A question about Buffalo?

[Ice bowl 67]

Has it changed a lot since the 1990s? How about the suburbs of Buffalo or Rochester or a lot of other New York cities? Have they grown a lot since the 90s or have been built up or have they gone downhill? 

[mrags]

Peaks and valleys really. 

 

Imo the suburbs have grown while the city has declined. Now it seems like the city is being rejuvenated. But I’ve been saying for a long time that while downtown buffalo is declining, the suburbs like Lancaster, Clarence, Amherst, Williamsville are gaining the losses of the city. 

[Greybeard]

8 hours ago, mrags said:

Peaks and valleys really. 

 

Imo the suburbs have grown while the city has declined. Now it seems like the city is being rejuvenated. But I’ve been saying for a long time that while downtown buffalo is declining, the suburbs like Lancaster, Clarence, Amherst, Williamsville are gaining the losses of the city. 

        With the exception of NYC,  is there a city in New York where what you said is not true?  

[Misterbluesky]

11 hours ago, mrags said:

Peaks and valleys really. 

 

Imo the suburbs have grown while the city has declined. Now it seems like the city is being rejuvenated. But I’ve been saying for a long time that while downtown buffalo is declining, the suburbs like Lancaster, Clarence, Amherst, Williamsville are gaining the losses of the city. 

What part of the city has declined?  Please don't bring up the LoveJoy District or BlackRock....since they have always been poverty stricken.Have you looked at the prices of homes in Allentown and the Elmwood Village lately?

[ExiledInIllinois]

You ask a lot of questions.  Even starting to scare me!

 

[Misterbluesky]

24 minutes ago, ExiledInIllinois said:

You ask a lot of questions.  Even starting to scare me!

 

Respect your elders,sir.

[mrags]

2 hours ago, Misterbluesky said:

What part of the city has declined?  Please don't bring up the LoveJoy District or BlackRock....since they have always been poverty stricken.Have you looked at the prices of homes in Allentown and the Elmwood Village lately?

Google and Wikipedia is your friend. 

 

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buffalo,_New_York

[Misterbluesky]

1 hour ago, mrags said:

Google and Wikipedia is your friend. 

 

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buffalo,_New_York

First off..thank you for treating me like a gentleman..I like that. If we are talking about population in the inner city (especially the east side)...well,the same can be said for every other city in america,for the most part.Now...if these stats suggest low numbers of the entire county..we both know why! Taxes...taxes..taxes..Every city has there low income,social services dependants that reside within. We ,here in Cheektowaga are trying to rid of section 8 housing...I don't want to get political here...but when low income,non tax payers start flocking in...drug addiction starts to act like a high rise condo,theft numbers go up...etc.I could go on and on...but I won't. Peace.

[mrags]

5 hours ago, Misterbluesky said:

First off..thank you for treating me like a gentleman..I like that. If we are talking about population in the inner city (especially the east side)...well,the same can be said for every other city in america,for the most part.Now...if these stats suggest low numbers of the entire county..we both know why! Taxes...taxes..taxes..Every city has there low income,social services dependants that reside within. We ,here in Cheektowaga are trying to rid of section 8 housing...I don't want to get political here...but when low income,non tax payers start flocking in...drug addiction starts to act like a high rise condo,theft numbers go up...etc.I could go on and on...but I won't. Peace.

I own a home in Cheektowaga (Sloan) and Lancaster. And you are absolutely correct about the taxes. The taxes on my 80k house in Sloan are almost as much as my taxes in Lancaster even though I paid  3x that. 

 

I agree with the section 8 and trash. But that doesn’t change the facts about what I was talking about and that was a fact that people are moving out of the city and into the suburbs. Look at big cities across America, and they are not declining in population. They are growing. 

 

I dont know why your arguing with me about any of it honestly. It’s all a fact that cannot be disputed. And besides, the OP asked about the area and I simply stated facts. 

Edited May 9, 2018 by mrags

[ExiledInIllinois]

8 hours ago, Misterbluesky said:

Respect your elders,sir.

Oops. 

[Misterbluesky]

9 minutes ago, mrags said:

I own a home in Cheektowaga (Sloan) and Lancaster. And you are absolutely correct about the taxes. The taxes on my 80k house in Sloan are almost as much as my taxes in Lancaster even though I paid  3x that. 

 

I agree with the section 8 and trash. But that doesn’t change the facts about what I was talking about and that was a fact that people are moving out of the city and into the suburbs. Look at big cities across America, and they are not declining in population. They are growing. 

 

I dont know why your arguing with me about any of it honestly. It’s all a fact that cannot be disputed. And besides, the OP asked about the area and I simply stated facts. 

My only question for you is....do you shop at Camillio's? Their italian sausage is off the charts.

[Roundybout]

9 hours ago, Misterbluesky said:

What part of the city has declined?  Please don't bring up the LoveJoy District or BlackRock....since they have always been poverty stricken.Have you looked at the prices of homes in Allentown and the Elmwood Village lately?

 

I suppose parts of Buffalo that are more or less forgotten have declined, like Kaisertown and places towards Lackawanna.

[ExiledInIllinois]

5 hours ago, Misterbluesky said:

First off..thank you for treating me like a gentleman..I like that. If we are talking about population in the inner city (especially the east side)...well,the same can be said for every other city in america,for the most part.Now...if these stats suggest low numbers of the entire county..we both know why! Taxes...taxes..taxes..Every city has there low income,social services dependants that reside within. We ,here in Cheektowaga are trying to rid of section 8 housing...I don't want to get political here...but when low income,non tax payers start flocking in...drug addiction starts to act like a high rise condo,theft numbers go up...etc.I could go on and on...but I won't. Peace.

Notice when the numbers bulged?  WWII.

 

A company couldn't hire/fire without the approval of the feds. People were pouring in to work the war industry. Not sure what the were, census was taken five years after War.

 

Then 1959, Seaway opens and bipasses BFLo.  The shift in it's economic base shift, type of economy moves.  Who's transporting things up a dead end 40 mile.  A lot of the Great Lakes fleet would over-winter in BFLo harbor... Then the just begin to move on.

 

But speaking of Seaway, companies new the project was taking place years earlier.  They knew the industrial function of city as a transportation hub was coming to a close.

7 minutes ago, BillsEnthusiast said:

 

I suppose parts of Buffalo that are more or less forgotten have declined, like Kaisertown and places towards Lackawanna.

Big areas during War...

Edited May 9, 2018 by ExiledInIllinois

[Misterbluesky]

14 minutes ago, BillsEnthusiast said:

 

I suppose parts of Buffalo that are more or less forgotten have declined, like Kaisertown and places towards Lackawanna.

This is true. As I young boy,I remember walking down Clinton with my two young sisters (70's). Spending a few quarters on bubble gum,sports cards,candy courtesy of our uncle's deep pockets..those days are long gone.On a positive note,Wiechec's still rocks for fish fry's and beef on weck.

Edited May 9, 2018 by Misterbluesky

[US Egg]

59 minutes ago, ExiledInIllinois said:

1959, Seaway opens and bipasses BFLo.

Jobs evaporated for blue collar type workers a lot quicker in the 60's and 70's in this area more than many other NE rust belt cities because of this.

 

Not just in Buffalo, but Erie and Niagara counties and WNY. So few are aware of this fact.

Edited May 9, 2018 by Ifartalot

[ExiledInIllinois]

18 minutes ago, Ifartalot said:

So true. Jobs evaporated for blue collar type workers a lot quicker in the 60's and 70's in this area than many other NE rust belt cities because of this.

 

Not just in Buffalo, but Erie and Niagara counties and WNY. So few are aware of this fact.

BFLo was built as a break-in-bulk transportation hub and died as one when transportation was streamlined.  The Seaway was built for the emergence of Toronto and death of BFLo.

 

Where I work now was tacked on to Seaway appropriations as a "back door" waterborne transport hub to Chicago.  Everything comes up from the South (to be stored or moved thru the Lakes) here or back South after being stored or refined.  BFLo was simply biapassed 40 miles to West @ Welland.  There is really no need for a big IntrA Lake fleet anymore. Some of that fleet called Buffalo its home. Things, companies, spring up around economy.  A machine shop that was tooled for war could have it's machines sold to private buiness that that would service stuff like fleet boats.  What happens when nobody is coming thru anymore?

 

BFLo doesn't even crack the top 200 in ports in the nation.  It's water acess has been made geographically irrelevant.  "Radiator Springs" if may say.

 

I am pained to say this... Nobody was looking out for BFLo when they were sold down the river... They were riding high w/confidence from the boom war years that led to a false sense of security in the advancing automation (this case transportation) age.

Edited May 9, 2018 by ExiledInIllinois

[mrags]

1 hour ago, Misterbluesky said:

My only question for you is....do you shop at Camillio's? Their italian sausage is off the charts.

No. 

[US Egg]

15 minutes ago, ExiledInIllinois said:

BFLo was built as a break-in-bulk transportation and died as one when transportation was streamlined. 

 

The Seaway was built for the emergence of Toronto and death of BFLo.

 

BFLo was simply bipassed 40 miles to West @ Welland.  What happens nobody is coming thru anymore.

 

BFLo doesn't even crack the top 200 in ports in the nation.  It's water access has been made geographically irrelevant. 

 

Nobody was looking out for BFLo when they were sold down the river... They were riding high w/confidence from the boom war years.

Hope you don't mind I condensed it, you said it well and again so few are cognizant of how this all did Buffalo in. Thank you. 

Edited May 9, 2018 by Ifartalot

[ExiledInIllinois]

38 minutes ago, Ifartalot said:

I condensed it, but well said. Thank you. 

Yeah... I put the part about what I am doing and seen here in Illinois... It relates first hand to me in my job.

 

Somebody (I know) was looking out for a place like Chicago in Congress back in 1940s/50s and realized the importance of the very backbone that built the city as a transportation hub.

 

I know people roll their eyes because they know what I do.

 

After almost 30 years, I start to question if I am still in "exile"... At times I don't feel like it fits anymore, but at other times it still does.  My hometown, family, everybody is still back East.

 

An "All-American" canal was proposed after the war to compete with the Welland.  From Tonawanda to Lake Ontario... SeawayMax capacity.  What do you think that would have done to the industrial shipping economy of the region?

 

Take a look at this... Click on each vessel to see what it is.  There is still business out there, just not in Buffalo... It's a dead end road for water commerce:

 

https://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/home/centerx:-79.3/centery:43.4/zoom:8

 

Now look at OP's Green Bay:

 

https://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/home/centerx:-87.1/centery:44.5/zoom:7.851514428357585

 

Look @ Toronto, Detroit, Chicago.  What do you see regarding Buffalo's #1 geographical & natural resource asset! Almost nobody is doing business on that natural resource (around Buffalo). That's sad and should have been thought about when riding high during the war years, planning phases of the improved Seaway that would be complete by 1959.  

 

EDIT: When clicking, notice what country vessels are flagged in.

 

 

Edited May 9, 2018 by ExiledInIllinois

[TheElectricCompany]

Change is a very vague term. 

When I think of change, I think of old timers cashing out and leaving, new industries booming, young people moving in droves, traffic, etc. etc. 

That's what is happening in Austin, Denver, Seattle, Atlanta, San Jose and San Francisco. The change is quite dramatic. 

Buffalo has changed, but I don't think it's much different than what it was when I was growing up there. 

[PromoTheRobot]

On 5/8/2018 at 12:06 AM, Ice bowl 67 said:

Has it changed a lot since the 1990s? How about the suburbs of Buffalo or Rochester or a lot of other New York cities? Have they grown a lot since the 90s or have been built up or have they gone downhill? 

 

Might be worth doing some out your own research. 

 

www.BuffaloRising.com

[tonyjustbcuz]

20 hours ago, mrags said:

Google and Wikipedia is your friend. 

 

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buffalo,_New_York

Well if you go by these population numbers since 1960’s Buffalo’s population has declined by a combined 75%. Obviously these numbers are inaccurate as housing is booming and buyer’s are competing for available properties, the medical corridor is expanding exponentially, Canalside/Harborside is booming and we will be getting a new kid’s museum and other new construction and renovations are going on continuously. The Buffalo Region is definitely on the rise and the evidence is all around us! 

[mrags]

1 minute ago, tonyjustbcuz said:

Well if you go by these population numbers since 1960’s Buffalo’s population has declined by a combined 75%. Obviously these numbers are inaccurate as housing is booming and buyer’s are competing for available properties, the medical corridor is expanding exponentially, Canalside/Harborside is booming and we will be getting a new kid’s museum and other new construction and renovations are going on continuously. The Buffalo Region is definitely on the rise and the evidence is all around us! 

Yup. All the evidence is there except the obvious of course. The increase in population to the city of Buffalo. 

 

Like I said originally, the suburbs are doing great tho. 

[Roundybout]

13 hours ago, Misterbluesky said:

This is true. As I young boy,I remember walking down Clinton with my two young sisters (70's). Spending a few quarters on bubble gum,sports cards,candy courtesy of our uncle's deep pockets..those days are long gone.On a positive note,Wiechec's still rocks for fish fry's and beef on weck.

 

Agreed, a little pricy, but their food is worth it. 

[plenzmd1]

5 minutes ago, BillsEnthusiast said:

 

Agreed, a little pricy, but their food is worth it. 

and cash only (middle finger emoji)!!!!!

[Roundybout]

4 minutes ago, plenzmd1 said:

and cash only (middle finger emoji)!!!!!

 

Hey, in my experience, cash-only places have some of the best food you can get! 

[shrader]

38 minutes ago, tonyjustbcuz said:

Well if you go by these population numbers since 1960’s Buffalo’s population has declined by a combined 75%. Obviously these numbers are inaccurate as housing is booming and buyer’s are competing for available properties, the medical corridor is expanding exponentially, Canalside/Harborside is booming and we will be getting a new kid’s museum and other new construction and renovations are going on continuously. The Buffalo Region is definitely on the rise and the evidence is all around us! 

 

That's not how math works.  Dropping from 532,000 to 256,000 is just over a 50% decline.

[ExiledInIllinois]

2 hours ago, TheElectricCompany said:

Change is a very vague term. 

When I think of change, I think of old timers cashing out and leaving, new industries booming, young people moving in droves, traffic, etc. etc. 

That's what is happening in Austin, Denver, Seattle, Atlanta, San Jose and San Francisco. The change is quite dramatic. 

Buffalo has changed, but I don't think it's much different than what it was when I was growing up there. 

Because... What is the backbone to an economy... Is it a regional market?

 

All those cities you listed still have kept their core purpose as regional markets.

 

Buffalo has always been an "out post" where others expand to.  When they contract, they pull close to where HQ is.

 

Not saying Buffalo didn't have it's share of homegrown business.  But, what was it's historical backbone.  It was a transportation, break in bulk hub.  That's totally a thing of the past.

 

What I am saying is WNY has had to reinvent its "purpose" for being placed there... Name another city, big city, that gad to do that.  You do, I will show you where it's backbone in the economy still exists.

 

Of course there are tons of smaller cities, but Buffalo has to be biggest to go thru this.  It was a national player at one time.

Edited May 9, 2018 by ExiledInIllinois

[mrags]

32 minutes ago, shrader said:

 

That's not how math works.  Dropping from 532,000 to 256,000 is just over a 50% decline.

Math is really tough for some people. 

Edited May 9, 2018 by mrags

[ExiledInIllinois]

28 minutes ago, shrader said:

 

That's not how math works.  Dropping from 532,000 to 256,000 is just over a 50% decline.

Those were War industry numbers.  Artificially inflated. Federally.

 

Industrial capacity was there, close to power (more important back in that day). 

 

Buffalo did great during the war... It was a war town. As industry modernized, it was easier to sprawl.

 

Beth Steel in Lackawanna upgrade in 1960s?  Or, just build new @ Burns Harbor, Indiana.  Exactly what the Big Boxes do today.  Sprawl, build new gets you modernization in a better geographical location.

[TheElectricCompany]

25 minutes ago, ExiledInIllinois said:

Because... What is the backbone to an economy... Is it a regional market?

 

All those cities you listed still have kept their core purpose as regional markets.

 

Buffalo has always been an "out post" where others expand to.  When they contract, they pull close to where HQ is.

 

Not saying Buffalo didn't have it's share of homegrown business.  But, what was it's historical backbone.  It was a transportation, break in bulk hub.  That's totally a thing of the past.

 

What I am saying is WNY has had to reinvent its "purpose" for being placed there... Name another city, big city, that gad to do that.  You do, I will show you where it's backbone in the economy still exists.

 

Of course there are tons of smaller cities, but Buffalo has to be biggest to go thru this.  It was a national player at one time.

Those other cities have gone all in on "high tech", lots of hardware, software and development work going on there. The international dollars, high real estate costs, mass transit investment, traffic and yuppies have followed. 

 

Health sector seems to be the low hanging fruit for WNY, let's keep pushing that angle.  

[Misterbluesky]

1 hour ago, BillsEnthusiast said:

 

Hey, in my experience, cash-only places have some of the best food you can get! 

Yes sir...including Glover's.

[plenzmd1]

1 hour ago, BillsEnthusiast said:

 

Hey, in my experience, cash-only places have some of the best food you can get! 

They also make a fortune on their ATM's conveniently located inside the restaurant!!!

 

I am a Weichecs guy..used to be my main hangout ( before going to Allentown etc) in the 80's. Actually watched the 2nd half of 49's-Giants there to see who we were going to destroy in the Super Bowl after 51-3. 

Edited May 9, 2018 by plenzmd1

[Misterbluesky]

2 minutes ago, plenzmd1 said:

They also make a fortune on their ATM's conveniently located inside the restaurant!!!

 

I am a Weichecs guy..used to be my main hangout ( before going to Allentown etc) in the 80's. Actually watched the 2nd half of 49's-Giants there to see who we were going to destroy in the playoffs after 51-3. 

But the cash only sign is on the front door.

[plenzmd1]

Just now, Misterbluesky said:

But the cash only sign is on the front door.

Only thing I see when I going in a bar..is the bar!!! Then its always..doink in the head when the bill comes!!!!

 

I live in Richmond now, and for most of the games I do not get into town until late Friday or early Saturday..maybe go there 3 times a year now. Still always forget to have cash on me before i go!

 

We did pre game the WJC outdoor game there..there was 7 of us having lunch, 5 drinking beer with our fish..at least 4 pitchers..pretty sure we were under $100 including tip!!!!

[eball]

1 hour ago, plenzmd1 said:

and cash only (middle finger emoji)!!!!!

 

The Bar Bill is cash only as well...I almost always forget that.

[ricojes]

39 minutes ago, Misterbluesky said:

Yes sir...including Glover's.

Do you mean Grover's? 

[Cygnus99]

How is Flint , Michigan compared to Buffalo NY ?

[Misterbluesky]

10 minutes ago, ricojes said:

Do you mean Grover's? 

Yes..in Clarence for burgers.

[ricojes]

Just now, Misterbluesky said:

Yes..in Clarence for burgers.

Yup, still cash only.  Really good cheeseburger soup as well!