Jauronimo Posted September 18, 2018 Posted September 18, 2018 Just now, VW82 said: No they were non-leaders. McD made it pretty clear his priority was re-establishing the culture in the locker room. You don't do that by paying all the bad culture guys or non-leaders, especially if you need to go find new leaders because your old ones are getting too old. Our core was Kyle, EWood, Shady, Lorenzo, and TT, and had Bills decided they needed to move on from TT. What was the alternative? Pay all our malcontents and lock us into 7-9 for the next five years? You are correct. There were no other choices than to be historically bad this year. Hopefully there are enough "good culture" leaders out there to field an NFL roster next year.
BADOLBILZ Posted September 18, 2018 Posted September 18, 2018 2 hours ago, K-9 said: The curse of the perpetual .500 (or there about) team. Constantly treading water and deluding yourselves into thinking you’re just a player or two away when the reality is far different as we’ve seen. Utter nonsense. You should know better. The consistent contenders in the NFL of the past two decades ALL rose from mediocrity. The last time a team with the top pick in the draft parlayed that into any extended period of contention was the Colts with Peyton Manning in 1998.
VW82 Posted September 18, 2018 Posted September 18, 2018 (edited) 18 minutes ago, Jauronimo said: You are correct. There were no other choices than to be historically bad this year. Hopefully there are enough "good culture" leaders out there to field an NFL roster next year. Nice try. Go back and read the OP. This team had limited options because of our cap situation and our aging core. Bills needed to rebuild in the worst way. Take issue with the execution of that - I surely have - but if you're advocating that we should have tried to keep all those guys, you're not looking the facts that McD was facing when he took over. We were always going to have to trade or walk away from some of our big money, bad culture guys because of the cap situation, and we needed new leadership. Edited September 18, 2018 by VW82
Bing Bong Posted September 18, 2018 Posted September 18, 2018 10 minutes ago, Batman1876 said: Star was paid market value Star was paid for a little bit more than the other team that wanted him. pro_football_focus_names_star_lotuleleis_buffalo_bills_deal_among_most_overrated.amp I haven't found a positive review of the signing. But regardless, tired of being in the cap hell Whaley got us in. We could have overpaid for more rotational players.
K-9 Posted September 18, 2018 Posted September 18, 2018 1 minute ago, BADOLBILZ said: Utter nonsense. You should know better. The consistent contenders in the NFL of the past two decades ALL rose from mediocrity. The last time a team with the top pick in the draft parlayed that into any extended period of contention was the Colts with Peyton Manning in 1998. You gonna tell me that Whaley and Co. didn’t think they were one or two players away only to try applying band aid fixes for those areas (read QB). Those .500 seasons DIRECTLY lent itself to that mindset. And that self delusion is what prevented them from taking the bold steps necessary to get that QB and reshape a mediocre roster into a contender. It all begins with talent, but you need a bunch of other parts working in concert; from coaching to scouting support staff to turn into perennial contenders. Thanks for the history lesson though. 1
Batman1876 Posted September 18, 2018 Author Posted September 18, 2018 8 minutes ago, PetermanThrew5Picks said: Star was paid for a little bit more than the other team that wanted him. pro_football_focus_names_star_lotuleleis_buffalo_bills_deal_among_most_overrated.amp I haven't found a positive review of the signing. But regardless, tired of being in the cap hell Whaley got us in. We could have overpaid for more rotational players. What do you think of his 2 games so far? Is he worth the middle of the road starting DT salary he’s gettin?
Jauronimo Posted September 18, 2018 Posted September 18, 2018 (edited) 17 minutes ago, VW82 said: Nice try. Go back and read the OP. This team had limited options because of our cap situation and our aging core. Bills needed to rebuild in the worst way. Take issue with the execution of that - I surely have - but if you're advocating that we should have tried to keep all those guys, you're not looking the facts that McD was facing when he took over. We were always going to have to trade or walk away from some of our big money, bad culture guys because of the cap situation. I guess I'm confused about why they got rid of the young talent if they needed to replace the aging core. The aging core is still here and actually got older in this most recent free agency. And our cap issues are a product of trading away the young talent, so I'm not sure where you're going with that point. These bad culture guys seem to be doing well elsewhere. I guess Cincinnati, Jax, KC, and LA Rams just have garbage cultures which is why our castoffs have fit in so well. Edited September 18, 2018 by Jauronimo
Bing Bong Posted September 18, 2018 Posted September 18, 2018 7 minutes ago, Batman1876 said: What do you think of his 2 games so far? Is he worth the middle of the road starting DT salary he’s gettin? No! we're getting pummeled on the inside. Don't ask me if anybody's play justifies their contract. None of them except for friggin Marcus Murphy. Triggered.
VW82 Posted September 18, 2018 Posted September 18, 2018 (edited) 23 minutes ago, Jauronimo said: I guess I'm confused about why they got rid of the young talent if they needed to replace the aging core. The aging core is still here and actually got older in this most recent free agency. These bad culture guys seem to be doing well elsewhere. I guess Cincinnati, Jax, KC, and LA Rams just have garbage cultures which is why our castoffs have fit in so well. If you already have the right core of guys / culture in place you can take on talented non-leaders or problem players and generally fit them in without disrupting your locker room (see Patriots with Moss and now Gordon, or any of those good to great teams you listed). We didn't have that situation. We had a team full of talented losers with leaders who for the most part couldn't really get it done on the field anymore. It's way more important to establish your leadership and build out from that or you're not going anywhere in the NFL. The whole point of trading all those guys was to get enough draft capital to find new leadership. It's possible McBeane screws this rebuild up but it needed to happen if we want to become a perennial playoff team IMO. Last year we mostly just got lucky with an unsustainable TOV margin and an easy schedule. Edited September 18, 2018 by VW82
Batman1876 Posted September 18, 2018 Author Posted September 18, 2018 4 minutes ago, PetermanThrew5Picks said: No! we're getting pummeled on the inside. Don't ask me if anybody's play justifies their contract. None of them except for friggin Marcus Murphy. Triggered. I’ve not noticed us geiving up runs up the middle. The Ravens got no run game going and the Chargers ran the edges, not the middle.
Comebackkid Posted September 18, 2018 Posted September 18, 2018 2 hours ago, Peter said: That is absolutely not true. it pretty much is....after he got paid he didnt give a crap. the year we got rid of him he was suspended for four games...then after came back he hurt himself because he was out of shape.....dude was a retard, and a pot head. he basically held the team hostage with his contract and thought he could do whatever he wanted.
BADOLBILZ Posted September 18, 2018 Posted September 18, 2018 5 minutes ago, K-9 said: You gonna tell me that Whaley and Co. didn’t think they were one or two players away only to try applying band aid fixes for those areas (read QB). Those .500 seasons DIRECTLY lent itself to that mindset. And that self delusion is what prevented them from taking the bold steps necessary to get that QB and reshape a mediocre roster into a contender. It all begins with talent, but you need a bunch of other parts working in concert; from coaching to scouting support staff to turn into perennial contenders. Thanks for the history lesson though. You are the history teacher here........ an old man stuck in old man thinking. I'm talking about the facts of the NFL in the 2000's..........the last couple decades......the pertinent part. The objective is to be a perennial playoff team like New England or Pittsburgh or Green Bay or even Baltimore.........or at least to have dominant extended runs with multi-SB appearances like Denver or Seattle. All but the Broncos drafted their SB winning QB.......and NONE in the top 10 of the draft. So they were selected from a draft position of Billsy mediocrity. In fact, the Bills passed on many of them. ? Just like they passed on Mahomes and Watson........who now basically share the distinction of having the best starts of an NFL career by a QB. You don't need to force yourself to lose to go get a QB or whatever "bold steps" you speak of. 1 2
Ol Dirty B Posted September 18, 2018 Posted September 18, 2018 7 hours ago, Ittakestime said: Whaley was fine with the cap. He operated like winning teams do where they play it year by year and restructure when necessary. Beane created this mess and that's just the facts. Dareus to Star did not need to happen. Wood's extension did not need to happen. Tyrod to McCarron did not need to happen. Coleman did not need to happen. Glenn did not need to happen. Ragland did not need to happen. Don't say stuff this The guys doing slapstick math, I mean the educated fans will tell you you're wrong and it could have never worked out. It's in the pass, but the labelling of educated vs uneducated fans is pretty condescending and completely dismissive of another point of view.
Dadonkadonk Posted September 18, 2018 Posted September 18, 2018 The players the OP states were taking up too much cap space are all starting on other teams. Whaley acquired talent. He just never fixed the QB position. TT was adequate enough but not great and not worthy of a contract extension that ate up cap space over a DB like Gilmore or a WR like Woods. Whaley was saddled with two Head Coaches he did not pick. Whaley could have drafted better in the mid to low rounds to have a bit more cheap talent on the roster. At the end of the day the cap situation was created by McBeane. They jettisoned players accelerating their cap hit. If Gilmore, Watkins, and Dareus were still here they would have had enough cap space for them all assuming they still trade TT and they don't sign Star. It's just a fact that McBeane has tanked this season in the hopes that Allen is the franchise QB and Edmunds is the franchise MLB. If they are we won't care how many losses they have this year or the draft picks pissed away. If they missed on Allen, their fate is doomed. They will be gone at the end of 2019 or sooner. At this point I would not trust their FA talent evaluations. No matter how bad they thought they were going to be, their is no excuse for the OL they have put together. Did they really get a good return for Glenn? Why let Henderson walk so he can start elsewhere? Bodine???? Everyone rated him as bottom 5 if not the worst starting C in the league.
Batman1876 Posted September 18, 2018 Author Posted September 18, 2018 7 minutes ago, Ol Dirty B said: Don't say stuff this The guys doing slapstick math, I mean the educated fans will tell you you're wrong and it could have never worked out. It's in the pass, but the labelling of educated vs uneducated fans is pretty condescending and completely dismissive of another point of view. They absolutely could have kept restructuring guys, like they did Wood, that’s one option that could have been taken. This crew thought that such an approach would have a lower ceiling. They felt the talent on the team was not good enough to justify that approach so they took the start over approach. They did a good job of getting value for their guys who they chose to move on from and they did a good job of freeing future cap space. Time will tell if they do a good job with using those resources to build a team. Their drafts look good so far but who knows if the players develop. We also don’t know if they will succeed in free agency when they go in with cap space to do what they want with. We also don’t know how things would have gone if they had gone the other route, 2018 would likely have been better but 2019 and beyond will always be a mystery. Playing one one mystery against another is a fools errand. It’s also foolish to attack a plan when it’s in the preliminary stages. 1
reddogblitz Posted September 18, 2018 Posted September 18, 2018 2 hours ago, K-9 said: Kind of a moot point, though. Nobody ever denied he was a good player who could dominate at times and make it difficult for opposing offenses, but he lost interest in being here, wanted a fresh start, and we obliged. Why would they want to keep a malcontent when they were trying to establish something? Never mind. We beat this dead horse and then some after the deal went down, no sense in rehashing it now. Because he was a good player who could dominate at times and make it difficult for opposing offenses. We're trying to win.
kota Posted September 18, 2018 Posted September 18, 2018 and the Bills will have 90M in CAP space next year to resign, and sign players to the team. Welcome to the NFL. 1
ExiledInIllinois Posted September 18, 2018 Posted September 18, 2018 See what the Bears did with Mack and The Cap... How come we never try stuff like that? Are Big Markets @ that much of an advantage? Or are all markets the same. We always seem to be having issues. 2 minutes ago, kota said: and the Bills will have 90M in CAP space next year to resign, and sign players to the team. Welcome to the NFL. But nobody wants to come to Podunk USA. Sorry to say that. We will end up blowing Our wad on some quitter, traitor, mental case, etc... We really are the League's whipping post. Just eliminate the cap and let the Big Markets shoot themselves in the foot. Right now, I have been saying for 20+ years The League is creating inequity, unbalanced competition, and protecting the Big Markets from themselves. 1
Ol Dirty B Posted September 18, 2018 Posted September 18, 2018 4 hours ago, NoSaint said: Everyone spends to the cap. It’s not just for making a push. There’s a requirement of spending a rolling average of 90-ish percent. We chose to cut bait with 90% of the young core including young guys on rookie deals and second contract guys with big dead money. Now we are old and broke. It was a choice. You might agree or disagree with the strategy but it was not forced on anyone but the fans. No you're just uneducated. You just don't get it. Everyone complained about Ralph being cheap, us not retaining guys. Then we retain guys, spend to the cap, and now it's wreckless spending. But those are the educated fans. It's a !@#$ing joke. I expected this team to be bad, I expected this last year. I think it's more of a surprise to the guys making threads like this rather than people who are asking what are you replacing the talent you are running out of town with? We knew it'd be bad. We been bitching about it since the beginning. I don't trust these guys, you do. They sound like high school coaches to me. Even the OP said something about it starts with talent, well your coach on one of those training camp specials says he doesn't care about talent, he wants hard workers. This roster reflects that extremely naive and misguided approach. 3
Jauronimo Posted September 18, 2018 Posted September 18, 2018 18 minutes ago, Batman1876 said: They absolutely could have kept restructuring guys, like they did Wood, that’s one option that could have been taken. This crew thought that such an approach would have a lower ceiling. They felt the talent on the team was not good enough to justify that approach so they took the start over approach. They did a good job of getting value for their guys who they chose to move on from and they did a good job of freeing future cap space. Time will tell if they do a good job with using those resources to build a team. Their drafts look good so far but who knows if the players develop. We also don’t know if they will succeed in free agency when they go in with cap space to do what they want with. We also don’t know how things would have gone if they had gone the other route, 2018 would likely have been better but 2019 and beyond will always be a mystery. Playing one one mystery against another is a fools errand. It’s also foolish to attack a plan when it’s in the preliminary stages. I completely agree. They chose this situation. There were options. Inherit is very misleading.
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