dollars 2 donuts Posted July 18, 2018 Share Posted July 18, 2018 This is all the result of the money the ncaa makes on the backs of these student athletes. Why not make the ncaa a not for profit, or better yet change their by-laws to have them divest themselves of all but a small bit of profits with the rest to go back to education and schools that need it or even charities that help students or student athletes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gugny Posted July 18, 2018 Share Posted July 18, 2018 6 hours ago, Sky Diver said: What a load of crap. You should probably be watching figure skating or synchronized swimming rather than football. It would cause you less heartburn. It's not a load of crap. It's exactly what's happening. It's not like I'm sitting here saying it's criminal and has to be stopped. I honestly don't care all that much. I think it's a flawed system. I think schools should be for learning and scholarships should go to kids who are in pursuit of a degree; not a Lombardi Trophy. And I absolutely love watching Olympic figure skating. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sky Diver Posted July 18, 2018 Author Share Posted July 18, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Gugny said: It's not a load of crap. It's exactly what's happening. It's not like I'm sitting here saying it's criminal and has to be stopped. I honestly don't care all that much. I think it's a flawed system. I think schools should be for learning and scholarships should go to kids who are in pursuit of a degree; not a Lombardi Trophy. And I absolutely love watching Olympic figure skating. It’s obviously possible to play college sports and get an education, but you want to ignore that, for some reason. If college athletics bother you so much, stop watching. You should stop watching the NFL to as their are party to the system. If enough people agree with you and tune out, it will force a change. Edited July 18, 2018 by Sky Diver Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gugny Posted July 18, 2018 Share Posted July 18, 2018 1 hour ago, Sky Diver said: It’s obviously possible to play college sports and get an education, but you want to ignore that, for some reason. If college athletics bother you so much, stop watching. You should stop watching the NFL to as their are party to the system. If enough people agree with you and tune out, it will force a change. I'm sorry that you're interpreting what I've said 98% incorrectly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sky Diver Posted July 18, 2018 Author Share Posted July 18, 2018 13 minutes ago, Gugny said: I'm sorry that you're interpreting what I've said 98% incorrectly. You said that schools "should be for learning and scholarships should go to kids who are in pursuit of a degree; not a Lombardi Trophy." My understanding that you think that colleges should drop athletics and focus solely on academics and pro leagues should develop their own independent developmental programs. Have I missed something? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gugny Posted July 18, 2018 Share Posted July 18, 2018 1 minute ago, Sky Diver said: You said that schools "should be for learning and scholarships should go to kids who are in pursuit of a degree; not a Lombardi Trophy." My understanding that you think that colleges should drop athletics and focus solely on academics and pro leagues should develop their own independent developmental programs. Have I missed something? I actually clarified that in an earlier post. I never said that I wanted colleges to drop athletics. Students who want to play sports in college should absolutely have that opportunity. My problem is athletes going to college to with the sole purpose of playing sports; specifically for free. Those are not students who want to play sports. Those are athletes who want to play sports for a college. And yes ... I do believe pro leagues should have D leagues. Hockey, baseball and basketball have them and they work quite well. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
North Buffalo Posted July 18, 2018 Share Posted July 18, 2018 PS Atheletic departments especially football waste more money then they bring in and cover it up with misc student fees. Make them run them like a true business and we will see how many declare bankruptcy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sky Diver Posted July 18, 2018 Author Share Posted July 18, 2018 I/m sure there are some students that go to college for reasons that aren't primarily related to getting an education, ie. being in frat, partying, meeting girls. getting away from parents. etc. that has nothing to do with athletics. I think the vast majoring of student athletes want to get an education. 4 minutes ago, North Buffalo said: PS Atheletic departments especially football waste more money then they bring in and cover it up with misc student fees. Make them run them like a true business and we will see how many declare bankruptcy. Of course college sports are money losers. Do you think woman's rowing, bowling, fencing, swimming, etc. make money? Successful football programs fund other sports programs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
North Buffalo Posted July 18, 2018 Share Posted July 18, 2018 No even before all that... travel expenses, recruitment expenses, bowl game expenses, conference revenue sharing, more coaches, tutors etc than an NFL team and roster size alone takes care of that plus all the perks coaches and staff recieve. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sky Diver Posted July 18, 2018 Author Share Posted July 18, 2018 2 minutes ago, North Buffalo said: No even before all that... travel expenses, recruitment expenses, bowl game expenses, conference revenue sharing, more coaches, tutors etc than an NFL team and roster size alone takes care of that plus all the perks coaches and staff recieve. The football program at Alabama covers the costs of other athletic programs plus kicking back money to the university. The former president said that hiring Nick Saban was the best financial decision the university has ever made. I can’t speak to other programs because I’m not familiar with them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
North Buffalo Posted July 18, 2018 Share Posted July 18, 2018 (edited) Won’t believe unless they truly opened their books. Dated but a great book on college sports finances was written in the late 90s by Mo Sperber called College Sports Inc and details how Universities shuffle money around to pretend football and basketball programs make money, but actually run at deficits. Only two programs made money back then... Notre Dame... because the priests remformed the finance post Knute Rockney and Frank Leyden. Forget the other one. Would love to see a detailed update. I think there has been something more recent but would need to research. PR departments at these programs are a well of misinformation. Edited July 18, 2018 by North Buffalo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sky Diver Posted July 18, 2018 Author Share Posted July 18, 2018 9 minutes ago, North Buffalo said: Won’t believe unless they truly opened their books. Dated but a great book on college sports finances was written in the late 90s by Mo Sperber called College Sports Inc and details how Universities shuffle money around to pretend football and basketball programs make money, but actually run at deficits. Only two programs made money back then... Notre Dame... because the priests remformed the finance post Knute Rockney and Frank Leyden. Forget the other one. Would love to see a detailed update. I think there has been something more recent but would need to research. PR departments at these programs are a well of misinformation. The Alabama football program had a $46M profit in 2016 - 2017 according to a NCAA financial report. http://sports.usatoday.com/2018/01/27/alabama-football-turned-46m-profit-in-201617/ These guys sure look like they are being exploited, lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
North Buffalo Posted July 18, 2018 Share Posted July 18, 2018 check it out income v expenses: http://www.espn.com/ncaa/revenue/_/type/expenses Not seeing the profit they claim.., Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sky Diver Posted July 18, 2018 Author Share Posted July 18, 2018 (edited) 10 minutes ago, North Buffalo said: check it out income v expenses: http://www.espn.com/ncaa/revenue/_/type/expenses Not seeing the profit they claim.., That's 2008 data. Here's recent data, but it doesn't break out the football program. http://sports.usatoday.com/ncaa/finances/ Edited July 18, 2018 by Sky Diver Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
North Buffalo Posted July 18, 2018 Share Posted July 18, 2018 My bad Ill keep looking, but shows you the gist unless it has changed that much? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sky Diver Posted July 18, 2018 Author Share Posted July 18, 2018 2 minutes ago, North Buffalo said: My bad Ill keep looking, but shows you the gist unless it has changed that much? I believe that it probably has. Saban was hired in 2007. The president of the university said that hiring him was the best financial decision that the university ever made. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
North Buffalo Posted July 18, 2018 Share Posted July 18, 2018 https://bamahammer.com/2018/06/30/alabama-football-tide-near-top-ncaa-revenues-expenses/ Not $46 mill but just over $20 mil not bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sky Diver Posted July 18, 2018 Author Share Posted July 18, 2018 (edited) Barrett Jones was a stellar player and student at Alabama. He earned an accounting degree, Summa Cum Laude and I believe that he also earned a Master's at UA in accounting, again with a 4.0 GPA. Anyway, he hurt his foot in the SEC Championship. Doctor's advised him not to play in the National Championship, but he insisted on playing anyway. They provided him with every accommodation possible to fulfill his desire to play. https://www.si.com/nfl/2017/07/19/nfl-alabama-draft-nick-saban-salary-marquis-johnson-nico-johnson-barrett-jones Again, this story doesn't fit the exploitation narrative. Edited July 18, 2018 by Sky Diver Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sky Diver Posted July 18, 2018 Author Share Posted July 18, 2018 5 minutes ago, North Buffalo said: https://bamahammer.com/2018/06/30/alabama-football-tide-near-top-ncaa-revenues-expenses/ Not $46 mill but just over $20 mil not bad. The football program made $46M, and the athletic department, including the football program, made $15.6M. At least that's how I understand it. The football program has put Alabama on the national radar and has helped student recruitment. I don't know how you monetize that. My son wasn't a big football fan, and the football program had absolutely nothing to do with his decision to attend school at Alabama, but he enjoyed going to the games. It definitely added to his student experience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
North Buffalo Posted July 18, 2018 Share Posted July 18, 2018 oh that last part is true. And the first part is because of the TV contracts these guys have now. Gotta be the reason for the change. Part of the argument to pay these guys now. Jeez the money is insane. Still http://sports.usatoday.com/ncaa/finances/ Shows AL Athletics received $6 mil in fees but only tranferred back $5+ back and ran a deficit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sky Diver Posted July 18, 2018 Author Share Posted July 18, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, North Buffalo said: oh that last part is true. And the first part is because of the TV contracts these guys have now. Gotta be the reason for the change. Part of the argument to pay these guys now. Jeez the money is insane. Still http://sports.usatoday.com/ncaa/finances/ Shows AL Athletics received $6 mil in fees but only tranferred back $5+ back and ran a deficit. I’m not sure where you are getting that from the info provided, but I’m an engineer, not an accountant. More details on the athletic budget here: https://www.al.com/alabamafootball/index.ssf/2018/01/alabama_footballs_piece_of_174.html As a numbers guy, you might be interested in this article. College sports is a big business. https://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/07/sports/ncaafootball/alabama-crimson-tide-football-marketing.html Edited July 18, 2018 by Sky Diver Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
North Buffalo Posted July 18, 2018 Share Posted July 18, 2018 just click on the starred expense difference from USAToday... doesn’t say where all the money went despite the so called profit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill from NYC Posted July 19, 2018 Share Posted July 19, 2018 On 7/17/2018 at 11:56 PM, Sky Diver said: What a load of crap. You should probably be watching figure skating or synchronized swimming rather than football. It would cause you less heartburn. He is taking it personal because his team is certainly a bunch of losers and Coach Saban and the Crimson Tide are consistently great. Could you imagine just how depressing Saturdays are, and soon will be for him once again? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cynical Posted July 19, 2018 Share Posted July 19, 2018 On 7/18/2018 at 5:38 AM, dollars 2 donuts said: This is all the result of the money the ncaa makes on the backs of these student athletes. Why not make the ncaa a not for profit, or better yet change their by-laws to have them divest themselves of all but a small bit of profits with the rest to go back to education and schools that need it or even charities that help students or student athletes? The NCAA is already a non-profit organization. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dollars 2 donuts Posted July 20, 2018 Share Posted July 20, 2018 2 hours ago, Cynical said: The NCAA is already a non-profit organization. Man-o-man, cynical, they sure fooled me! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beast Posted July 21, 2018 Share Posted July 21, 2018 On 7/16/2018 at 7:10 PM, SoCal Deek said: So all the other student athletes, toiling away in the weight room, at practice, risking injury, traveling during Break, and competing in their sports at the NCAA level while still going to class, etc. get what exactly? A free education. If the players are not starters should they pay full tuition? What, exactly, are colleges getting out of bench warmers? On 7/16/2018 at 11:30 PM, Fadingpain said: Ditch the whole damned system and set up a proper professional minor league for football. That will never happen, but it should. So, draft kids out of high school? Imagine the bust rate of that. LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sky Diver Posted July 21, 2018 Author Share Posted July 21, 2018 (edited) With some schools charging up to $65K -$70K/yr, free tution and room/board can be worth over a quarter million dollars. Edited July 21, 2018 by Sky Diver Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted July 21, 2018 Share Posted July 21, 2018 1 hour ago, Sky Diver said: With some schools charging up to $65K -$70K/yr, free tution and room/board can be worth over a quarter million dollars. And costs schools nearly nothing to offer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
row_33 Posted July 21, 2018 Share Posted July 21, 2018 On 7/18/2018 at 9:59 AM, North Buffalo said: PS Atheletic departments especially football waste more money then they bring in and cover it up with misc student fees. Make them run them like a true business and we will see how many declare bankruptcy. Thought I read that the vast majority of Division 1 football loses huge money and many would love to scrap the football program inmediately. get this blight off campus and have a real place of thinking and learning and safety. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sky Diver Posted July 21, 2018 Author Share Posted July 21, 2018 (edited) 19 hours ago, NoSaint said: And costs schools nearly nothing to offer How’s that? If it cost nothing to educate, house and feed students, a lot of kids are getting ripped off. Edited July 21, 2018 by Sky Diver 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
North Buffalo Posted July 21, 2018 Share Posted July 21, 2018 (edited) 20 hours ago, Binghamton Beast said: A free education. If the players are not starters should they pay full tuition? What, exactly, are colleges getting out of bench warmers? So, draft kids out of high school? Imagine the bust rate of that. LOL The time committment for being a division 1 athlete and a real scholar causes a situation that is rare that it can happen very successfully or without a lot of help. It definetly is a choice, but dont confuse a student athlete with a scholar. On 7/17/2018 at 8:40 PM, Sky Diver said: How about rich, frat boys? How about SJW types? How about Asian students? Do you honestly think that different demographic groups don’t cluster? What coach doesn’t have control over his players? Only a very callous individual doesn’t care about his players. I don’t see Saban as that type. Not Diii coaches... My cousin Sam received D1 full boat offers from Duke and UNC for basketball, turned them both down along with four other freshman D1 basketball recruits. They went to Wesleyan in CT on academic scholarships. Started winning beating no 1 D3 team in nation and coach wanted them to practice. They threatened to quit because that wasnt what they were there for. If they wanted to practice they could have gone D1. Needless to say coach backed off. See the difference in power relationships. Edited July 21, 2018 by North Buffalo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sky Diver Posted July 21, 2018 Author Share Posted July 21, 2018 I know all about power relationships. I have worked for someone for the last 35 years. I disagree that you can’t be a scholar and an athlete. Most “academic” scholarships have a financial aid component. I make enough money that my kids didn’t qualify for financial aid, but not enough that I could cut a check for $60K to $70K/yr. Hence we focused on schools that offered guaranteed merit scholarships. Sadly, there are very few left. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KD in CA Posted July 23, 2018 Share Posted July 23, 2018 (edited) On 7/18/2018 at 9:03 AM, Sky Diver said: Barrett Jones was a stellar player and student at Alabama. He earned an accounting degree, Summa Cum Laude and I believe that he also earned a Master's at UA in accounting, again with a 4.0 GPA. Anyway, he hurt his foot in the SEC Championship. Doctor's advised him not to play in the National Championship, but he insisted on playing anyway. They provided him with every accommodation possible to fulfill his desire to play. https://www.si.com/nfl/2017/07/19/nfl-alabama-draft-nick-saban-salary-marquis-johnson-nico-johnson-barrett-jones Again, this story doesn't fit the exploitation narrative. I don't really understand the point of that story. How exactly does Jones' life change if he is paid some small fraction of say a $20m profit? He's one guy out of what, 90 or so? Plus a bunch of other students who contribute to the program. So even if we suppose Jones had been paid a few hundred thousand dollars (before taxes), does that really change his life? Isn't having an accounting degree w/ a 4.0 average worth far more? I think the 'pay college athletes' crowd has this perception that guys would/should be earning millions and millions of dollars. On 7/21/2018 at 7:27 AM, row_33 said: Thought I read that the vast majority of Division 1 football loses huge money and many would love to scrap the football program inmediately. get this blight off campus and have a real place of thinking and learning and safety. That's the only real 'fix' possible. Make all athletics of the 'club' variety; tell the NFL and NBA to sort out their own minor leagues. Edited July 23, 2018 by KD in CA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sky Diver Posted July 23, 2018 Author Share Posted July 23, 2018 (edited) 26 minutes ago, KD in CA said: I don't really understand the point of that story. How exactly does Jones' life change if he is paid some small fraction of say a $20m profit? He's one guy out of what, 90 or so? Plus a bunch of other students who contribute to the program. So even if we suppose Jones had been paid a few hundred thousand dollars (before taxes), does that really change his life? Isn't having an accounting degree w/ a 4.0 average worth far more? I think the 'pay college athletes' crowd has this perception that guys would/should be earning millions and millions of dollars. That's the only real 'fix' possible. Make all athletics of the 'club' variety; tell the NFL and NBA to sort out their own minor leagues. The point of the story was to challenge the conception that college football players are exploited. Jones got two accounting degrees for free playing a game he loves and is well established for life after football. When he was injured, he got world class medical care. If some players don’t take advantage of the opportunity to get an education, it’s their fault. Edited July 23, 2018 by Sky Diver Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KD in CA Posted July 23, 2018 Share Posted July 23, 2018 41 minutes ago, Sky Diver said: The point of the story was to challenge the conception that college football players are exploited. Jones got two accounting degrees for free playing a game he loves and is well established for life after football. When he was injured, he got world class medical care. If some players don’t take advantage of the opportunity to get an education, it’s their fault. I completely agree with that. I only read that exerpt but from the tone of the thread though we were going in the other direction. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
North Buffalo Posted July 23, 2018 Share Posted July 23, 2018 My objection it is their fault... barring injury or just not good enough talent, scholarship can be rescinded. If they are going to do this then make all athletic scholarships 4 years guaranteed. Would also diversify the glut of the haves and have nots. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iinii Posted August 3, 2018 Share Posted August 3, 2018 Pay them. College football is a farce. It is a grand spectacle put on to make millions for the school. The players are exploited and left hung out to dry. Many could never qualify for the schools they “attend”, so the thought they are getting an education is a bit disingenuous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
row_33 Posted August 3, 2018 Share Posted August 3, 2018 33 minutes ago, iinii said: Pay them. College football is a farce. It is a grand spectacle put on to make millions for the school. The players are exploited and left hung out to dry. Many could never qualify for the schools they “attend”, so the thought they are getting an education is a bit disingenuous. you can't just pay them, you have to pay everyone that is an athlete if you do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iinii Posted August 4, 2018 Share Posted August 4, 2018 14 hours ago, row_33 said: you can't just pay them, you have to pay everyone that is an athlete if you do. Pay them all then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
row_33 Posted August 4, 2018 Share Posted August 4, 2018 13 hours ago, iinii said: Pay them all then. So the star of the top football team gets the same payment as the worst player on the worst NCAA tennis team? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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