Amazon HQ2 Decision - NYC & VA

[IDBillzFan]

Starting to see details released on Amazon picking NYC and VA for HQ2.

 

The tax incentives have people a little nuts, as does word that the Commonwealth will give Amazon a heads up on any FOIA requests.

 

Incentives aside, I find it interesting that Amazon picked places with really high costs of living. 

 

Interested in PPP take on this.

 

 

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

Government in bed with big corporations? Who'da thunk it?

 

Babylon's gotta be financed somehow.

 

 

[IDBillzFan]

We pick on Ocasio-Cortez, but she raises some valid points here in this thread.

 

 

[keepthefaith]

8 minutes ago, LABillzFan said:

Starting to see details released on Amazon picking NYC and VA for HQ2.

 

The tax incentives have people a little nuts, as does word that the Commonwealth will give Amazon a heads up on any FOIA requests.

 

Incentives aside, I find it interesting that Amazon picked places with really high costs of living. 

 

Interested in PPP take on this.

 

 

 

Heck you couldn't put it in a more sensible place cost-wise like Nashville and ask people in Tennessee to buy-in to their left coast culture. 

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

Just now, LABillzFan said:

We pick on Ocasio-Cortez, but she raises some valid points here in this thread.

 

 

 

Yeah, I'm generally anti-tax-breaks for corporate relocation. They rarely, if ever pay for themselves and are simply a vehicle for billionaires to make more billions.

 

[snafu]

If anyone remembers what LIC was seven years ago compared to what it is now, they could tell you that LIC didn't really need Amazon to come to town.  I'm not sniffing at it, mind you.  It solidifies the conversion of that part of Queens from useless wasteland to prime real estate.  One of my best friends is on the Board of the Queens Chamber of Commerce and I guaranty he's doing backflips today.  My only gripe is that Amazon could probably have gone to Newark and done more benefit to a city that needs it more.

 

Any/every site was going to offer tax incentives for Amazon to go there, so complaining about it really overlooks the reality of the situation.  Ocasio-Cortez should know that NYC has its own income tax, and NYS has its commuter tax. She should be complaining that the money gets spent right, not saying that the community is "outraged".  I'm just glad that LIC isn't in Queens Congressional District 14.  She'd probably find a way to ***** it up.  Now if the Mayor would just lay off...

 

 

 

 

[IDBillzFan]

14 minutes ago, snafu said:

If anyone remembers what LIC was seven years ago compared to what it is now, they could tell you that LIC didn't really need Amazon to come to town.  I'm not sniffing at it, mind you.  It solidifies the conversion of that part of Queens from useless wasteland to prime real estate. 

 

I haven't been near LIC in years, so I ask this honestly: is there not a fear of displacing people there who ultimately won't be able to afford the area once Amazon moves in?

[keepthefaith]

43 minutes ago, snafu said:

  Ocasio-Cortez should know that NYC has its own income tax, and NYS has its commuter tax.

 

[snafu]

9 minutes ago, LABillzFan said:

 

I haven't been near LIC in years, so I ask this honestly: is there not a fear of displacing people there who ultimately won't be able to afford the area once Amazon moves in?

 

Of all the neighborhoods in the City, LIC is the only one that safely hasn't displaced more than a handful of residents.  Most of the new buildings were constructed on old warehouse/manufacturing sites.  There are at least ten new high-rise buildings of mixed-use.  In fact, these went up so fast, that there's probably not currently enough small or medium commercial capacity to serve all the newer residents. 

 

Also, the City has incentivized developers to include low-income units in all new construction -- used to be a minimum of 20%, now it is more like 40% -- but it is a convoluted formula -- which makes things easier to circumvent.  The basic premise is that developers get to build more regular/high-income floor area as a tradeoff.  I've got my issues with how effective that is (probably deserves its own thread), but it doesn't hurt.  The City's 10-year plan is here 

http://www.nyc.gov/html/housing/assets/downloads/pdf/housing_plan.pdf

 

A lot of pie in the sky and mixed results so far.  Overall, the City is unaffordable to most, and becoming moreso.  However, the market for apartment rentals has leveled off, and even come down in parts of the city (even Manhattan).  Most of the time, the market takes care of itself, but really for regular people, and not low-income, and kids just starting out.  Landlords have to provide amenities for units that they used to be able to rent from a list of people.

 

 

 

 

[BeginnersMind]

4 hours ago, LABillzFan said:

 

Incentives aside, I find it interesting that Amazon picked places with really high costs of living. 

 

 

 

Attractive places though for the tech and white collar top talent Amazon wants to hire. I always thought it would be Northern Va but I'm happy that NYC got a slice too. It's good for the East Coast to get some big high tech investment. 

 

As far as the crazy tax incentives, it is indeed nuts. I've read that the incentives are often not worth it but I haven't seen enough data to reach a conclusion on that and it doesn't seem right in this case. Adding 25000 jobs averaging 150K each is ~4B in just personal income a year. The revenue spun off by those jobs and the work spun off into other businesses by proximity to those jobs would seem, on a back of a napkin, to easily make up for 2B in tax incentives over not too long of a time.  

 

Most cities would fall over themselves to get a 25000 jobs generating 4B a year in income plus all the other revenue spun off. I'd be curious to see economists, and not socialist whiners like Ocasio-Cortez, put up a real numbers analysis. Seems like it will be a huge net positive if Amazon sticks around.  

Edited November 14, 2018 by BeginnersMind

[KD in CA]

3 hours ago, LABillzFan said:

We pick on Ocasio-Cortez, but she raises some valid points here in this thread.

 

 

 

She does indeed. Having cities/states compete for business with taxpayer dollars is a net negative for the nation. It's the same thing as the NFL trying to hold cities hostage for a new stadium under threat of moving them to LA.

[The_Dude]

3 hours ago, LABillzFan said:

We pick on Ocasio-Cortez, but she raises some valid points here in this thread.

 

 

 

No she doesn’t even though she does. NYC was gonna have to give tax breaks to work that deal. Any city was. Because NYC did think of the taxable wages that will come with the new headquarters. 

 

 

4 minutes ago, KD in CA said:

 

She does indeed. Having cities/states compete for business with taxpayer dollars is a net negative for the nation. It's the same thing as the NFL trying to hold cities hostage for a new stadium under threat of moving them to LA.

 

......this has been a thing since forever. 

 

Thats why you see old walmarts 1/2 mile away from old Walmart’s. Walmart comes in and gets x years of city tax breaks. X years go bye, and Walmart tells the city it wants new tax breaks, the city says no, Walmart moves 1/2 mile down the road and leaves the city with a vacant building. 

 

Theres no changing this rigged system. Everything is too greased and too many people are in on it. There’s no stopping it. You have to manage it and not let it get too out of hand. But there’s no reigning it in. 

 

Take on the military industrial complex while while you’re at it. That’s just as futile. 

[3rdnlng]

26 minutes ago, The_Dude said:

 

No she doesn’t even though she does. NYC was gonna have to give tax breaks to work that deal. Any city was. Because NYC did think of the taxable wages that will come with the new headquarters. 

 

 

 

......this has been a thing since forever. 

 

Thats why you see old walmarts 1/2 mile away from old Walmart’s. Walmart comes in and gets x years of city tax breaks. X years go bye, and Walmart tells the city it wants new tax breaks, the city says no, Walmart moves 1/2 mile down the road and leaves the city with a vacant building. 

 

Theres no changing this rigged system. Everything is too greased and too many people are in on it. There’s no stopping it. You have to manage it and not let it get too out of hand. But there’s no reigning it in. 

 

Take on the military industrial complex while while you’re at it. That’s just as futile. 

No, you are wrong. The reason you see Walmarts replacing Walmarts is that they decided to replace the smaller stores with super stores that sold a full line of groceries. Usually when a Walmart first comes to an area the area around it gets built up and there is seldom an opportunity to just expand. They have to move down the road where there is an new opportunity.

[Teddy KGB]

1 hour ago, BeginnersMind said:

 

Adding 25000 jobs averaging 150K each is 

 

Dont you have to shave 105,000 off that figure to paint an accurate picture of what the amazon workers will make ? 

[BeginnersMind]

Just now, Teddy KGB said:

 

Dont you have to shave 105,000 off that figure to paint an accurate picture of what the amazon workers will make ? 

Not sure what you mean. 

Edited November 14, 2018 by BeginnersMind

[Teddy KGB]

Just now, BeginnersMind said:

Not sure what you mean. 

 

The amazon employees will make 45,000 a year not 150,000 a year no ? 

[BeginnersMind]

3 minutes ago, Teddy KGB said:

 

The amazon employees will make 45,000 a year not 150,000 a year no ? 

 

The average salary of these workers is 150K/year. 

 

"...at least 25,000 new workers, making an average of what the company said would be $150,000."

 

These are high-end white collar job sites. Not warehouse jobs. 

Edited November 14, 2018 by BeginnersMind

[/dev/null]

Anyone else get the vibe that the whole HQ2 competition thing Amazon was running was a scam?  That maybe they had decided long ago where they were locating their HQ2 but saw an opportunity for some free positive PR in the candidate markets while milking Crystal City and NYC for all the extra incentives?

[boyst]

She didn't come up with those ideas. Someone else did.  No, seriously, I doubt that idiot had those ideas. 

[Azalin]

2 hours ago, /dev/null said:

Anyone else get the vibe that the whole HQ2 competition thing Amazon was running was a scam?  That maybe they had decided long ago where they were locating their HQ2 but saw an opportunity for some free positive PR in the candidate markets while milking Crystal City and NYC for all the extra incentives?

 

It's possible I suppose. Austin was one of the cities being considered before Amazon decided to split the 2nd headquarters into two separate campuses, and the city council and chamber of commerce didn't offer them any incentives. We've had so many companies relocate here in recent years that the population had already significantly outgrown the infrastructure. The last thing anyone here wants is another 50K people. We'll do that quickly enough without Amazon.

 

As far as the salaries they were talking of offering, 150-180K were the numbers they floated, so I imagine that's what they're planning to offer in NY and VA.

[plenzmd1]

 

10 hours ago, LABillzFan said:

 

I haven't been near LIC in years, so I ask this honestly: is there not a fear of displacing people there who ultimately won't be able to afford the area once Amazon moves in?

can't speak for there, but just south of the area where "National Landing"(name just made up for this announcement LOL) is located is absolutely going to get devasted by higher rents and gentrification....an area that is heavily Hispanic now. Now the argument is that a good or a bad thing..I can see it both ways.

6 hours ago, /dev/null said:

Anyone else get the vibe that the whole HQ2 competition thing Amazon was running was a scam?  That maybe they had decided long ago where they were locating their HQ2 but saw an opportunity for some free positive PR in the candidate markets while milking Crystal City and NYC for all the extra incentives?

Not a scam at all, but absolutely a business tactic. Companies send out RFPs all the time when they fully intend to keep the incumbent in place or when they already know who they want to partner with..but they want to drive competition and get the best price/deal possible. No one forces anyone to participate

 

BTW, maybe I am reading things wrong, but this seems like VA really made a great deal. $1.1B is all based on funding higher Ed and producing 25K CS degrees as well as a number of Masters degrees. Sorley needed infrastructure is like $250M. Incentive per job is $22k, not even in the top in VA in the last several years. Micron was $63K per job.

 

Overall, I think a great deal for VA

 

https://www.richmond.com/news/virginia/government-politics/general-assembly/we-know-amazon-is-coming-to-virginia-but-now-here/article_2d8a5ebc-07a1-58c3-a252-0bddfc7d9323.html

Edited November 14, 2018 by plenzmd1

[The_Dude]

9 hours ago, 3rdnlng said:

No, you are wrong. The reason you see Walmarts replacing Walmarts is that they decided to replace the smaller stores with super stores that sold a full line of groceries. Usually when a Walmart first comes to an area the area around it gets built up and there is seldom an opportunity to just expand. They have to move down the road where there is an new opportunity.

 

Look, I don’t know if you work for Walmart or something, and I’m sure that’s the case in numerous instances, but I’ve seent it. I seent it. 

[BeginnersMind]

14 hours ago, keepthefaith said:

 

Heck you couldn't put it in a more sensible place cost-wise like Nashville and ask people in Tennessee to buy-in to their left coast culture. 

 

They need a huge base of people to draw from to add 25000-50000 new high-end jobs. Nashville doesn't have the bodies to support that and getting that many top people to move to Nashville is unlikely. Ask a top person to move to NYC for Amazon and it's easier because not only is Amazon there, but so are 10000 other potential employers for your partner and yourself. Amazon wants the deepest talent pool possible, which comes from proximity both to universities and to other big employers.  

 

It was always going to be a big city. I'm just glad it wasn't Boston. ***** them. 

Edited November 14, 2018 by BeginnersMind

[3rdnlng]

1 hour ago, The_Dude said:

 

Look, I don’t know if you work for Walmart or something, and I’m sure that’s the case in numerous instances, but I’ve seent it. I seent it. 

I spent many years in commercial real estate and development, locating regional and national retailers, including Walmart. It doesn't make a lot of sense to build a new store just to get a tax break. Walmart changed their philosophy and decided to build super stores in order to sell a full line of groceries. Stick to what you know, like hating on Muslims.

[GG]

14 hours ago, snafu said:

If anyone remembers what LIC was seven years ago compared to what it is now, they could tell you that LIC didn't really need Amazon to come to town.  I'm not sniffing at it, mind you.  It solidifies the conversion of that part of Queens from useless wasteland to prime real estate.  One of my best friends is on the Board of the Queens Chamber of Commerce and I guaranty he's doing backflips today.  My only gripe is that Amazon could probably have gone to Newark and done more benefit to a city that needs it more.

 

Any/every site was going to offer tax incentives for Amazon to go there, so complaining about it really overlooks the reality of the situation.  Ocasio-Cortez should know that NYC has its own income tax, and NYS has its commuter tax. She should be complaining that the money gets spent right, not saying that the community is "outraged".  I'm just glad that LIC isn't in Queens Congressional District 14.  She'd probably find a way to ***** it up.  Now if the Mayor would just lay off...

 

 

 

 

 

This basically answers some of the other questions raised in this and the New Era thread.   Amazon doesn't need the incentives, but by throwing out the RFP to over 200 communities they got a bidding war.  I don't think that NYS will get the return on its investment because LIC has already been blowing up in the last decade, as you note.  Newark was on the shortlist, but NJ didn't have the capacity to throw in $1.2 billion.

 

The gentrification "concerns" are valid, but all Amazon is going to do is speed up what was already happening on the western ends of Queens & Brooklyn.

[The_Dude]

1 hour ago, 3rdnlng said:

I spent many years in commercial real estate and development, locating regional and national retailers, including Walmart. It doesn't make a lot of sense to build a new store just to get a tax break. Walmart changed their philosophy and decided to build super stores in order to sell a full line of groceries. Stick to what you know, like hating on Muslims.

 

Homeboy, I don't know where you live. But like I said, I've seent it down here in the greater Atlanta area. I read the local news also. I'm sure you want a link. Maybe you should stick to what you know, fluffer. 

[3rdnlng]

1 minute ago, The_Dude said:

 

Homeboy, I don't know where you live. But like I said, I've seent it down here in the greater Atlanta area. I read the local news also. I'm sure you want a link. Maybe you should stick to what you know, fluffer. 

Its hard to take you seriously when you continue to use Urban Dictionary words. Regardless, this is a subject that I know very well and you don't. Generally speaking, Walmart does not own its stores. They lease them from a developer/investor that actually went through the process of getting them approved and constructed. They aren't in the business of building stores in order to get tax breaks. They are in the business of selling product. They made the decision that in most cases they would only build super stores (with some exceptions) that sold a full line of groceries. They also decided to replace many of their present stores with super stores if the demographics were right. I have been involved with that process and sat in meetings with their reps, lawyers, developers and land sellers.

 

Homeboy? Stick to what I know? You have proven that you don't want to learn a damn thing, so it's probably best to just stick to what you already know. Hate some more Muslims and shoot some more dogs.

[The_Dude]

11 minutes ago, 3rdnlng said:

Its hard to take you seriously when you continue to use Urban Dictionary words. Regardless, this is a subject that I know very well and you don't. Generally speaking, Walmart does not own its stores. They lease them from a developer/investor that actually went through the process of getting them approved and constructed. They aren't in the business of building stores in order to get tax breaks. They are in the business of selling product. They made the decision that in most cases they would only build super stores (with some exceptions) that sold a full line of groceries. They also decided to replace many of their present stores with super stores if the demographics were right. I have been involved with that process and sat in meetings with their reps, lawyers, developers and land sellers.

 

Homeboy? Stick to what I know? You have proven that you don't want to learn a damn thing, so it's probably best to just stick to what you already know. Hate some more Muslims and shoot some more dogs.

 

Well if this is something you're good at, then you suck at what you're good at.

 

Also, I freaking love dogs. I'd shoot you before a dog.  

[3rdnlng]

39 minutes ago, The_Dude said:

 

Well if this is something you're good at, then you suck at what you're good at.

 

Also, I freaking love dogs. I'd shoot you before a dog.  

You "think" you know what you are talking about and are committed to your ignorant position. I know what I am talking about and you refuse to learn anything. In addition you tell me I suck at something you are incapable of understanding. You truly aren't very good at this.

[Kevbeau]

4 hours ago, BeginnersMind said:

.  

 

It was always going to be a big city. I'm just glad it wasn't Boston. ***** them. 

Seems to be the feeling in Atlanta as well.

[The_Dude]

1 hour ago, 3rdnlng said:

You "think" you know what you are talking about and are committed to your ignorant position. I know what I am talking about and you refuse to learn anything. In addition you tell me I suck at something you are incapable of understanding. You truly aren't very good at this.

 

My ignorant position is based on something I’ve seent. 

 

Im sure you do something for a living. I’m sure you’re awful at it. 

 

Now, GOOD DAY, SIR. 

[3rdnlng]

4 minutes ago, The_Dude said:

 

My ignorant position is based on something I’ve seent. 

 

Im sure you do something for a living. I’m sure you’re awful at it. 

 

Now, GOOD DAY, SIR. 

Your ignorant position is based on something you seent? Were you high? It seems like you must be high a lot what with all the bs you espouse. Or it could be that you are just dumb. Or, dumb and high. That's the one I'm going with.

[TakeYouToTasker]

The proper solution for the state of New York, and other states, would be to sell/lease it's commercial shipping lanes to Amazon for the cost of performing maintenance and repairs on the highways running adjacent to them.

 

It's a mutually beneficial arrangement.

Edited November 14, 2018 by TakeYouToTasker

[The_Dude]

18 minutes ago, 3rdnlng said:

Your ignorant position is based on something you seent? Were you high? It seems like you must be high a lot what with all the bs you espouse. Or it could be that you are just dumb. Or, dumb and high. That's the one I'm going with.

 

Calm down, fluffer. 

[snafu]

Lots of protesting in Queens today. Initial reaction is that the mayor and governor gave away too much.

 

[BeginnersMind]

19 minutes ago, snafu said:

Lots of protesting in Queens today. Initial reaction is that the mayor and governor gave away too much.

 

 

They will shut up and be fine. A passing ripple. 

[3rdnlng]

34 minutes ago, snafu said:

Lots of protesting in Queens today. Initial reaction is that the mayor and governor gave away too much.

 

A simple solution would be to ask The_Dude to sound in on the real estate ramifications and if Amazon is going to move their headquarters once their tax breaks are up.

[Warren Zevon]

If anyone ever needs an expert on Wal-Mart I'll be sure to recommend 3rdong.

[3rdnlng]

4 minutes ago, peace out said:

If anyone ever needs an expert on Wal-Mart I'll be sure to recommend 3rdong.

Gary, Gary, Gary, why are you so concerned about my *****?

[Miracle Bills]

22 hours ago, LABillzFan said:

We pick on Ocasio-Cortez, but she raises some valid points here in this thread.

 

 

Her points are not valid. Where do you think the money to fix subways and invest money in the community comes from? Does the money grow on trees? No, businesses move in and they hire people and those people pay taxes and they buy homes and they buy goods, etc.  Amazon's with tax breaks is much better than no Amazon at all. The problem is childish people like Socialist Ocasio-Cortez thinks money grows on trees.  You know the problem with socialism, you eventually run out of other peoples money.