-off in his first season from his production in the same defense in Carolina was PRECIPITOUS.

 

Well why dont you ask the guy you were responding to? Its on him to back up his statement

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

The people who say "well Star isn't about stats" presume that is the basis on which he is being judged. It's not. Those of us who think he is at best passable despite being paid like a difference maker do understand his job. We just don't think he did it all that well in 2018.

 

I guess that's where the disagreement lies. He isn't being paid like a difference maker. He has the 15th highest average salary out of every DT. He is right between Dontari Poe and Cory Liuget on the salary list. I'd say that's a fair estimation of where his value lies. And the most recent contracts will always be slightly higher than the ones before. To me, Star is perfect value because I don't need an elite run stuffer in the modern NFL. Average to slightly above average is all I'm looking for, and that's exactly what our run defense was in 2018. $10 million per year isn't that much anymore. The salary cap increase this year alone pays his salary. The real difference makers are making over $15 million per year.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Bray Wyatt said:

 

Well why dont you ask the guy you were responding to? Its on him to back up his statement

 

 

I was responding to you because you interjected yourself into the discussion.:doh:

 

I don't care about their opinion.......based on their initial response I'm assured it will be an embarrassingly unjustifiable take...........so better to let it be.

 

I'm just showing you how this message board thing works.

 

Now you know..........you're welcome.:beer:

  • Like (+1) 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

I guess that's where the disagreement lies. He isn't being paid like a difference maker. He has the 15th highest average salary out of every DT. He is right between Dontari Poe and Cory Liuget on the salary list. I'd say that's a fair estimation of where his value lies. And the most recent contracts will always be slightly higher than the ones before. To me, Star is perfect value because I don't need an elite run stuffer in the modern NFL. Average to slightly above average is all I'm looking for, and that's exactly what our run defense was in 2018. $10 million per year isn't that much anymore. The salary cap increase this year alone pays his salary. The real difference makers are making over $15 million per year.

 

That's fair in the sense of him not being paid like an elite DT - but a guy on that money is still being paid as a difference maker. When I look at the way he actually played in 2018 he wasn't anywhere close to the 15th best DT in the league. He'd be struggling to break the top 50. He wasn't even the best run stuffer on the Bills. The rookie they took in the 3rd round was more effective against the run (I know Star played more snaps and it isn't quite an apples to apples comparison but it is still true). You could have got Star's production at half the cost quite easily.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, HappyDays said:

 

I guess that's where the disagreement lies. He isn't being paid like a difference maker. He has the 15th highest average salary out of every DT. He is right between Dontari Poe and Cory Liuget on the salary list. I'd say that's a fair estimation of where his value lies. And the most recent contracts will always be slightly higher than the ones before. To me, Star is perfect value because I don't need an elite run stuffer in the modern NFL. Average to slightly above average is all I'm looking for, and that's exactly what our run defense was in 2018. $10 million per year isn't that much anymore. The salary cap increase this year alone pays his salary. The real difference makers are making over $15 million per year.

 

 

I've seen some reach tactics on TSW before..............but wow.

 

There is little comparison between the deals Liuget and Poe have versus Star's.............Liuget is on the end of his deal(AND he's getting cut)........but SD got his best years...........and Poe got $10M guaranteed last offseason while Star got $25M guaranteed.

 

I don't know if you are that ignorant of how the salary cap works and the true value of contracts...........or you are just trying to be willfully misleading hoping the sheep buy it....... but suffice to say presenting that weak sh*t in response to Gunner is impressively disrespectful to someone who consistently provides well informed takes.:thumbsup:

  • Like (+1) 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

That's fair in the sense of him not being paid like an elite DT - but a guy on that money is still being paid as a difference maker. When I look at the way he actually played in 2018 he wasn't anywhere close to the 15th best DT in the league. He'd be struggling to break the top 50. He wasn't even the best run stuffer on the Bills. The rookie they took in the 3rd round was more effective against the run (I know Star played more snaps and it isn't quite an apples to apples comparison but it is still true). You could have got Star's production at half the cost quite easily.

 

I don't evaluate film like you do so I'm not going to try and rank him. Ideally you'd want to rank him with other run stuffers. He is obviously not a top 10 DT and he isn't being paid as one. He isn't even a top 20 DT, but some of those in the top 20 are on rookie deals so you can't really compare their salary. In any case it depends on what you mean by difference maker. Do teams specifically game plan around him, no. Did he improve the run defense, I think the answer is a definite yes. This was brought up earlier in the thread, Carolina's rush defense declined when he left and ours improved after we signed him. I know there are other factors - Milano improved, Shaq looked better, Taron Johnson defended the run well - but the biggest difference we made was adding Star. And that was with Edmunds struggling against the run most of the year.

 

Here's Football Outsider's defensive line rankings:

 

https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/dl

 

They give us the 9th best in run blocking, and #1 overall in stuffed percentage. On 2nd level yards we ranked 24th. That signals to me that Star did his job well, but when rushers made it through him the LBs didn't do their jobs.

 

In 2017 they had us 28th best in run blocking and 10th in stuffed percentage.

 

Looks to me like Star was a difference maker.

  • Like (+1) 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

Here's Football Outsider's defensive line rankings:

 

https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/dl

 

They give us the 9th best in run blocking, and #1 overall in stuffed percentage. On 2nd level yards we ranked 24th. That signals to me that Star did his job well, but when rushers made it through him the LBs didn't do their jobs.

 

In 2017 they had us 28th best in run blocking and 10th in stuffed percentage.

 

Looks to me like Star was a difference maker.

This pretty much matches the eye test, imo. Edmunds struggled mightily at times to fill, mostly because he was hesitant to commit to what he was seeing. And when he wasn’t being hesitant, teams were taking advantage of his over pursuit as well. Not surprising, especially earlier on in the season when he was sipping from a fire hose. Better LB play next season will greatly improve the perception of our DL’s run stopping ability. 

  • Like (+1) 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

I don't evaluate film like you do so I'm not going to try and rank him. Ideally you'd want to rank him with other run stuffers. He is obviously not a top 10 DT and he isn't being paid as one. He isn't even a top 20 DT, but some of those in the top 20 are on rookie deals so you can't really compare their salary. In any case it depends on what you mean by difference maker. Do teams specifically game plan around him, no. Did he improve the run defense, I think the answer is a definite yes. This was brought up earlier in the thread, Carolina's rush defense declined when he left and ours improved after we signed him. I know there are other factors - Milano improved, Shaq looked better, Taron Johnson defended the run well - but the biggest difference we made was adding Star. And that was with Edmunds struggling against the run most of the year.

 

Here's Football Outsider's defensive line rankings:

 

https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/dl

 

They give us the 9th best in run blocking, and #1 overall in stuffed percentage. On 2nd level yards we ranked 24th. That signals to me that Star did his job well, but when rushers made it through him the LBs didn't do their jobs.

 

In 2017 they had us 28th best in run blocking and 10th in stuffed percentage.

 

Looks to me like Star was a difference maker.

 

With all due respect, the relevant stat to look at from football outsiders when considering the overall run game effectiveness of the DLine is "Adjusted line yards". In 2018 we ranked 10th with 4.15. In 2017 we ranked 21st with 4.18 which is improvement - but not a massive improvement. The biggest factor in the jump in ranking is actually the performance of other teams. 4.15 good enough for 10th best in 2018 would only have ranked 19th best in 2017. We were better against the run - but that was addition by subtraction. Adolphus Washington played DT for half of 2017 and was probably the worst player in the NFL regularly seeing the field during that period. I'd say that the 0.03 improvement in the adjusted line yards score from Football Outsiders could very easily be explained by replacing Adolphus Washington.... even if the replacement was an inanimate object.... more than it being explained by the $10m per year man. And as I say again - watching the tape Star was outperformed against the run by Harrison Phillips. A 3rd round pick who was making less than a 10th of Star's money.

  • Like (+1) 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Lets be real though...he came in midseason not knowing the system or playbook on a team that already had Star and Kyle along with rookie Horrible Harry.  Wasnt like he was suddenly going to start of either Kyle or Star, especially not having a full offseason and regular season with the team and playbook.  

 

So still playing one third of the snaps under those conditions is actually impressive.  He quickly carved his way into the rotation as a midseason arrival.  Why do people expect he was going to play more than that under those circumstances?  This is where once again "stats" do not tell the whole story without the context.  

 

And I dont say that to advocate for say $10m a year, I say that specifically about your criticism of the 1/3 snaps without applying the context to that part of the information.  

 

It wasn’t meant as a criticism. I simply stated a fact. I didn’t say Phillips only played a third of the snaps because.......

 

It was a direct reply to someone saying pay the guy 10 million a year.

 

 

  • Like (+1) 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Then if they (or you) have a nomination for Bills worst UFA signing.........step up and illustrate who and why.........or shut up.

 

Just saying "I disagree and you are stupid" does not a point make.........and the venom indicates a polar opposite opinion........hence my response.

 

The Bills actually don't have a history of signing UFA's that have totally flamed out and cost them massive amounts of money/cap room.

 

Their $10M per year deals are actually pretty few in UFA............so Star is fairly unique...........the only recent comparison of a majorly disappointing deal that the Bills were hamstrung by is Charles Clay and for all his faults Clay has been a good blocker and one of the more productive receiving TE's in team history.........so an invisible $10M DT is definitely worse.

 

 Star was a lump last year..........the people calling it a bad signing were basing that on his modest play in Carolina..........but then his drop-off in his first season from his production in the same defense in Carolina was PRECIPITOUS.

Rob Johnson and Derrick Dockery were much worse free agent signings. 

 

It is way too soon to say Star was a bad or good signing. You really can't do that until he plays out his contract or is cut. 

Edited by Watkins90

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not for nothing, but we acquired Rob Johnson in a trade.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
46 minutes ago, Binghamton Beast said:

 

It wasn’t meant as a criticism. I simply stated a fact. I didn’t say Phillips only played a third of the snaps because.......

 

It was a direct reply to someone saying pay the guy 10 million a year.

 

 

I think if they offered him 10 million a year he would already be signed.....

 

That is probably what is taking so long on this.....Beane is being judicious

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
37 minutes ago, K-9 said:

Not for nothing, but we acquired Rob Johnson in a trade.

 

 

I'm just happy that 50% of his examples were UFA's.

 

I keep my expectations for an advanced argument low.

 

It's OK to accept Star as a franchise-historically significant UFA disappointment while also understanding that there are worse players in the NFL.  

 

 It's simply a production/$ equation.   

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

I think if they offered him 10 million a year he would already be signed.....

 

That is probably what is taking so long on this.....Beane is being judicious

 

...longer than a Congressional hearing....Schumer must be his agent......

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Then if they (or you) have a nomination for Bills worst UFA signing.........step up and illustrate who and why.........or shut up.

 

Just saying "I disagree and you are stupid" does not a point make.........and the venom indicates a polar opposite opinion........hence my response.

 

The Bills actually don't have a history of signing UFA's that have totally flamed out and cost them massive amounts of money/cap room.

 

Their $10M per year deals are actually pretty few in UFA............so Star is fairly unique...........the only recent comparison of a majorly disappointing deal that the Bills were hamstrung by is Charles Clay and for all his faults Clay has been a good blocker and one of the more productive receiving TE's in team history.........so an invisible $10M DT is definitely worse.

 

 Star was a lump last year..........the people calling it a bad signing were basing that on his modest play in Carolina..........but then his drop-off in his first season from his production in the same defense in Carolina was PRECIPITOUS.

 

Mark Anderson was one of the worse DL FA signings in Bills history.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, ColoradoBills said:

 

Mark Anderson was one of the worse DL FA signings in Bills history.

 

 

Yup that was a fail.

 

The enormity of the Star fail is that half of his contract ($25M) is guaranteed.

 

The Panthers got a player of similar talent in Dontari Poe to replace Lotulelei.......but for a MUCH smaller guarantee.

 

He sucked too but the Bills are married to Star for another season or two where the Panthers can move on from Poe pretty easily because only $10M of his deal was guaranteed.

 

Beane got hosed hard on that deal.

 

He hasn't given the impression that he's a particularly good judge of market value to this point.  

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 minutes ago, ColoradoBills said:

 

Mark Anderson was one of the worse DL FA signings in Bills history.

 

...Jesus CB, that's a GREAT call.......Loni was better.............:thumbsup:....Marv rushing to get Kawica Mitchell at 12:01AM with not a damn GM behind him in line was another beauty....

Edited by OldTimeAFLGuy
  • Like (+1) 1
  • Haha (+1) 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Yup that was a fail.

 

The enormity of the Star fail is that half of his contract ($25M) is guaranteed.

 

The Panthers got a player of similar talent in Dontari Poe to replace Lotulelei.......but for a MUCH smaller guarantee.

 

He sucked too but the Bills are married to Star for another season or two where the Panthers can move on from Poe pretty easily because only $10M of his deal was guaranteed.

 

Beane got hosed hard on that deal.

 

He hasn't given the impression that he's a particularly good judge of market value to this point.  

 

 

I'll give you (and I have said this before) that Beane overpaid some for Star IMO,  but I don't think it reflects badly on Beane's competence.

Star's play this coming year will tell more about this move. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Watkins90 said:

Rob Johnson and Derrick Dockery were much worse free agent signings. 

Just for the record, and admittedly not a proud moment, OBD traded their #1 pick in 1998 draft to JAGS for Johnson (pick became Fred Taylor, RB).

 

They wish they just signed him as a FA!

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, ColoradoBills said:

 

I'll give you (and I have said this before) that Beane overpaid some for Star IMO,  but I don't think it reflects badly on Beane's competence.

Star's play this coming year will tell more about this move. 

 

 

...certainly agree CB with "overpaid some" being the key......from previous affiliations, he knew exactly what type of player he was getting and was comfortable paying a bit more...no harm no foul IMO...........

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, K-9 said:

This pretty much matches the eye test, imo. Edmunds struggled mightily at times to fill, mostly because he was hesitant to commit to what he was seeing. And when he wasn’t being hesitant, teams were taking advantage of his over pursuit as well. Not surprising, especially earlier on in the season when he was sipping from a fire hose. Better LB play next season will greatly improve the perception of our DL’s run stopping ability. 

this is where context comes into play. Star and Edmunds are directly linked. if they both do their job ? The A B gaps should be a no go zone.

over simplified by me but true enough

38 minutes ago, ColoradoBills said:

 

I'll give you (and I have said this before) that Beane overpaid some for Star IMO,  but I don't think it reflects badly on Beane's competence.

Star's play this coming year will tell more about this move. 

It needed to be done.

 The contract is in question , but if that is what it took to bring him here? so be it.

eye test told me he was slow out of the gate  but steadily improved.

 

  • Like (+1) 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

I'm just happy that 50% of his examples were UFA's.

 

I keep my expectations for an advanced argument low.

 

It's OK to accept Star as a franchise-historically significant UFA disappointment while also understanding that there are worse players in the NFL.  

 

 It's simply a production/$ equation.   

That is the bottom line, regardless. Sometimes you get less production for the buck, sometimes more, and sometimes players give a little of each at various times. We're getting great value out of some players and less value out of others. The story of every team. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, K-9 said:

That is the bottom line, regardless. Sometimes you get less production for the buck, sometimes more, and sometimes players give a little of each at various times. We're getting great value out of some players and less value out of others. The story of every team. 

I concur with this. I believe Star is solid in his role, but I'd be lying if I said I didn't think a younger fella (H Phillips) could come very close to matching his production. We've got some great value deals(both safeties), lots of guys on rookie deals. This doesn't appear to be a terrific value deal, but those are the breaks.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...