Roster Review/Offense

[SouthNYfan]

5 minutes ago, Drunken Pygmy Goat said:

 

I agree with @John from Riverside. Clay and O'Leary are reliable, "excellent" pass catchers. Not too many drops between the two of them. And they're not a part of a bottom tier WR corps, they're TEs.  

 

They should be good outlets for our young/inexperienced QBs this year. 

 

They are both inconsistent.

An excellent pass catcher would be reliable game in game our, play in play out.

They have yet to show that.

[John from Riverside]

1 minute ago, SouthNYfan said:

 

They are both inconsistent.

An excellent pass catcher would be reliable game in game our, play in play out.

They have yet to show that.

Actually no that is not true because even the best pass catcher's in the league drop balls.

[SouthNYfan]

Just now, John from Riverside said:

Actually no that is not true because even the best pass catcher's in the league drop balls.

 

What did I say about drops?

Nothing.

They are inconsistent in their performance, which makes them not excellent.

That's the point.

 

Clay would just not show up for multiple games at a time.

He's not reliable from week to week.

That's the point.

You're just looking at catch% which isn't the same thing as reliable route running week to week and play to play.

 

His game logs are all over the place, even when he was with Miami.

Clay will disappear for 3-4 games at a time, then bust out 80-100 yards, then disappear again.

[Drunken Pygmy Goat]

12 minutes ago, SouthNYfan said:

 

They are both inconsistent.

An excellent pass catcher would be reliable game in game our, play in play out.

They have yet to show that.

 

4 minutes ago, SouthNYfan said:

 

What did I say about drops?

Nothing.

They are inconsistent in their performance, which makes them not excellent.

That's the point.

 

Clay would just not show up for multiple games at a time.

He's not reliable from week to week.

That's the point.

You're just looking at catch% which isn't the same thing as reliable route running week to week and play to play.

 

His game logs are all over the place, even when he was with Miami.

Clay will disappear for 3-4 games at a time, then bust out 80-100 yards, then disappear again.

 

You make it sound like our TEs should have been the focal points of our offense for every game. They're certainly not top 5 TEs, but they've been reliable when called upon. Just because their stat lines aren't consistent each week,  it doesn't mean they're not reliable or not excellent pass catchers. Wasn't that the argument here? 

 

So many factors involved in their stat lines from week to week, year to year. Different schemes, different game plans, inconsistency at QB, etc., all played a role. 

 

Again, when called upon, they've been reliable. They can't force the ball to themselves. 

[SouthNYfan]

3 minutes ago, Drunken Pygmy Goat said:

 

 

You make it sound like our TEs should have been the focal points of our offense for every game. They're certainly not top 5 TEs, but they've been reliable when called upon. Just because their stat lines aren't consistent each week,  it doesn't mean they're not reliable or not excellent pass catchers. Wasn't that the argument here? 

 

So many factors involved in their stat lines from week to week, year to year. Different schemes, different game plans, inconsistency at QB, etc., all played a role. 

 

Again, when called upon, they've been reliable. They can't force the ball to themselves. 

 

That's true

Clay wasn't very consistent in Miami either though.

Go look back at his history.

If he's not trying hard week on week out, which it seems like he isn't, then he's inconsistant, therefore I wouldn't call him "excellent" 

 

I look at basketball, Jr Smith is a streaky, inconsistant 3 pt shooter. When he's hot, he hits like 12 of 16 three pointers and is on fire. They he will go like 3 of 20 over the next two games. I would call him streaky and inconsistant, but dangerous when he's on.

That's how I view clay.

He not a reliable safety valve, which is what most TEs are for their QB. He's available randomly to make plays, but isn't consistently open, whether that's the schemes, his effort, his talent level, I'm not sure, but he's not consistently there.

[Soda Popinski]

I thought Teller was a LG and would challenge that spot and Miller would be back battling Ducasse for the RG spot.   

[John from Riverside]

29 minutes ago, SouthNYfan said:

 

What did I say about drops?

Nothing.

They are inconsistent in their performance, which makes them not excellent.

That's the point.

 

Clay would just not show up for multiple games at a time.

He's not reliable from week to week.

That's the point.

You're just looking at catch% which isn't the same thing as reliable route running week to week and play to play.

 

His game logs are all over the place, even when he was with Miami.

Clay will disappear for 3-4 games at a time, then bust out 80-100 yards, then disappear again.

How could you possibly know what I am looking at.

 

That is your problem...you assume to much like you know something.

[SouthNYfan]

2 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

How could you possibly know what I am looking at.

 

That is your problem...you assume to much like you know something.

 

You sound angry John.

I think you need to relax.

What are you looking at them which disctates calling clay an "excellent pass catcher" other than his catch %?

I have pointed out many ways in which he's inconsistant, and many objective things in regards to the wr corps, the QB situation, and the oline potential issues.

You on the other hand seem to be excited about everything because it's the bills and you said they'll be okay, yet have no actual evidence that they will be, and my assumptions are based on reality and objectively looking at our squad, while yours are just "BUT I SAID THEY WILL BE GOOD SO THEY WILL BE. IT'S MY OPINION SO IT CAN'T BE WRONG"

[John from Riverside]

Just now, SouthNYfan said:

 

You sound angry John.

I think you need to relax.

What are you looking at them which disctates calling clay an "excellent pass catcher" other than his catch %?

I have pointed out many ways in which he's inconsistant, and many objective things in regards to the wr corps, the QB situation, and the oline potential issues.

You on the other hand seem to be excited about everything because it's the bills and you said they'll be okay, yet have no actual evidence that they will be, and my assumptions are based on reality and objectively looking at our squad, while yours are just "BUT I SAID THEY WILL BE GOOD SO THEY WILL BE. IT'S MY OPINION SO IT CAN'T BE WRONG" 

Well guess what....your wrong again.

 

Because I NEVER said they were going to be good....I said I am not going to say they are gonna suck until I see the product.

 

There is a difference....

[SouthNYfan]

5 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

Well guess what....your wrong again.

 

Because I NEVER said they were going to be good....I said I am not going to say they are gonna suck until I see the product.

 

There is a difference....

 

On the other thread you said you "don't see a dropoff", which means they will be as good as last year, does it not?

That is a baseless assumption and a massive leap of faith when considering the oline situation.

 

They are replacing the two best starters with two backups who were already on the team on regards to the oline.

That's a fact.

They were the backups for a reason, and the starters retired, leaving the Bills in a pickle.

It's beyond optimistic at best to assume they will be equal to last year's.

 

Their receiving corps best wr just had yet another knee surgery, which objectively means he will most likely regress, but he may not, which I can accept.

 

We lost Thompson who was a decent wr, picked up Kerley, who isn't bad, and is probably a wash.

 

Jones, who was pretty bad last year, tried to jump out of a window, and seems to have a huge mental block with catching the ball.

 

Our fa QB hasn't started in a couple years, and was mediocre when throwing to arguably the great receiving corps in the NFL that year, including aj green who is incredible.

Now he's getting put behind a patchwork, inexperienced oline, with bottom of the league receivers and a inconsistant te. 

 

So please, tell my why you don't see a dropoff with that group?

You just keep saying "you can't tell me my opinion is wrong!"

I'm sure your opinion is that the world is flat also, right?

[Drunken Pygmy Goat]

I think maybe the whole TEs argument here may have gone off the rails a bit...here are the comments I was focusing on:

 

14 hours ago, SouthNYfan said:

the TE's are inconsistent at best, I would not call them "excellent pass catchers"

 

 

14 hours ago, John from Riverside said:

The TE's ARE excellent pass catchers....and they have proven that.

 

 

There's a difference in being "excellent pass catchers" and "inconsistent" (which, based on your follow ups, you're referring more to their overall performance/impact on the stat sheet, week in, week out). Not trying to speak for John here, but I interpreted his comment about being excellent pass catchers as having reliable hands. Maybe that wasn't his point, but that was the basis for my post. 

 

Now perhaps "excellent" might not be the best choice of words, but IMO both Clay, (and especially) O'Leary have great hands for their position. 

Edited May 21, 2018 by Drunken Pygmy Goat

[oldmanfan]

When they put in their offense and then decide who is actually on the roster and who's starting I'll comment.

[SouthNYfan]

3 minutes ago, Drunken Pygmy Goat said:

I think maybe the whole TEs argument here may have gone off the rails a bit...here's the comments I was focusing on:

 

 

 

There's a difference in being "excellent pass catchers" and "inconsistent" (which, based on your follow ups, you're referring more to their overall performance/impact on the stat sheet, week in, week out). Not trying to speak for John here, but I interpreted his comment about being excellent pass catchers as having reliable hands. Maybe that wasn't his point, but that was the basis for my post. 

 

Now perhaps "excellent" might not be the best choice of words, but IMO both Clay, (and especially) O'Leary have great hands for their position. 

 

That's fair, I would interpret a guy being called "excellent pass catcher" as a guy being consistent, especially for a TE who is generally a safe, reliable target week it week out.

Consistency is part of excellence, especially with a TE

[Drunken Pygmy Goat]

48 minutes ago, SouthNYfan said:

That's how I view clay.

He not a reliable safety valve, which is what most TEs are for their QB. He's available randomly to make plays, but isn't consistently open, whether that's the schemes, his effort, his talent level, I'm not sure, but he's not consistently there.

 

I don't agree with this. The bolded part; I would say the same is true for all but 4 or 5 TEs in the league, and Clay is probably a better blocker than those guys. Keeping him in to block at times obviously doesn't allow him to be an outlet on those plays, but he does provide value to the passing attack in those instances. 

 

He led the team in receiving yards, and was 2nd in receptions behind McCoy. Granted that's a reflection of the lack of WRs and inconsistent QB play, but I'd say he's "reliable".

Edited May 21, 2018 by Drunken Pygmy Goat

[John from Riverside]

Just now, SouthNYfan said:

 

On the other thread you said you "don't see a dropoff", which means they will be as good as last year, does it not?

That is a baseless assumption and a massive leap of faith when considering the oline situation.

We are talking about win loss record......coaching comes into play with that.  Remember we jettisoned nearly every key piece this team has accumulated for other players/draft picks and STILL made the playoffs.  My point there was that if the coaching is good enough to overcome premium talent then there is a possiblity that there might not be a drop off.   What is really a baseless assumption is that they will be bad before the season even starts when they found a way to win last year giving away their key pieces.   The optomist (im sorry homer to you) could also look to the fact that the defense should be a year better with more talent and a 2nd year in scheme that McDermott is installing...it made a jump last year...it could make another jump this year.   This does NOT all fall on the offense.  There are three facets to the game.  To be told the most important part of the offense (Shady) is STILL here and they upgraded the RB behind him.  He will once again be the focal point this year while Allen finds his way.

 

 

Just now, SouthNYfan said:

 

They are replacing the two best starters with two backups who were already on the team on regards to the oline.

That's a fact.

They were the backups for a reason, and the starters retired, leaving the Bills in a pickle.

It's beyond optimistic at best to assume they will be equal to last year's.

The only fact in that situation is that 2 starters are being replaced.   You want to know the last time starters were replaced?  Last year when Dawkins replaced Glenn (who was supposed to be our best OL AND THEY STILL GOT IT DONE.  Dawkins returns for a 2nd year (they do tend to get better with playing time) Groy was inserted into the lineup at times this last year WITH NO DROP OFF IN OL PERFORMANCE.  

 

This happens....players go....other players get their opportunity.  If GROY had come in last year and sucked I would be concerned myself but that was not the case.  Decause got better as the season went on.  The weak spot of the OL was and continues to be RT.

 

Once again....to admit defeat before you see the product is really "sticking your head in the sand" as you put it.  You must be the hit at the parties.

Just now, SouthNYfan said:

 

Their receiving corps best wr just had yet another knee surgery, which objectively means he will most likely regress, but he may not, which I can accept.

Thank you so much for accepting that.  Is that because someone easily pointed out to you that Kelvin is not a speed reciever and being a big bodied catch balls in traffic guy was always his game?

Just now, SouthNYfan said:

 

We lost Thompson who was a decent wr, picked up Kerley, who isn't bad, and is probably a wash.

Dont look now....but your sounding optomistic

Just now, SouthNYfan said:

 

Jones, who was pretty bad last year, tried to jump out of a window, and seems to have a huge mental block with catching the ball.

The wild card of the receivers

Just now, SouthNYfan said:

 

Our fa QB hasn't started in a couple years, and was mediocre when throwing to arguably the great receiving corps in the NFL that year, including aj green who is incredible.

Now he's getting put behind a patchwork, inexperienced oline, with bottom of the league receivers and a inconsistant te. 

I hate to burst your bubble but do you realize that statistically Clay was the top TE in the league last year at a certain point?

Just now, SouthNYfan said:

 

So please, tell my why you don't see a dropoff with that group?

You just keep saying "you can't tell me my opinion is wrong!"

I'm sure your opinion is that the world is flat also, right?

This is a easy one and frankly your real problem.  You think you have the right to tell other people THEIR opinions are wrong....YOU DONT.  You think that is having a discussion it isnt.   What you should be doing is proving why YOUR opinion is right and letting people decide what they want (as if you had any control over that to begin with)

Just stick with your own opinion and worry about yourself.

[SouthNYfan]

5 minutes ago, Drunken Pygmy Goat said:

 

I don't agree with this. The bolded part; I would say the same is true for all but 4 or 5 TEs in the league, and Clay is probably a better blocker than those guys. Keeping him in to block at times obviously doesn't allow him to be an outlet on those plays, but he does provide value to the passing attack in those instances. 

 

I won't disagree with you.

I don't think he's bad.

He's probably a top 15 te overall, but he's just inconsistant.

I view consistency as part of excellence.

Is he talented?

Yep.

 

Look at a pitcher in baseball.

If he's very talented but you can't rely on him every start to be good, would you call him excellent?

It talented and inconsistant?

I'll go with the latter, and save "excellent" for elite guys.

[Mark Vader]

17 hours ago, SouthNYfan said:

 

Agreed

Kb isn't very good though.

His knees are most likely shot.

Zay could be good, but as of now he couldn't catch a cold in Siberia.

The rest are unknowns, but most likely subpar.

I'm trying to be optimistic lol

The wide receiver group has question marks, but I wouldn't be dismissive of them.

 

I think Kelvin Benjamin is good, not great. He can make plays because of his size. We'll see if he's recovered from his previous injuries.

 

Zay Jones had a very rough rookie season, but that doesn't mean he won't be better. He will need more chances to prove himself.

 

The player to keep an eye on is Jeremy Kerley. I know that he's on the short side, but he has shown to be a very reliable receiver. He had a good 2017 season with the 49'ers even before Jimmy Christ was acquired. He should be our number 3 receiver.

 

The rest of the group is just a matter of who stands out. Andre Holmes is a great special teams player, but a so-so receiver. Rod Streater could be a good acquisition, but again has to show that he's better from his injury last year. The rest are either rookies or limited time players, whom we don't know what we are really getting with them.

 

There are a lot of question marks, but I don't think the Bills are in big trouble with this group as some people may think. As the season goes on, I believe that these receivers will be good enough to get the Bills points and wins.

 

Of course it also depends heavily on our QB play. Let's also not forget players like Charles Clay & Nick O'Leary, who will have to be key contributors. Not to mention Shady's abilities as a receiver too.

[SouthNYfan]

3 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

We are talking about win loss record......coaching comes into play with that.  Remember we jettisoned nearly every key piece this team has accumulated for other players/draft picks and STILL made the playoffs.  My point there was that if the coaching is good enough to overcome premium talent then there is a possiblity that there might not be a drop off.   What is really a baseless assumption is that they will be bad before the season even starts when they found a way to win last year giving away their key pieces.   The optomist (im sorry homer to you) could also look to the fact that the defense should be a year better with more talent and a 2nd year in scheme that McDermott is installing...it made a jump last year...it could make another jump this year.   This does NOT all fall on the offense.  There are three facets to the game.  To be told the most important part of the offense (Shady) is STILL here and they upgraded the RB behind him.  He will once again be the focal point this year while Allen finds his way.

 

 

The only fact in that situation is that 2 starters are being replaced.   You want to know the last time starters were replaced?  Last year when Dawkins replaced Glenn (who was supposed to be our best OL AND THEY STILL GOT IT DONE.  Dawkins returns for a 2nd year (they do tend to get better with playing time) Groy was inserted into the lineup at times this last year WITH NO DROP OFF IN OL PERFORMANCE.  

 

This happens....players go....other players get their opportunity.  If GROY had come in last year and sucked I would be concerned myself but that was not the case.  Decause got better as the season went on.  The weak spot of the OL was and continues to be RT.

 

Once again....to admit defeat before you see the product is really "sticking your head in the sand" as you put it.  You must be the hit at the parties.

Thank you so much for accepting that.  Is that because someone easily pointed out to you that Kelvin is not a speed reciever and being a big bodied catch balls in traffic guy was always his game?

Dont look now....but your sounding optomistic

The wild card of the receivers

I hate to burst your bubble but do you realize that statistically Clay was the top TE in the league last year at a certain point?

This is a easy one and frankly your real problem.  You think you have the right to tell other people THEIR opinions are wrong....YOU DONT.  You think that is having a discussion it isnt.   What you should be doing is proving why YOUR opinion is right and letting people decide what they want (as if you had any control over that to begin with)

Just stick with your own opinion and worry about yourself.

 

Opinions can be wrong John.

That's just a fact.

There is so much absurdity in the fact that you don't grasp that concept that I'm not sure what to tell you.

 

Where was clay tops in the league?

3 minutes ago, Mark Vader said:

The wide receiver group has question marks, but I wouldn't be dismissive of them.

 

I think Kelvin Benjamin is good, not great. He can make plays because of his size. We'll see if he's recovered from his previous injuries.

 

Zay Jones had a very rough rookie season, but that doesn't mean he won't be better. He will need more chances to prove himself.

 

The player to keep an eye on is Jeremy Kerley. I know that he's on the short side, but he has shown to be a very reliable receiver. He had a good 2017 season with the 49'ers even before Jimmy Christ was acquired. He should be our number 3 receiver.

 

The rest of the group is just a matter of who stands out. Andre Holmes is a great special teams player, but a so-so receiver. Rod Streater could be a good acquisition, but again has to show that he's better from his injury last year. The rest are either rookies or limited time players, whom we don't know what we are really getting with them.

 

There are a lot of question marks, but I don't think the Bills are in big trouble with this group as some people may think. As the season goes on, I believe that these receivers will be good enough to get the Bills points and wins.

 

Of course it also depends heavily on our QB play. Let's also not forget players like Charles Clay & Nick O'Leary, who will have to be key contributors. Not to mention Shady's abilities as a receiver too.

 

I don't think they will be very good.

Their history seems to point to this.

I would love my opinion on this to be wrong.

[John from Riverside]

22 minutes ago, SouthNYfan said:

 

Opinions can be wrong John.

That's just a fact.

There is so much absurdity in the fact that you don't grasp that concept that I'm not sure what to tell you.

 

Where was clay tops in the league?

 

I don't think they will be very good.

Their history seems to point to this.

I would love my opinion on this to be wrong.

Yes....your opinion can definately be wrong.   But even though you cant grasp the concept of this you are entitled to your opinon.

 

and other people have the right to theirs without your bs.

[aristocrat]

39 minutes ago, SouthNYfan said:

 

I won't disagree with you.

I don't think he's bad.

He's probably a top 15 te overall, but he's just inconsistant.

I view consistency as part of excellence.

Is he talented?

Yep.

 

Look at a pitcher in baseball.

If he's very talented but you can't rely on him every start to be good, would you call him excellent?

It talented and inconsistant?

I'll go with the latter, and save "excellent" for elite guys.

 

he had one of the most inconsistent qbs throwing him the ball. can't be consistent if the qb isn't.  clay was a very reliable guy and brings a big blocking game. i'd like to see him get a bunch more targets with the new qb.  If our qb can get that ball to him he could be in the top 7-8 te's in the league. 

[John from Riverside]

1 hour ago, Drunken Pygmy Goat said:

I think maybe the whole TEs argument here may have gone off the rails a bit...here are the comments I was focusing on:

 

 

 

There's a difference in being "excellent pass catchers" and "inconsistent" (which, based on your follow ups, you're referring more to their overall performance/impact on the stat sheet, week in, week out). Not trying to speak for John here, but I interpreted his comment about being excellent pass catchers as having reliable hands. Maybe that wasn't his point, but that was the basis for my post. 

 

Now perhaps "excellent" might not be the best choice of words, but IMO both Clay, (and especially) O'Leary have great hands for their position. 

The whole thing is whack anyway

 

Both Clay and O'Leary have made plays catching the ball (O'Leary the more sure handed) however we also dont throw the ball a ton so the numbers are misleading.

 

But i also recognize that Clay has the bad knee

 

O'Leary has actually gotten better every year.  I am glad that they have stuck with him.    I love how he catches pretty much everything close to him them turns around and punishes defenders for more yards.

 

 

[Drunken Pygmy Goat]

40 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

The whole thing is whack anyway

 

Both Clay and O'Leary have made plays catching the ball (O'Leary the more sure handed) however we also dont throw the ball a ton so the numbers are misleading.

 

But i also recognize that Clay has the bad knee

 

O'Leary has actually gotten better every year.  I am glad that they have stuck with him.    I love how he catches pretty much everything close to him them turns around and punishes defenders for more yards.

 

 

 

Agreed. O'Leary has hands of glue. No gloves; he just looks the part of a "classic" TE, despite his size. Aside from his hands, he's rather average across the board, but just looks like an old school type football player.

 

I don't think that either of us are describing O'Leary or Clay as more than they are. I just don't view them as "not reliable" (when called upon). 

[John from Riverside]

1 minute ago, Drunken Pygmy Goat said:

 

Agreed. O'Leary has hands of glue. No gloves; he just looks the part of a "classic" TE, despite his size. Aside from his hands, he's rather average across the board, but just looks like an old school type football player.

 

I don't think that either of us are describing O'Leary or Clay as more than they are. I just don't view them as "not reliable" (when called upon). 

I think it is a case of "the grass is greener" when comparing our own TE's

 

There are better ones in the league no doubt....but that does not mean that ours are not good.

[BillsBytheBay]

23 hours ago, RPbillsfan said:

I think the offense is much better then what people are thinking.  Really depends on how well the play is at QB position

Man, I have a feeling these wide receivers are going to have some bullets thrown their way this season.

[SouthNYfan]

1 hour ago, John from Riverside said:

Yes....your opinion can definately be wrong.   But even though you cant grasp the concept of this you are entitled to your opinon.

 

and other people have the right to theirs without your bs.

 

Telling somebody their opinion is wrong when their opinion isn't based in reality/objectiveness isn't bs, John.

 

You can be entitled to whatever opinion you want, just like anybody is entitled to tell you that opinion is incorrect, which is the concept that you fail to grasp.

[John from Riverside]

1 minute ago, SouthNYfan said:

 

Telling somebody their opinion is wrong when their opinion isn't based in reality/objectiveness isn't bs, John.

 

You can be entitled to whatever opinion you want, just like anybody is entitled to tell you that opinion is incorrect, which is the concept that you fail to grasp.

Who are you to tell me my opinion is incorrect?

 

That is what YOU fail to grasp.   It always circles back around to this.

[SouthNYfan]

3 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

Who are you to tell me my opinion is incorrect?

 

That is what YOU fail to grasp.   It always circles back around to this.

 

Somebody who objectively looked at something such as the offensive line losing its two best players and replacing them with backups, but your opinion is that there won't be a dropoff.

 

I didn't know I needed some form of license to tell you that an opinion was wrong based on a lack of evidence to support your hypotheses.

 

Very similar to somebody saying something like "tom Brady sucks, he's terrible" which is their opinion, but it's just wrong.

 

So "wrong" is a bit hard, how about "most likely incorrect based on the information available"?

 

Does that make you less offended?

[John from Riverside]

Just now, SouthNYfan said:

 

Somebody who objectively looked at something such as the offensive line losing its two best players and replacing them with backups, but your opinion is that there won't be a dropoff.

 

I didn't know I needed some form of license to tell you that an opinion was wrong based on a lack of evidence to support your hypotheses.

 

Very similar to somebody saying something like "tom Brady sucks, he's terrible" which is their opinion, but it's just wrong.

 

So "wrong" is a bit hard, how about "most likely incorrect based on the information available"?

 

Does that make you less offended?

Its still a matter of opinion.   Who is to say you are the one looking at this objectively?

[SouthNYfan]

15 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

Its still a matter of opinion.   Who is to say you are the one looking at this objectively?

 

We lost our two best linemen, and replaced them with the backups from last year.

We lost then unexpectedly to retirement, so this wasn't something planned that the front office had guys in the wings waiting to take their place.

That's an objective fact.

The most logical opinion, based on that fact, is that the oline will see regression, unless the backups suddenly become miracle pro bowl caliber players.

 

Is that a good enough explanation for you?

 

What objective reasoning have you used to make your deduction that the oline will not regress, other than "I feel it won't"?

What did you base that off of?

[BuffaloHokie13]

14 minutes ago, SouthNYfan said:

We lost our two best linemen, and replaced them with the backups from last year.

We lost then unexpectedly to retirement, so this wasn't something planned that the front office had guys in the wings waiting to take their place.

That's an objective fact.

The most logical opinion, based on that fact, is that the oline will see regression, unless the backups suddenly become miracle pro bowl caliber players.

 

Is that a good enough explanation for you?

 

What objective reasoning have you used to make your deduction that the oline will not regress, other than "I feel it won't"?

What did you base that off of?

I think there is a chance that the shift back to a power scheme will offset the damage a bit.

[I'm Spartacus]

You two guys need to settle down......

[PrimeTime101]

25 minutes ago, SouthNYfan said:

 

We lost our two best linemen, and replaced them with the backups from last year.

We lost then unexpectedly to retirement, so this wasn't something planned that the front office had guys in the wings waiting to take their place.

That's an objective fact.

The most logical opinion, based on that fact, is that the oline will see regression, unless the backups suddenly become miracle pro bowl caliber players.

 

Is that a good enough explanation for you?

 

What objective reasoning have you used to make your deduction that the oline will not regress, other than "I feel it won't"?

What did you base that off of?

First Bolded selection. How often were those same 2 people injured last year? who replaced them then? didn't they do a good job? I thought Dawkins did a fine job. I think your playing Dawkins down as a backup when he is now ready for full time starter EASY and I think Dion can be a Pro Bowler. Looking down on him is foolish. Here is the thing though.

 

You have no info to know the O'Line will regress until they play. your playing guessing games.. You have a right to your opinion based on what is missing and others have a right to there opinion based on what is there. I am not going to say they will be great cause they wont.. but I am not going to pull out my crystal ball and say they will be horrible cause we don't no that either.

 

How many times in this league has players shocked you.. Played absolutely horrible.. like a nightmare there first year -3 years then pull rabbit out of there ass and play strong. We just don't know..

 

THAT being said I feel the line will regress a little but not to the point where I am loosing sleep over it cause this is a whole new system and maybe even blocking system that will take time to learn with new offensive system anyhow. Lets just say the line is horrible this year? I still don't care because we will have what 80-90 mil next year + next years free agents + next years draft class besides?

 

 

Edited May 21, 2018 by PrimeTime101

[SouthNYfan]

7 minutes ago, PrimeTime101 said:

First Bolded selection. How often were those same 2 people injured last year? who replaced them then? didn't they do a good job? I thought Dawkins did a fine job. I think your playing Dawkins down as a backup when he is now ready for full time starter EASY and I think Dion can be a Pro Bowler. Looking down on him is foolish. Here is the thing though.

 

You have no info to know the O'Line will regress until they play. your playing guessing games.. You have a right to your opinion based on what is missing and others have a right to there opinion based on what is there. I am not going to say they will be great cause they wont.. but I am not going to pull out my crystal ball and say they will be horrible cause we don't no that either.

 

How many times in this league has players shocked you.. Played absolutely horrible.. like a nightmare there first year -3 years then pull rabbit out of there ass and play strong. We just don't know..

 

THAT being said I feel the line will regress a little but not to the point where I am loosing sleep over it cause this is a whole new system and maybe even blocking system that will take time to learn with new offensive system anyhow. Lets just say the line is horrible this year? I still don't care because we will have what 80-90 mil next year + next years free agents + next years draft class besides?

 

 

 

Dawkins replaced Glenn if I'm not mistaken.

I conceded that I won't count him since he was hit or miss (Glenn)

We lost wood and incognito to sudden retirement

Wood played 16 games

Incognito played 16 games

That's who I'm talking about

 

I'm just saying I think we will see a regression this year.

22 minutes ago, BuffaloHokie13 said:

I think there is a chance that the shift back to a power scheme will offset the damage a bit.

 

That's a good point.

The point of it all is there will most likely be a regression losing out two best linemen without any replacement.

 

I'm okay with the drop-off, the whole discussion started with everybody calling people who think we will have regression doomsayer's basically.

It's just being realistic.

[ColoradoBills]

On ‎5‎/‎20‎/‎2018 at 1:09 PM, RPbillsfan said:

I think the offense is much better then what people are thinking.  Really depends on how well the play is at QB position

 

I hope you are right.

 

18 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

And they have one good knee between them.....

 

 

I have no feel for what the offense will be yet at all. I just feel like everything on that side olis subjective unless it is "Shady is gonna be vital to our offensive success again."

 

Beyond Shady and maybe Dion Dawkins I have 9 question marks for different reasons. Can Daboll piece something together that is greater than the sum of its parts? Can a Quarterback capable of winning us games emerge? Are they still going to add vets who shake loose elsewhere? 

 

Just too many questions for me to give a proper, considered, view. 

 

This is my opinion too.  I see an unknown offensive scheme with a new inexperienced QB behind a question mark OL.

If all of those are mediocre or less it won't matter who we got at RB, WR and TE.

It's all going to start with Daboll and let's hope he is up to the task.

He is going to earn his money this year.

 

3 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

When they put in their offense and then decide who is actually on the roster and who's starting I'll comment.

 

Until all this happens any opinion of mine would be just speculation.  Part of the fun of this offseason will be to see how this all unfolds.

[PrimeTime101]

41 minutes ago, SouthNYfan said:

 

Dawkins replaced Glenn if I'm not mistaken.

I conceded that I won't count him since he was hit or miss (Glenn)

We lost wood and incognito to sudden retirement

Wood played 16 games

Incognito played 16 games

That's who I'm talking about

 

I'm just saying I think we will see a regression this year.

2016 Groy filled in for several games and did just fine and many feel center is not the biggest position of worry. LG, RG, RT are positions that worry me but hey.. Next man up. you never no and again. I think there will be a slight regression but who knows with new scheme

[SouthNYfan]

14 minutes ago, PrimeTime101 said:

2016 Groy filled in for several games and did just fine and many feel center is not the biggest position of worry. LG, RG, RT are positions that worry me but hey.. Next man up. you never no and again. I think there will be a slight regression but who knows with new scheme

 

Yes I am hoping groy can do okay, but he was woods' backup for a reason, so even if he's okay, the likely result is a regression.

Really that's my point.

 

Here's hoping he's good though.

 

[PrimeTime101]

15 minutes ago, SouthNYfan said:

 

Yes I am hoping groy can do okay, but he was woods' backup for a reason, so even if he's okay, the likely result is a regression.

Really that's my point.

 

Here's hoping he's good though.

 

he was sitting behind him because he was better, yet that does not mean he is a huge drop off.

[SouthNYfan]

36 minutes ago, PrimeTime101 said:

he was sitting behind him because he was better, yet that does not mean he is a huge drop off.

 

Agreed.

So let's assume he's 80% as good

What about incognito backup?

 

And any dropoff is still a dropoff, which was my point from the start, as well as in another thread.

 

A dropoff is realistic to expect, and it's unrealistic to assume there will be no dropoff.

 

 

[reddogblitz]

Half of all Hotrod's picks last year bounced off of Clay's hands.  Saying he has hands of stone may be a little harsh. But he does have hands of Clay.

[PrimeTime101]

8 hours ago, SouthNYfan said:

 

Agreed.

So let's assume he's 80% as good

What about incognito backup?

 

And any dropoff is still a dropoff, which was my point from the start, as well as in another thread.

 

A dropoff is realistic to expect, and it's unrealistic to assume there will be no dropoff.

 

 

as I stated the guard position is the biggest concern. I think LT. RT C are ok. and with those positions little drop. its the guards.