Darnold and Allen , offsets and no offsets

[lookylookyherecomescookie]

Just a question to those who know more about this than me.  Darnold is holding out because he  reportedly wants no offset language in his contract. Allen signed already, he accepted offset language in his contract. Obviously teams want offset provision, players (or agents) don't. Both Allen and Darnold have the same agent, Jimmy Sexton.  Is this a case of  the agent treating the two teams differently, or just Darnold being really stubborn?

[YoloinOhio]

Allen said he told his camp that he didn’t want to miss any practice so do what you have to do. Mayfield said the same.

[aristocrat]

If he thinks he’s gonna be great he’s too worried about small money when the next contract is gonna be huge money. 

[MAJBobby]

4 minutes ago, lookylookyherecomescookie said:

Just a question to those who know more about this than me.  Darnold is holding out because he  reportedly wants no offset language in his contract. Allen signed already, he accepted offset language in his contract. Obviously teams want offset provision, players (or agents) don't. Both Allen and Darnold have the same agent, Jimmy Sexton.  Is this a case of  the agent treating the two teams differently, or just Darnold being really stubborn?

 

On the player. Both Allen and Mayfield told their agents they dont want to miss practice over this offset stuff. Darnold not so much willing to hold out over it. 

[aristocrat]

Dahnold is gonna bust so he’s gonna want to double dip after he’s released 

[YoloinOhio]

Just now, MAJBobby said:

 

On the player. Both Allen and Mayfield told their agents they dont want to miss practice over this offset stuff. Darnold not so much willing to hold out over it. 

I wonder if it’s because Darnold knows he’s redshirting regardless behind Mccown? Mayfield is supposed redshirt too but it’s not his style to concede that esp to a guy like Tyrod. Bills were clear josh had a chance to win the job so he probably wanted to get in as soon as he could. Darnold seems to lack “fire” to me when I watch him play, jmo

[MAJBobby]

5 minutes ago, YoloinOhio said:

I wonder if it’s because Darnold knows he’s redshirting regardless behind Mccown? Mayfield is supposed redshirt too but it’s not his style to concede that esp to a guy like Tyrod. Bills were clear josh had a chance to win the job so he probably wanted to get in as soon as he could. Darnold seems to lack “fire” to me when I watch him play, jmo

 

Think it more has to to with past USC QB sucess (or lack there of). Also add into what Jets gave up to get him (think they have leverage). And add the inability of the hets to develop a QB. 

 

Either way Darnold only hurting himself over language thay is never going to actually be used. No team is gonna cut a QB taken in the top 5 before year 4. 

 

Jet fans blamin Sexton. However the Agent works for the player. Not the other way around. 

Edited July 28, 2018 by MAJBobby

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

16 minutes ago, YoloinOhio said:

Allen said he told his camp that he didn’t want to miss any practice so do what you have to do. Mayfield said the same.

 

...guess I missed the memo.....his contract is 100% guaranteed.....if cut, offset lessens what Bflo has to pay if he signs somewhere....he STILL gets paid, so what am I missing??...

 

Offset language relates to what happens to a player’s salary if he’s cut during the first four years of his career, while he’s still playing on his rookie contract. For the top 15 to 20 picks in the draft, those four-year salaries will be fully guaranteed, even if a player is waived at some point during those four seasons. For example, if a player has $4MM in guaranteed money remaining on his contract and is cut, he’ll still be owed that $4MM.

 

However, if a team has written offset language into the contract, that club can save some money if and when the player signs with a new team. For example, if that player who had $4MM in guaranteed money left on his contract signs with a new club on a $1MM deal, his old team would only be on the hook for $3MM, with the new team making up the difference. If there’s no offset language on that first deal, the old team would continue to be on the hook for the full $4MM, and the player would simply earn an additional $1MM from his new club.

 

Although the negotiation of offset language might potentially delay a rookie’s signing, the offsets rarely come into play, since few top picks flame out badly enough that they’re released during their first four seasons. And even in those rare instances, if a player has performed poorly enough to be cut in his first few years, he likely won’t sign a lucrative deal elsewhere, so offset language wouldn’t help his old club recover more than perhaps the league minimum.

[Big Turk]

I think holding out for offsets when you are the 3rd overall pick is a little ridiculous...the chances of them cutting you before the end of your rookie contract as a QB especially are almost none.

[Cripple Creek]

14 minutes ago, YoloinOhio said:

I wonder if it’s because Darnold knows he’s redshirting regardless behind Mccown? Mayfield is supposed redshirt too but it’s not his style to concede that esp to a guy like Tyrod. Bills were clear josh had a chance to win the job so he probably wanted to get in as soon as he could. Darnold seems to lack “fire” to me when I watch him play, jmo

Makes plenty of sense.  Why a player, any player, would care about offset language is beyond me.  Maybe someone out there can explain.  The only thing I  can fathom is they want to hamstring their original team if they are cut.

[MAJBobby]

5 minutes ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said:

 

...guess I missed the memo.....his contract is 100% guaranteed.....if cut, offset lessens what Bflo has to pay if he signs somewhere....he STILL gets paid, so what am I missing??...

 

Offset language relates to what happens to a player’s salary if he’s cut during the first four years of his career, while he’s still playing on his rookie contract. For the top 15 to 20 picks in the draft, those four-year salaries will be fully guaranteed, even if a player is waived at some point during those four seasons. For example, if a player has $4MM in guaranteed money remaining on his contract and is cut, he’ll still be owed that $4MM.

 

However, if a team has written offset language into the contract, that club can save some money if and when the player signs with a new team. For example, if that player who had $4MM in guaranteed money left on his contract signs with a new club on a $1MM deal, his old team would only be on the hook for $3MM, with the new team making up the difference. If there’s no offset language on that first deal, the old team would continue to be on the hook for the full $4MM, and the player would simply earn an additional $1MM from his new club.

 

Although the negotiation of offset language might potentially delay a rookie’s signing, the offsets rarely come into play, since few top picks flame out badly enough that they’re released during their first four seasons. And even in those rare instances, if a player has performed poorly enough to be cut in his first few years, he likely won’t sign a lucrative deal elsewhere, so offset language wouldn’t help his old club recover more than perhaps the league minimum.

 

Offset language hurts the player ability to double dip. 

 

Using your example No offset and the player has 4M in guarantees when cut he gets that 4M Plus any other Guarantees in knew contract say another 2M. 

 

Offset language means That 4M in original Guarantees is offset by 2M. Meaning player gets only 4M. 

1 minute ago, Cripple Creek said:

Makes plenty of sense.  Why a player, any player, would care about offset language is beyond me.  Maybe someone out there can explain.  The only thing I  can fathom is they want to hamstring their original team if they are cut.

 It hurts ability to Double Dip 

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

19 minutes ago, MAJBobby said:

 

Offset language hurts the player ability to double dip. 

 

Using your example No offset and the player has 4M in guarantees when cut he gets that 4M Plus any other Guarantees in knew contract say another 2M. 

 

Offset language means That 4M in original Guarantees is offset by 2M. Meaning player gets only 4M. 

 It hurts ability to Double Dip 

 

...thanks for the explanation......pretty petty.......with the top 10 or so picks getting 100% guaranteed money, if they're THAT worried about getting cut early on and not being able to "double dip" they must really suck...AND..."double dipping" would be GRAND LARCENY for suckitude IMO......R U scared Sam??..........

Edited July 28, 2018 by OldTimeAFLGuy

[B Fan in LA]

 

Must we dwell on this ??

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

Just now, B Fan in LA said:

 

Must we dwell on this ??

 

...thread participation IS voluntary....................

[Shaw66]

Wow.  I didn't know anything about this issue.   

 

The fact that Darnold actually cares about this says something about the guy.   That fact alone reflects a character issue that would put off McBeane.   They want guys who have complete confidence in themselves and who are willing to bet their futures on themselves.   That' one thing that I like about Tyrod.   He's all about "just give me a chance to play.  If you don't want to play me, I'll move on."   Tyrod left Baltimore to get to the place where he had the best opportunity to play, he renegotiated his contract twice to be sure he continued to have the best opportunity to play, and he embraced being traded because it gave him the best opportunity to play.   He makes good money compared to you and me, and he simply doesn't let the fact that he might get a better deal get in the way of playing football.  

 

Holding up his signing over this issue says that Darnold doesn't have complete confidence in himself, that he wants some protection on the downside if things don't go well.  And it says he cares about how much money he's going to get.   From a strictly personal, economic point of view, that makes perfectly a good sense.   From the team's perspective, it says Darnold has his eye on the wrong ball.   Football isn't number 1.  

 

It's why the Bills probably aren't interested in Dez Bryant, and probably aren't interested in Mack.  If you're not 100% about team football, they aren't interested.   And if you're holding out, or if you're a distraction in some other way, you aren't 100% about team football.   McBeane have been very clear - they want guys whose fundamental personality traits indicate that they're committed to the process.   That's one of the things they liked about Allen.   He's that kind of guy.   And that's why he's signed and Darnold isn't.   To the extent they think about it at all, Darnold not signing is something that reinforces their belief that they got the right guy.  

[Paulus]

31 minutes ago, matter2003 said:

I think holding out for offsets when you are the 3rd overall pick is a little ridiculous...the chances of them cutting you before the end of your rookie contract as a QB especially are almost none.

So, what is the big hold up for the Jets, then? 

 

I see so many post saying it is pointless for Darnold to hold out, and nothing about how pointless it is for the Jets to be holding out... The sword cuts both ways, dudes.

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

6 minutes ago, Paulus said:

So, what is the big hold up for the Jets, then? 

 

I see so many post saying it is pointless for Darnold to hold out, and nothing about how pointless it is for the Jets to be holding out... The sword cuts both ways, dudes.

 

...Jesus, if the SOLE purpose of holding out is to preserve his ability to "double dip", guy must fear being the NEXT "USC-Sanchez-Jesters" flop.......USC has churned out some beauties.....

[MAJBobby]

6 minutes ago, Paulus said:

So, what is the big hold up for the Jets, then? 

 

I see so many post saying it is pointless for Darnold to hold out, and nothing about how pointless it is for the Jets to be holding out... The sword cuts both ways, dudes.

 

Called Precident. Jets have a long standing policy of including offsets in all Rookie Deals. Not to mention No QB in this draft avoided offset language. So to pull the language sets a very dangerous precedent for Jets in future drafts. 

 

They have two QBs to go forward with right now. Only one being hurt is Darnold missing time

over language that will never be used or affect him. 

 

However the Precendent will affect the Jets for years to come. 

[Shaw66]

6 minutes ago, Paulus said:

So, what is the big hold up for the Jets, then? 

 

I see so many post saying it is pointless for Darnold to hold out, and nothing about how pointless it is for the Jets to be holding out... The sword cuts both ways, dudes.

Culture.

 

The Jets are saying "this is the way we do things."  Darnold is saying "I don't want to do it your way.  I want to do it my way."

 

That's what I was saying about McBeane.   They're immediately turned off when the player's behavior says "I don't want to do it your way."   Just like Belichick is turned off.   McBeane's view, and Belichick's, and apparently the Jets', is that the players must do it their way on things that are of fundamental importance.   

 

The difference between the cultures is, I'm guessing, that the Bills knew what they were getting with Allen and the Jets, apparently, didn't know what they were getting with Darnold.  McBeane don't want a guy who puts himself ahead of the team.  

[lookylookyherecomescookie]

3 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

Wow.  I didn't know anything about this issue.   

 

The fact that Darnold actually cares about this says something about the guy.   That fact alone reflects a character issue that would put off McBeane.   They want guys who have complete confidence in themselves and who are willing to bet their futures on themselves.   That' one thing that I like about Tyrod.   He's all about "just give me a chance to play.  If you don't want to play me, I'll move on."   Tyrod left Baltimore to get to the place where he had the best opportunity to play, he renegotiated his contract twice to be sure he continued to have the best opportunity to play, and he embraced being traded because it gave him the best opportunity to play.   He makes good money compared to you and me, and he simply doesn't let the fact that he might get a better deal get in the way of playing football.  

 

Holding up his signing over this issue says that Darnold doesn't have complete confidence in himself, that he wants some protection on the downside if things don't go well.  And it says he cares about how much money he's going to get.   From a strictly personal, economic point of view, that makes perfectly a good sense.   From the team's perspective, it says Darnold has his eye on the wrong ball.   Football isn't number 1.  

 

It's why the Bills probably aren't interested in Dez Bryant, and probably aren't interested in Mack.  If you're not 100% about team football, they aren't interested.   And if you're holding out, or if you're a distraction in some other way, you aren't 100% about team football.   McBeane have been very clear - they want guys whose fundamental personality traits indicate that they're committed to the process.   That's one of the things they liked about Allen.   He's that kind of guy.   And that's why he's signed and Darnold isn't.   To the extent they think about it at all, Darnold not signing is something that reinforces their belief that they got the right guy.  

While I agree with your thoughts on Allen's personality traits, and his willingness to sign with offsets, it should be noted that he waited until  after Mayfield also signed with offsets before he signed. Perhaps he wanted to see what mayfield did, perhaps mayfield's signing gave cover to Jimmy Sexton. In any event-good for Bills, bad for Jets. While I hate the expression, that's a win-win

[Roundybout]

I think that this whole offset thing is moot, because even the Jets won't cut a third overall pick on a rookie deal.

[Big Turk]

13 minutes ago, Paulus said:

So, what is the big hold up for the Jets, then? 

 

I see so many post saying it is pointless for Darnold to hold out, and nothing about how pointless it is for the Jets to be holding out... The sword cuts both ways, dudes.

 

Because they dont want to start a trend for the other 31 teams like the Chargers did last year...give the NFLPA/Agents an inch and they want to try to take a mile...pretty soon it starts going from top 3 to top 5 to top 10 to top 15 to all first round picks...

 

Edited July 28, 2018 by matter2003

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

3 minutes ago, MAJBobby said:

 

Called Precident. Jets have a long standing policy of including offsets in all Rookie Deals. Not to mention No QB in this draft avoided offset language. So to pull the language sets a very dangerous precedent for Jets in future drafts. 

 

They have two QBs to go forward with right now. Only one being hurt is Darnold missing time

over language that will never be used or affect him. 

 

However the Precendent will affect the Jets for years to come. 

 

 

...why change now?...is he here to play ball with $30+ mil GUARANTEED or is he Sam the Sham?......seriously?.....20 year old has leverage?.....

[Shaw66]

1 minute ago, lookylookyherecomescookie said:

While I agree with your thoughts on Allen's personality traits, and his willingness to sign with offsets, it should be noted that he waited until  after Mayfield also signed with offsets before he signed. Perhaps he wanted to see what mayfield did, perhaps mayfield's signing gave cover to Jimmy Sexton. In any event-good for Bills, bad for Jets. While I hate the expression, that's a win-win

It's telling that they both have same agent.   That means the agent gave his advice, then the player made his decision.   Maybe what Mayfield got affected Allen's choice.   I prefer to think that Allen just sees it differently.   NOTHING is more important to him than (1) his family and (2) his team, or at least that's the way McBeane want him to see it.   Offsets or no offsets, his family will be well cared for with the contract he's signing.   So the only thing he should care about is his team.  The fact that Darnold cares about the offsets is a red flag.  A minor red flag, to be sure, for most teams.   A bigger red flag for McBeane. 

[MJS]

To be honest, I'm not sure why offset language is even allowed. Seems completely backwards to me. If you give a guy gaurenteed money, why should it matter what he signs with another team? He should get ALL the gaurenteed money he was promised by the team.

3 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

It's telling that they both have same agent.   That means the agent gave his advice, then the player made his decision.   Maybe what Mayfield got affected Allen's choice.   I prefer to think that Allen just sees it differently.   NOTHING is more important to him than (1) his family and (2) his team, or at least that's the way McBeane want him to see it.   Offsets or no offsets, his family will be well cared for with the contract he's signing.   So the only thing he should care about is his team.  The fact that Darnold cares about the offsets is a red flag.  A minor red flag, to be sure, for most teams.   A bigger red flag for McBeane. 

 

They don't actually have the same agent. Their agents work for the same company, though. Allen mentioned that on One Bills Live yesterday.

[Paulus]

9 minutes ago, MAJBobby said:

 

Called Precident. Jets have a long standing policy of including offsets in all Rookie Deals. Not to mention No QB in this draft avoided offset language. So to pull the language sets a very dangerous precedent for Jets in future drafts. 

 

They have two QBs to go forward with right now. Only one being hurt is Darnold missing time

over language that will never be used or affect him. 

 

However the Precendent will affect the Jets for years to come. 

You guys actually believe the crap you peddle...

[Shaw66]

2 minutes ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said:

 

 

...why change now?...is he here to play ball with $30+ mil GUARANTEED or is he Sam the Sham?......seriously?.....20 year old has leverage?.....

Correct.   

 

He obviously isn't thinking about football.   And that's a bad thing. 

 

Look at Shady.   He has his press conference, and over and over the press asks him about his personal issue.  He said, over and over,  "I'm only talking about football."   Why?  Because he knows he has to be 100% about football right now, and he has to manage his personal distractions the best he can without letting it interfere with football.  Talking about his problem with the press distracts him from football and doesn't solve his problem, so he consciously decided not to talk to the press.   

 

McBeane want their players to be all about football.   They support, I'm sure, exactly what Shady is doing with the press.   They would be VERY disappointed if Allen were doing what Darnold is doing.  

3 minutes ago, MJS said:

To be honest, I'm not sure why offset language is even allowed. Seems completely backwards to me. If you give a guy gaurenteed money, why should it matter what he signs with another team? He should get ALL the gaurenteed money he was promised by the team.

 

They don't actually have the same agent. Their agents work for the same company, though. Allen mentioned that on One Bills Live yesterday.

Thanks.  So they might actually be getting different advice.  So maybe it isn't Darnold; maybe he's just getting bad advice from his agent and following it.  

[MAJBobby]

Just now, Paulus said:

You guys actually believe the crap you peddle...

 

If the Jets roll back their long standing offset policy now. You DONT think every player is going to demand no offsets. Never have been in to many negotiations have you. 

[Paulus]

10 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

Culture.

 

The Jets are saying "this is the way we do things."  Darnold is saying "I don't want to do it your way.  I want to do it my way."

 

That's what I was saying about McBeane.   They're immediately turned off when the player's behavior says "I don't want to do it your way."   Just like Belichick is turned off.   McBeane's view, and Belichick's, and apparently the Jets', is that the players must do it their way on things that are of fundamental importance.   

 

The difference between the cultures is, I'm guessing, that the Bills knew what they were getting with Allen and the Jets, apparently, didn't know what they were getting with Darnold.  McBeane don't want a guy who puts himself ahead of the team.  

Contracts and playing are not the same thing. It is not like Darnold wasn't McBeane's 2d highest ranked QB. 

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

4 minutes ago, MJS said:

To be honest, I'm not sure why offset language is even allowed. Seems completely backwards to me. If you give a guy gaurenteed money, why should it matter what he signs with another team? He should get ALL the gaurenteed money he was promised by the team.

 

...Asinine 101" clause CBA style......if that's the best Demaurice can do to flex his "muscle", the 2020 strike looms large......

[Paulus]

1 minute ago, MAJBobby said:

 

If the Jets roll back their long standing offset policy now. You DONT think every player is going to demand no offsets. Never have been in to many negotiations have you. 

Pushing for advantageous language, even if it is untraditional, is perfectly fine, especially when Darnold has the leverage. 

Edited July 28, 2018 by Paulus

[Big Turk]

1 minute ago, Paulus said:

It is what I do for a living. Pushing for advantageous language, even if it is untraditional, is perfectly fine, especially when Darnold has the leverage. 

Exactly. Then you should know better than anyone that once you give in once that now becomes the new baseline for all future negotiations. And the baseline keeps getting pushed further and further as time moves on.

[MAJBobby]

2 minutes ago, Paulus said:

Pushing for advantageous language, even if it is untraditional, is perfectly fine, especially when Darnold has the leverage. 

 

He has No leverage. He is on a slotted deal and the QBs in the class accepted the language. Jets know he will sign. 

 

Its not like he is sitting out all season and going to reenter the draft. 

Edited July 28, 2018 by MAJBobby

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

8 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

Correct.   

 

He obviously isn't thinking about football.   And that's a bad thing. 

 

Look at Shady.   He has his press conference, and over and over the press asks him about his personal issue.  He said, over and over,  "I'm only talking about football."   Why?  Because he knows he has to be 100% about football right now, and he has to manage his personal distractions the best he can without letting it interfere with football.  Talking about his problem with the press distracts him from football and doesn't solve his problem, so he consciously decided not to talk to the press.   

 

McBeane want their players to be all about football.   They support, I'm sure, exactly what Shady is doing with the press.   They would be VERY disappointed if Allen were doing what Darnold is doing.  

Thanks.  So they might actually be getting different advice.  So maybe it isn't Darnold; maybe he's just getting bad advice from his agent and following it.  

 

...it just woefully stinks as to how this game or the love for it has taken a back seat years ago....sure I understand that ALL Owners are BILLIONAIRES and the players want and deserve their fair share.....but go back to the day of your avitar BILLY SHAW, who took time off from his cement mixing job to come and play ball for the Bills at a whopping 18 grand a year......post game locker room was a beer and a cigarette.....and then the guy returned to his REAL job, eventually retiring at age 66 (FULL Social Security) because his NFL pension was loose change in the damn ash tray......seriously?.....and Darnold is worried about double dipping offset?..........

Edited July 28, 2018 by OldTimeAFLGuy

[Paulus]

Just now, matter2003 said:

Exactly. Then you should know better than anyone that once you give in once that now becomes the new baseline for all future negotiations. And the baseline keeps getting pushed further and further as time moves on.

The sword cuts both ways. By your own logic, and Bosa'so performance in SD, that envelope has been pushed...

[Shaw66]

1 minute ago, Paulus said:

Contracts and playing are not the same thing. It is not like Darnold wasn't McBeane's 2d highest ranked QB. 

They ARE two different things, but how a player handles each is very important to McBeane.   I am absolutely sure that McBeane look at a guy like Kahlil Mack and think less of him because he's holding out.   McBeane have been very clear that they don't want distractions.   Beane said it talking about Kaepernick.   If a guy is a distraction, his value to the team is less.  

 

So if, before the draft, you asked Beane to rank the four QBs in order of likelihood of being a signing problem, Beane probably would have said Rosen, Darnold, Mayfield and Allen, in that order.   And if you asked McBeane whether they cared about that, they would have said "absolutely."   Not because they were worried that the guy never would sign, but simply because it says something about their priorities.   Family first, football second, everything else way down the list.   If those aren't your priorities, McBeane value you less.  

[Paulus]

Just now, MAJBobby said:

 

He has No leverage. He is on a slotted deal and the QBs in the class accepted the language. Jets know he will sign. 

 

Its not like he is sitting out all season and going to reenter the draft. 

Bosa. He certainly has more leverage than Bosa.

[MAJBobby]

Just now, Paulus said:

The sword cuts both ways. By your own logic, and Bosa'so performance in SD, that envelope has been pushed...

 

DE vs QB. And also different holdout ie Bosa was about Bonus payout schedule. 

Just now, Paulus said:

Bosa. He certainly has more leverage than Bosa.

 

That is funny. Must be you missed the news that Darnold is already telling his agent to get him to camp. 

 

NO LEVERAGE. 

[Ennjay]

9 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

Maybe what Mayfield got affected Allen's choice.   I prefer to think that Allen just sees it differently.

 You may be right but I have a feeling it's as simple as both signed when they reported to camp and the Browns reported a day before the Bills.  I think Allen was going to sign when he checked in and the language had already been worked out.  (I also believe agents talk and Allen's and Mayfield's respective people had a good idea what was in the other one's contract before either signed.)

 

But on Darnold, living here in NJ I've been reading more in the local stuff about Darnold isn't ready yet, Darnold doesn't process all that quickly, Darnold doesn't protect the ball, Darnold needs a lot of grooming, etc., etc., etc.  It may all be smokescreen since he hasn't signed but it makes me wonder about all that Draft Day crap about the guy fairly glows in the dark with a football in his hand.

[Augie]

17 minutes ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said:

 

 

...why change now?...is he here to play ball with $30+ mil GUARANTEED or is he Sam the Sham?......seriously?.....20 year old has leverage?.....

 

He’s making a stink over THIS? He has a better chance of winning the lottery than being cut, or at least he should think so.