How many coaches/GMs survive a tank?

[Ridgewaycynic2013]

Andy Reid and John Madden seem to be the only two past or present coaches or GMs capable of having a tank run over them.

[iinii]

Just now, uticaclub said:

The defense is a paper tiger. Whenever a team needs to score, they do. There's no reason to show anything against the Bills, just hold on to the ball. Tom Brady could have knelt every play and we still lose 7-6.

 

Oh wait, I forgot how dominate we were against Baltimore, Chargers & Indy this year

Stats are window dressing. The proof is in the pudding. It is called wins and losses. How many games this year have been blow outs? This is not an elite defense. 

[ctk232]

40 minutes ago, vorpma said:

Tanking breeds losing; what about mediocrity for 16 years, sign a big name free agent - take your pick - make a coaching change, draft poorly and stay in the hunt until December then watch the playoffs minus the Bills in January.  Build up excitement during the off season, keep fan favorites because you are so close (not in reality though), and watch the playoffs minus the Bills in January. Why is it so difficult to understand this is an organization in desperate need of a "rebuild" bringing new culture and identity? Your way we stay mediocre for the next twenty years and repeat the off season hope to the January without the Bills! 2001 - 2016 a total organizational failure! Me, I'm sticking with the rebuild and from I have seen from the "Scientific TBD Polls," so are many others who get it!

The only caveat being in this scenario you can still draft better to get the team over the playoff bubble hump and perennially compete. Though I agree - the Bills franchise was perpetuating mediocrity, even with solid draft picks. However, we didn't start to hit on our late draft picks until these past two drafts, and even then only with Milano and Taron (not nothing). But I wonder what we could have if we retained at least a bit more offensive talent. 

 

No one is arguing this offense isn't that bad, their absolutely horrific, but I feel that most of the reactions here are to that point and not about tanking. It's an utter lack of presence on the offensive side of the ball, and people can't handle it for one season (I get why). In my mind, it's not fun to watch either, but I get that it's part of a rebuild and this, while exceptional, is what was said would happen and what we have to move forward with. I also believe the intention was to tank last year and not have to trade up for their top QB (likely not Allen if we land a top 3 pick) - our defense just played lights out and McD/Beane decided to commit to the playoff run a la bringing in KB. And so we did, and now they've had to work with continuing a rebuild off of a playoff year. That's why you see what's happening in Oakland in Gruden's first year. The Bills just happened to have this 18 year monkey on our backs that the FO decided would be better off removed moving forward than getting a higher pick.

 

To the point of this thread however, it's not a past case study, but if you want an example of a worse offense and more comprehensive tank - look no further than Oakland. It's likely Gruden doesn't want Carr long term, and if anything would have offloaded him pre-trade deadline if he wasn't about to get run out of town and be the first coach investigated for actively attempting to lose (yes, hyperbole). Both teams playing last night only had one win, someone had to come out of it with two, but the Bills aren't alone in this rebuild. Gruden was out there smiling when he increased his point deficit by 27+ and came out today promising to build a title team - it's a tank. 

Edited November 2, 2018 by ctk232

[reddogblitz]

36 minutes ago, JerseyBills said:

It's already worked on defense. . This D has 3 starters from when McD took over and is a top 5 unit littered with talent.

They can heavily focus on offense this off season through draft and/or FA , as well as add some pieces to the D if deemed necessary!

 

The D was massively improved pre tank. We didn't have to tank to rebuild the entire secondary and make it into a crack unit.  I'm really not so sure our D is any better than last year.

 

How is a "top 5" unit exactly?  By what measure?  NFL.com lists them at #6.  However, in points give up which I believe is the true measure of a D, they are 21.

Edited November 2, 2018 by reddogblitz

[bmur66]

I liken this more to drawing a line in your checkbook and starting over

[JerseyBills]

8 minutes ago, uticaclub said:

The defense is a paper tiger. Whenever a team needs to score, they do. There's no reason to show anything against the Bills, just hold on to the ball. Tom Brady could have knelt every play and we still lose 7-6.

 

Oh wait, I forgot how dominate we were against Baltimore, Chargers & Indy this year

When the offense goes 3 n out. Can't score or maintain drives, it's brutal for a defense to actually be successful. 

You left out the fantastic performances @Min , @GB , @Hou , vs Ten and Vs NE , where the D gave up an average of 15.5 ppg! Again , all with a historically bad O . Not too shabby. 

[reddogblitz]

4 minutes ago, ctk232 said:

 

No one is arguing this offense isn't that bad, their absolutely horrific, but I feel that most of the reactions here are to that point and not about tanking. It's an utter lack of presence on the offensive side of the ball, and people can't handle it for one season (I get why). In my mind, it's not fun to watch either, but I get that it's part of a rebuild and this, while exceptional, is what was said would happen and what we have to move forward with.

 

Who said that? 

 

Beane and McDermott told us the plan was to rebuild and win at the same time.  Seemed to be working last year.

[thurst44]

44 minutes ago, mannc said:

If you think the comprehensive offensive collapse we are witnessing in Buffalo bears any similarity whatsoever to what has happened in KC, then I think this discussion is pointless.

Well, we have a much better defense for one thing ;),

 

Honestly, though, I don't think they are the same, but that doesn't mean I don't think we might be on the right track. We have a ton of cap space and draft picks, a promising young LT a young smart QB with strong leadership qualities and a high ceiling from whom I've seen things that give me hope but who may never pull it all together. I'd feel better if he were healthy and getting experience, but what can you do. 

 

I'm curious to see what they do this off-season.

[uticaclub]

13 minutes ago, JerseyBills said:

When the offense goes 3 n out. Can't score or maintain drives, it's brutal for a defense to actually be successful. 

You left out the fantastic performances @Min , @GB , @Hou , vs Ten and Vs NE , where the D gave up an average of 15.5 ppg! Again , all with a historically bad O . Not too shabby. 

Minny was looking past us and focused on their trip to LA on Thursday

 

We lost to Green Bay by 22 points

 

Houston's QB was playing with collapsed lung

 

New England beat us by 19 points.

 

I'll give you Tenn but they also have the 31st ranked offense.

 

All I'm saying is I think teams play a vanilla/preseason offense against us and just focus of not turning the ball over. There's no reason to do anything fancy against us, since we can't score and will probably just beat ourselves. Teams know our defense will be worn out late, so just hold on to the ball, score 1 TD in the 4th and it's a guaranteed victory. 

Edited November 2, 2018 by uticaclub

[MPT]

59 minutes ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said:

 

Its literally working for KC right now.  They drafted their future, sat him for a year, and are now moving forward. 

 

I think you're very confused about something. The Chiefs were first in their division at 12-4 and scored 389 points the year before they drafted Mahomes. Then they went 10-6 (again first in their division) and scored 415 points while sitting Mahomes. At no point did they do anything resembling a tank. They went from 2-14 in 2012 with Crennel to 11-5 with Andy Reid the next year. That's just what happens when you go from a bad coach / GM to a good coach / GM. Good coaches and GM's don't tank in football. They just find talent and put up 400 points a season. 

[Phil The Thrill]

1 hour ago, uticaclub said:

The Chiefs never tanked.

 

They only tanked in the playoffs

[JoshAllenHasBigHands]

2 minutes ago, MPT said:

 

I think you're very confused about something. The Chiefs were first in their division at 12-4 and scored 389 points the year before they drafted Mahomes. Then they went 10-6 (again first in their division) and scored 415 points while sitting Mahomes. At no point did they do anything resembling a tank. They went from 2-14 in 2012 with Crennel to 11-5 with Andy Reid the next year. That's just what happens when you go from a bad coach / GM to a good coach / GM. Good coaches and GM's don't tank in football. They just find talent and put up 400 points a season. 

I mean, if you are going to completely bypass my point, there really isn't much to say here. 

[reddogblitz]

The usual result of a tank is getting fired.

 

Bill Parcells said "The coach that is rebuilding is rebuilding for the next coach that comes in."

 

Certainly was the case for Gus Bradley and Jim Caldwell.

 

If these guys don't turn it around quickly they will face the same fate IMHO.

[MPT]

1 minute ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said:

I mean, if you are going to completely bypass my point, there really isn't much to say here. 

 

You said the Bills are tanking and then claimed the Chiefs did the same thing. Verbatim. 

[JoshAllenHasBigHands]

1 minute ago, MPT said:

 

You said the Bills are tanking and then claimed the Chiefs did the same thing. Verbatim. 

 

What I said was, "They drafted their future, sat him for a year, and are now moving forward."  That explanation is the whole point.  That is what you are ignoring. 

[ctk232]

17 minutes ago, reddogblitz said:

 

Who said that? 

 

Beane and McDermott told us the plan was to rebuild and win at the same time.  Seemed to be working last year.

Both Beane and McD have publicly said we're in a rebuild, and this is what rebuilds look like? I'm not sure of the confusion. A rebuild is not to go 8-8, make 3-5 player moves and start to compete. If your FO says that they are going into a rebuild and making a lot of personnel moves, and you believe that this team is also going to compete, regardless of who said it, then I'm sorry for the massive let down for you that was this season.

 

Can you imagine what the PR backlash would be if they didn't publicly say they were still trying to compete? Even the winless teams of the past, and the Curtis Painter Colts said they were "competing" all the while tanking for Andrew Luck. It's not uncommon, just takes various forms and durations. And no team can publicly say that they "aren't competing" without the NFL execs coming down on them to save face, and losing their fanbase - yet it happens. But to think the team that lucked into the playoffs last year in a year when league performance was at an all time high in terms of parity amongst teams, then you definitely would have had extremely misled expectations for how this year was to go. 

Edited November 2, 2018 by ctk232

[JerseyBills]

19 minutes ago, uticaclub said:

Minny was looking past us and focused on their trip to LA on Thursday

 

We lost to Green Bay by 22 points

 

Houston's QB was playing with collapsed lung

 

New England beat us by 19 points.

 

I'll give you Tenn but they also have the 31st ranked offense.

 

All I'm saying is I think teams play a vanilla/preseason offense against us and just focus of not turning the ball over. There's no reason to do anything fancy against us, since we can't score and will probably just beat ourselves. Teams know our defense will be worn out late, so just hold on to the ball, score 1 TD in the 4th and it's a guaranteed victory. 

Lol. Ok . So you're just vthe type that refuses to give them the credit they deserve. We gave up 22 @GB and 18 vs NE , if you're going to bring up their QB situations,u have to bring up our even worse QB situation. Anybody with an ounce of football i.q knows the D played phenomenal in those 5 games. 

Edited November 2, 2018 by JerseyBills

[Mango]

1 hour ago, Rc2catch said:

To be fair, and I could be wrong..... But has there ever been a gm/coach duo who has actually attempted this on this large of a scale? I know plenty of gm’s  who came in and moved a few guys. Just not sure I have ever seen anyone almost completely gut a team and completely rebuild it. 

I personally don’t like the product on offense this year but I actually like what they have done and the position they’re in for next season and the future. I’m a little on the fence on Allen so it all hinges on that 

 

The right play is to do what the Rams and KC did. Keep what talent you have on the roster, and give up future draft picks to go get your QB. 

 

Not gut gut your team of talent in exchange for a QB and a bad situation. 

[msw2112]

In my opinion, a "tank" is a rebuild in which the franchise intentionally makes moves that will insure maximum losses and thus result in the best draft position.  This is what the Sabres did before they drafted Jack Eichel.

 

I don't think the Bills are doing that.  They are clearly rebuilding, but also trying to perform the best they can with what they have while they rebuild.  The problem is that what they have, on offense, is not very good.  They didn't plan on the retirements of Wood and Incognito, but when they happened, they didn't invest a lot in the position because they knew it was a rebuilding year and they didn't want to get saddled with bad contracts.  They also didn't think that McCarron and Peterman (and Benjamin) would turn out to be as bad as they are.  That may speak to poor personnel evaluation, but given that they are rebuilding, I don't think they wanted to invest a lot of money, as they goal was to clear cap space for the future.

 

So in short, all tanks include a rebuild, but not all rebuilds include a tank.  This is a rebuild without a tank.  They are not trying to lose games to improve draft position, but they are making roster decisions (or a lack of them, as the case may be) with an eye towards future seasons, not this season.

[reddogblitz]

12 minutes ago, ctk232 said:

Both Beane and McD have publicly said we're in a rebuild, and this is what rebuilds look like? I'm not sure of the confusion. A rebuild is not to go 8-8, make 3-5 player moves and start to compete. If your FO says that they are going into a rebuild and making a lot of personnel moves, and you believe that this team is also going to compete, regardless of who said it, then I'm sorry for the massive let down for you that was this season.

 

That's what they're saying now because they totally mis evaluated the QB talent on hand and have had to start schmucks. Surely that was not the plan.  Now they're making excuses.

 

When did the Saints "rebuild"?

When did the Packers "rebuild"?

When did the Steelers "rebuild"?

 

This better work or they will be out on their bun shortly.  They have pissed away any extra runway they may have earned last year by making the playoffs year 1.