School Choice?

[whatdrought]

Has the "King" proven that the private sector is better for Schools than the government? 

 

http://time.com/money/5354265/lebron-james-i-promise-school-akron/?utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=social-button-sharing

[TakeYouToTasker]

14 minutes ago, whatdrought said:

Has the "King" proven that the private sector is better for Schools than the government? 

 

http://time.com/money/5354265/lebron-james-i-promise-school-akron/?utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=social-button-sharing

 

Of course private schools are better than government schools.  Have you noticed that nearly every legislator on both sides of the aisle sends their children to private schools?

 

 

 

[IDBillzFan]

You're asking the wrong question because this isn't a private sector vs. public sector thing. He merged his money with the public school system to create a special offering.

 

 

What genuinely needs to happen is schools need to get off the government dole completely. And then the answer would be "Yes, the private sector is better for schools than the government," if for no other reason than because you do away with unions.

 

Let parents take their tax dollars and put them to work in the private school of their choice. Watch what happens. 

 

[3rdnlng]

Look at the record of charter schools over public schools, generally speaking.

[whatdrought]

6 minutes ago, LABillzFan said:

You're asking the wrong question because this isn't a private sector vs. public sector thing. He merged his money with the public school system to create a special offering.

 

 

What genuinely needs to happen is schools need to get off the government dole completely. And then the answer would be "Yes, the private sector is better for schools than the government," if for no other reason than because you do away with unions.

 

Let parents take their tax dollars and put them to work in the private school of their choice. Watch what happens. 

 

 

While true that it is not a direct comparison between private v. public, it does speak to the fact that the private sector will (almost exclusively) have a better end result than the public. 

[row_33]

9 minutes ago, whatdrought said:

 

While true that it is not a direct comparison between private v. public, it does speak to the fact that the private sector will (almost exclusively) have a better end result than the public. 

 

nature vs nurture argument?

 

being born to rich parents helps one immensely in life

 

[whatdrought]

Just now, row_33 said:

 

nature vs nurture argument?

 

being born to rich parents helps one immensely in life

 

 

I'm confused by the first part of your response? 

 

Well, that's irrefutable, but it shouldn't be the only answer to the problem. 

 

LA hit it right on the head: 

 

12 minutes ago, LABillzFan said:

 

Let parents take their tax dollars and put them to work in the private school of their choice. Watch what happens. 

 

 

 

 

Also, to clear it up, I am 100% for school choice. 

 

I posted this article cause I found it funny that those who might be opposed to school choice would worship Lebrons actions without realizing that this proves the need for choice. 

[row_33]

society doesn't let you have free choices to your heart's content

 

you don't get do-overs unless you have a lot of money to cover up your screw-ups

 

the education game is rigged heavily, your district, your chances of admission, your opportunities are pretty well set the day you are born

 

people in the know have spent generations rigging it against everybody who isn't in the know...

 

good luck y'all...

 

Edited August 2, 2018 by row_33

[Buffalo_Gal]

My father taught in the Buffalo public school system. He sent his kids to Catholic elementary schools.

My niece is now a BPS teacher. Should be interesting what she does with her kids.

I am all for parents having a say in their school of choice.  Sometimes money helps. Sometimes, it does not. Segregation - by special needs, gifted and talented, etc. really does help too, but it is not PC to say or do. There is a reason so many parents homeschool.
 

[IDBillzFan]

5 minutes ago, Buffalo_Gal said:

 There is a reason so many parents homeschool.

 

We're one of those families. It has been an amazing journey, although CA does what it can to deter people from going down that road.

[row_33]

10 minutes ago, LABillzFan said:

 

We're one of those families. It has been an amazing journey, although CA does what it can to deter people from going down that road.

 

are the vast majority of homeschooling situations performed by people with active religious lives?

 

they are around here.... no matter what your faith....

 

[IDBillzFan]

Just now, row_33 said:

 

are the vast majority of homeschooling situations performed by people with active religious lives?

 

they are around here.... no matter what your faith....

 

 

To my eyes faith has little to do with whether someone home schools. Most of the home school parents we meet simply see a more targeted education for their child as having greater value than keeping their children in a classroom built to operate at one very slow speed.

[row_33]

9 minutes ago, LABillzFan said:

 

To my eyes faith has little to do with whether someone home schools. Most of the home school parents we meet simply see a more targeted education for their child as having greater value than keeping their children in a classroom built to operate at one very slow speed.

 

thanks.  I have not met a family that homeschooled that wasn't religious in Southern Ontario.  out of dozens of families.

 

 

[KD in CA]

2 hours ago, row_33 said:

 

nature vs nurture argument?

 

being born to rich parents helps one immensely in life

 

 

Sure, but very few people are born to parents rich enough to provide for them beyond childhood.  The real value is not the wealth of the parents, it's whether the parents were raised correctly and cared enough to exert the effort into raising their children correctly.  You don't have to be rich to read bedtime stories to your kid every night from birth until they are six and can do it themselves.  You don't have to be rich to teach them not to be spoiled, boorish, entitled brats but rather frugal, respectful, thoughtful and hard working people. 

 

The reason why private schools and certain public schools do well is because 1) parental involvement in the school and 2) children who were raised to act appropriately in school.  Money is a distant third. There are countless examples of terrible schools that have double the per-pupil budget as more successful schools and it has everything to do with the parents and how they raised the kids.

[IDBillzFan]

14 minutes ago, KD in CA said:

The reason why private schools and certain public schools do well is because 1) parental involvement in the school and 2) children who were raised to act appropriately in school.

 

For many parents, school is a babysitter. They're not involved in the school, or even in their child's assignments and responsibilities.

 

It was crazy for me to see kids show up empty-handed on a day a science project was due. The parents response would be "What project? It was due WHEN?"

 

 

[keepthefaith]

1 hour ago, KD in CA said:

 

Sure, but very few people are born to parents rich enough to provide for them beyond childhood.  The real value is not the wealth of the parents, it's whether the parents were raised correctly and cared enough to exert the effort into raising their children correctly.  You don't have to be rich to read bedtime stories to your kid every night from birth until they are six and can do it themselves.  You don't have to be rich to teach them not to be spoiled, boorish, entitled brats but rather frugal, respectful, thoughtful and hard working people. 

 

The reason why private schools and certain public schools do well is because 1) parental involvement in the school and 2) children who were raised to act appropriately in school.  Money is a distant third. There are countless examples of terrible schools that have double the per-pupil budget as more successful schools and it has everything to do with the parents and how they raised the kids.

 

Yes, parents, families and the character of people matter A LOT.  We're fortunate here in a Chicago west suburb to have what I believe are great public schools both in the student body and teachers/administrators as well.  The experiences and teaching quality for my 3 kids that went through the district here were top notch IMO.  Add coaches to that as 2 of the 3 played a couple of sports each and were very lucky to have the coaches they had who not only got the most out of them athletically but also taught them great character.  I really feel blessed in this regard.  We have a couple great private schools in the area and frankly I think the public schools are every bit as good or better.

 

We have a couple teachers in the neighborhood who teach in low income areas and what they describe in those schools is amazingly different than what their own kids went through in our local school system.   They tell us that the greatest differences they see between the districts are goals and expectations.  That being among the parents, the students and unfortunately the school administration which where they teach have adopted very lax rules regarding grading and discipline.  Much different than in our district where the ship is run tight. 

 

 

Edited August 2, 2018 by keepthefaith

[LaDexter]

Katrina Vanden Heuvel once called America's public education a "treasure."

 

Indeed, for the Democrats, it is TREASURE, because money that should be going to educate kids always ends up in Dem campaign coffers.

 

Public education is a monopoly, and it acts like one.  It has a perverted motive - the more uneducated you are, the more likely you will want government "help" and hence VOTE DEM.... which is what really matters to "public" education - manufacturing DEM VOTERS....

[KD in CA]

15 minutes ago, keepthefaith said:

Yes, parents, families and the character of people matter A LOT.  We're fortunate here in a Chicago west suburb to have what I believe are great public schools both in the student body and teachers/administrators as well.  The experiences and teaching quality for my 3 kids that went through the district here were top notch IMO.  Add coaches to that as 2 of the 3 played a couple of sports each and were very lucky to have the coaches they had who not only got the most out of them athletically but also taught them great character.  I really feel blessed in this regard.  We have a couple great private schools in the area and frankly I think the public schools are every bit as good or better.

 

We have a couple teachers in the neighborhood who teach in low income areas and what they describe in those schools is amazingly different than what their own kids went through in our home school system.   They tell us that the greatest differences they see between the districts are goals and expectations.  That being among the parents, the students and unfortunately the school administration which where the teach have adopted very lax rules regarding grading and discipline.  Much different than in our home district where the ship is run tight. 

 

Same here in our town in CA;  the school, staff and kids are great.  But the cost is paying an amount for a house that would make most people's heads explode.  And then pony up an extra few grand for the art/music stuff because CA steals that money to pay off the union bosses.

 

As for the low-income areas, I have several teachers in my immediate family; my B-I-L was proud to work in a half middle class, half 'hood school a few years ago.  He put up with the future criminals and drug addicts doing zero work and being held to zero standards.  But once one of the hood rats started threatening him and the administration refused to do anything (I guess that would have been raysis), he said !@#$ it and got a job in a rich town. The occasional hassle from some spoiled brat is a minor inconvenience by comparison.

[Boatdrinks]

7 hours ago, KD in CA said:

 

Sure, but very few people are born to parents rich enough to provide for them beyond childhood.  The real value is not the wealth of the parents, it's whether the parents were raised correctly and cared enough to exert the effort into raising their children correctly.  You don't have to be rich to read bedtime stories to your kid every night from birth until they are six and can do it themselves.  You don't have to be rich to teach them not to be spoiled, boorish, entitled brats but rather frugal, respectful, thoughtful and hard working people. 

 

The reason why private schools and certain public schools do well is because 1) parental involvement in the school and 2) children who were raised to act appropriately in school.  Money is a distant third. There are countless examples of terrible schools that have double the per-pupil budget as more successful schools and it has everything to do with the parents and how they raised the kids.

This has been supported by research done as far back as the 50’s. However, it’s precisely why “ school choice” will never work in America. The goal of most ( good ) parents isn’t just to have their child attend a “ good school” . It’s also to keep their child away from “ bad kids” . So the current system works well for those who can afford to live in a district where other good parents also reside. We know that if you took the students from a bad , failing inner city school and swapped them with those in a wealthy suburban “ good school” that the past results would largely follow them. The problem with bad schools isn’t really the teachers , or the unions ( they exist in good performing districts too), it’s really largely the students . This, however is not the PC answer, though years of research consistently conclude that the quality of the students family is the greatest predictor of educational success and achievement. 

[Doc Brown]

8 hours ago, KD in CA said:

 

Sure, but very few people are born to parents rich enough to provide for them beyond childhood.  The real value is not the wealth of the parents, it's whether the parents were raised correctly and cared enough to exert the effort into raising their children correctly.  You don't have to be rich to read bedtime stories to your kid every night from birth until they are six and can do it themselves.  You don't have to be rich to teach them not to be spoiled, boorish, entitled brats but rather frugal, respectful, thoughtful and hard working people. 

 

The reason why private schools and certain public schools do well is because 1) parental involvement in the school and 2) children who were raised to act appropriately in school.  Money is a distant third. There are countless examples of terrible schools that have double the per-pupil budget as more successful schools and it has everything to do with the parents and how they raised the kids.

Yup.  Parental involvement is by far the most predictive factor of student success.  A parent who puts a high value on education will usually choose the best school for their child to succeed that's within their budget (moving to a more affluent district that has better public schools, sending them to a charter school, paying for a private school, or even homeschooling).    

[boyst]

16 hours ago, Buffalo_Gal said:

My father taught in the Buffalo public school system. He sent his kids to Catholic elementary schools.

My niece is now a BPS teacher. Should be interesting what she does with her kids.

I am all for parents having a say in their school of choice.  Sometimes money helps. Sometimes, it does not. Segregation - by special needs, gifted and talented, etc. really does help too, but it is not PC to say or do. There is a reason so many parents homeschool.
 

Is that brockport?  My aunt retired from there as a special needs teacher.

 

Go over to the north side, the fire department Protectives was founded by my great grandpa and he has a statue to him.  Some drunk hit it, but I think it's back up finally.  Monroe country fire departments still gives out an award in his name

[Buffalo_Gal]

1 minute ago, Boyst62 said:

Is that brockport?  My aunt retired from there as a special needs teacher.

 

Go over to the north side, the fire department Protectives was founded by my great grandpa and he has a statue to him.  Some drunk hit it, but I think it's back up finally.  Monroe country fire departments still gives out an award in his name

BPS = Buffalo Public Schools

[Keukasmallies]

As a former teacher, assistant high school principal, high school principal, ass't superintendent, and finally public school district superintendent, I support school choice and home schooling 100%.  There is no one way to educate young people; for many families public school is the way to go, for others, not so much.

[3rdnlng]

12 minutes ago, Keukasmallies said:

As a former teacher, assistant high school principal, high school principal, ass't superintendent, and finally public school district superintendent, I support school choice and home schooling 100%.  There is no one way to educate young people; for many families public school is the way to go, for others, not so much.

Right on!  From my experience that's a rare attitude for a faculty or administration person in the public school system. I see one hell of a lot of these people just protecting their turf and fighting school choice.

[DC Tom]

1 hour ago, Keukasmallies said:

As a former teacher, assistant high school principal, high school principal, ass't superintendent, and finally public school district superintendent, I support school choice and home schooling 100%.  There is no one way to educate young people; for many families public school is the way to go, for others, not so much.

 

You were never in either of the unions, were you?

[row_33]

14 minutes ago, DC Tom said:

 

You were never in either of the unions, were you?

 

they are Federations in Canada, not unions... everyone working in the family was a teacher except for 3 of us....they monopolized every get-together for 50 years complaining and whining the whole time.

 

 

[Keukasmallies]

23 hours ago, DC Tom said:

 

You were never in either of the unions, were you?

 

Actually I helped write the very first teachers' union contract for the Corning school district in 1965.  We were excited because we were laboring under the impression (later proven false) that a union would be good for us.  We quickly found out the union was good for the union, not necessarily its members.  As the years passed, I was a member of an administrators union, but it was mainly an in-house group with little influence from the NYS-level officials.  As a Superintendent I had good relationships with the teachers and administrators unions, but marveled at the teachers union's ability to change stances between private and public agreements.  For example, If I was recommending to the school board that they deny tenure to a probationary teacher, the union might agree with me in private that the teacher wasn't worthy of tenure, but then explain to me that publically they had a duty to support the teacher and oppose my recommendation to the school board by rallying parents, teachers, etc. 

 

Many teachers will silently cheer the recent SCOTUS decision regarding non-member payments to teacher unions to support "negotiations activities."

 

And so it goes....

[boyst]

1 hour ago, Keukasmallies said:

 

Actually I helped write the very first teachers' union contract for the Corning school district in 1965.  We were excited because we were laboring under the impression (later proven false) that a union would be good for us.  We quickly found out the union was good for the union, not necessarily its members.  As the years passed, I was a member of an administrators union, but it was mainly an in-house group with little influence from the NYS-level officials.  As a Superintendent I had good relationships with the teachers and administrators unions, but marveled at the teachers union's ability to change stances between private and public agreements.  For example, If I was recommending to the school board that they deny tenure to a probationary teacher, the union might agree with me in private that the teacher wasn't worthy of tenure, but then explain to me that publically they had a duty to support the teacher and oppose my recommendation to the school board by rallying parents, teachers, etc. 

 

Many teachers will silently cheer the recent SCOTUS decision regarding non-member payments to teacher unions to support "negotiations activities."

 

And so it goes....

Thank you for your service 

[The_Dude]

My moms a teacher at a private school. A very EXPENSIVE private school. How expensive? Well, she taught Kenny Rogers twin boys, and lots of Falcons players kids attend. To me, the weird thing is my mom took a pay cut to go work at the private school. Weird. I thought they’d get paid more....anyways, she did it because she could just not work for government operated schools anymore. 

[DC Tom]

3 hours ago, Keukasmallies said:

 

Actually I helped write the very first teachers' union contract for the Corning school district in 1965.  We were excited because we were laboring under the impression (later proven false) that a union would be good for us.  We quickly found out the union was good for the union, not necessarily its members.  As the years passed, I was a member of an administrators union, but it was mainly an in-house group with little influence from the NYS-level officials.  As a Superintendent I had good relationships with the teachers and administrators unions, but marveled at the teachers union's ability to change stances between private and public agreements.  For example, If I was recommending to the school board that they deny tenure to a probationary teacher, the union might agree with me in private that the teacher wasn't worthy of tenure, but then explain to me that publically they had a duty to support the teacher and oppose my recommendation to the school board by rallying parents, teachers, etc. 

 

Many teachers will silently cheer the recent SCOTUS decision regarding non-member payments to teacher unions to support "negotiations activities."

 

And so it goes....

 

Was that a NYSUT affiliate back then?  

 

I used to work at the AFT national HQ downtown.  A bigger bunch of useless lumps of protoplasm I have never seen.  I remember how dead-set against anything that would even imply their vision of public schooling being for the teachers' benefit was anathema - I never heard anything about home-schooling, but I can't imagine they'd support that much choice, particularly under Weingarten now.  They're not why I'm anti-union...but them and the NEA are the examples I use of "unions that suck."

[Keukasmallies]

15 hours ago, DC Tom said:

 

Was that a NYSUT affiliate back then?  

 

I used to work at the AFT national HQ downtown.  A bigger bunch of useless lumps of protoplasm I have never seen.  I remember how dead-set against anything that would even imply their vision of public schooling being for the teachers' benefit was anathema - I never heard anything about home-schooling, but I can't imagine they'd support that much choice, particularly under Weingarten now.  They're not why I'm anti-union...but them and the NEA are the examples I use of "unions that suck."

 

Yes, I taught in two upstate NY public school districts and each local was a NYSUT affiliate.  Once I moved out of the classroom, the two administrator locals were affiliated with SAANYS.  The latter was much more education attuned than the former.  After the Ass't Sup't level there's no union as the Superintendent is hired by, and serves at the pleasure of the school board as it should be.  AFT was too "radical" for small upstate districts.  

 

I'm not anti-union in terms of philosophical grounding because I can see the promise held out by the original concept of unionization; I am anti-union to the extent that I understand what unions have become and the political power they wield.

Edited August 5, 2018 by Keukasmallies

[KD in CA]

On 8/4/2018 at 5:57 PM, Keukasmallies said:

 

Yes, I taught in two upstate NY public school districts and each local was a NYSUT affiliate.  Once I moved out of the classroom, the two administrator locals were affiliated with SAANYS.  The latter was much more education attuned than the former.  After the Ass't Sup't level there's no union as the Superintendent is hired by, and serves at the pleasure of the school board as it should be.  AFT was too "radical" for small upstate districts.  

 

I'm not anti-union in terms of philosophical grounding because I can see the promise held out by the original concept of unionization; I am anti-union to the extent that I understand what unions have become and the political power they wield.

 

The promise held out by the original concept of unionization has been codified into federal and state law and there are federal and state agencies who proactivity seek out violators of those laws.

[Keukasmallies]

10 hours ago, KD in CA said:

 

The promise held out by the original concept of unionization has been codified into federal and state law and there are federal and state agencies who proactivity seek out violators of those laws.

 

'zackly right .

[B-Man]

More? How is that even possible?

 

American Federation of Teachers President: ´We´re Becoming More Political´ by Brianna Heldt

Original Article       .

[row_33]

12 hours ago, Keukasmallies said:

 

'zackly right .

 

a few times i showed up to vote for Union leadership at the stated time of 4pm and they delayed and waited until 1am when enough people had left to ensure the crooked side won

 

that's how you win a vote

 

like those "last person touching the car wins it" contests

 

 

[DC Tom]

49 minutes ago, B-Man said:

More? How is that even possible?

 

American Federation of Teachers President: ´We´re Becoming More Political´ by Brianna Heldt

Original Article       .

 

Out of every $5 they collect, $4 - 80% - already goes to lobbying.  What, are they not going to provide any services to membership?  They're sure as hell not cutting the budget for the Al Shanker Memorial Wine Cellar.

 

AFT is the absolute shittiest !@#$ing union in the country.  Their national HQ is right across the street from me, if anyone wants to join me throwing rotten fruit at Randi Weingarten some day.  Randi always loved a good demonstration, she shouldn't mind.

[B-Man]

PROPAGANDA IN SUBURBAN BOSTON HIGH SCHOOL: Emails Reveal High School Teachers Plotting to Hide Their Political Bias From Parents. 

 

One teacher wrote, “Personally, I’m finding it really difficult in the current climate to teach kids to appreciate other perspectives. . . I don’t feel good about protecting [a nativist] student’s right to a so‐called ‘political’ view.”

 

 

 

We know better than you - The Left.

 

 

.

35Posted at 4:58