Opinions on why we passed on Rosen?

[cba fan]

On ‎4‎/‎27‎/‎2018 at 1:51 PM, Jauronimo said:

I really don't see how we can have this discussion without taking the gloves off and talking politics, religion, and the fact that California QBs just plain suck.

Josh Allen grew up in CA.

[Dr.Sack]

Allen is the kind of guy a southern NC boy Beane can identify with, and after Pegula’s leaked comments from the owners-players meeting it seems that is the culture in Buffalo. 

[peterpan]

Because they are stupid.  I've seen it a lot recently, really good football people simply don't understand quarterback.  I fear Beane is one of those people

[WotAGuy]

36 minutes ago, Dr.Sack said:

Allen is the kind of guy a southern NC boy Beane can identify with, and after Pegula’s leaked comments from the owners-players meeting it seems that is the culture in Buffalo. 

 

Can you point me to those leaked comments?  I missed those and am intrigued. 

[ColdFront_USAF]

Probably because the difference between these two wasn't as drastic as fans and the media make it out to be. If you ever watch a full game of Allen (not a highlight reel), you'll see a guy in a league of his own. Under duress literally ever single play, making accurate passes all over the field and on the run. Sure, he misses some layups and air mails passes from time to time. But he does have accuracy, just needs a little consistency. 

 

Taking that into account, it's not hard to believe he can put it all together at the next level. That combined with his upside, and a personality completely opposite of Rosen, it's not an outlandish decision. 

[Dr.Sack]

15 minutes ago, WotAGuy said:

 

Can you point me to those leaked comments?  I missed those and am intrigued. 

 

Read the article. Also there is audio too. Tell me your thoughts. 

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/25/sports/nfl-owners-kaepernick.html

[Sky Diver]

Allen is physically imposing and he has more upside potential than Rosen.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

20 hours ago, SouthNYfan said:

You're f*cking kidding, right?

You don't think a clone Cam Newton, producing like him is good enough?

You're really asking that?

 

He has a league MVP and carried them to the f*cking Superbowl.

 

I'm not who you're talking to, but um...yeah, I think a clone of Cam Newton, producing like Newton, might not be good enough.

It's my opinion, try not to screech too loudly, 'kay?  I know Brandon Beane considers him a franchise QB and presumably good enough.

 

Newton had a superb rookie season, and a superb Superbowl season, with as you say, league MVP honors.

He's also had 3 seasons where his team has been in the bottom 3rd of the league for offense, and 2 where they were 10-12.

 

So 2 superb seasons, 5 poor to meh seasons on offense, and it's worth asking what role Newton plays in that.  The answer is, a fair bit.  He's had two seasons - his rookie season, and last year - where he's thrown a lot of picks, 3.3%.  That might be survivable, but he hasn't counterbalanced it with the TD production of his SB/league MVP season.  A lot of his years TD/INT ratio hovers around 1.3/1.4.    That's not good. 

 

I will admit I haven't watched him all that much, but when I have, I see spotty accuracy.  Sometimes he's on, and he's Unreal!  Drops jaws, takes your breath away.  Sometimes he's off, inaccurate or places the ball poorly, makes poor decisions, and he gets picked.  He needs a big target with a wide catch radius and a good vertical leap to bail him out, as his ball placement isn't first-rate.   And on the big stage - the Superbowl - granted playing against a tip-top defense but that's what you get in the Big Dance - he didn't manage to step up and bring it.  0 TD, 265 yds, 1 INT, 6 sacks. 

 

So yeah, if Newton had continued to develop after coming into the league - if his INTs were dropping and his accuracy/decision making continued to improve - if he could reproduce that league MVP season - absolutely he'd be good enough.

 

But so far, he hasn't.

 

 

[WotAGuy]

13 minutes ago, Dr.Sack said:

 

Read the article. Also there is audio too. Tell me your thoughts. 

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/25/sports/nfl-owners-kaepernick.html

I’m not seeing the connection between your post about Beane being from southern NC and the culture at OBD, and Pegula’s quotes. 

[SouthNYfan]

54 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I'm not who you're talking to, but um...yeah, I think a clone of Cam Newton, producing like Newton, might not be good enough.

It's my opinion, try not to screech too loudly, 'kay?  I know Brandon Beane considers him a franchise QB and presumably good enough.

 

Newton had a superb rookie season, and a superb Superbowl season, with as you say, league MVP honors.

He's also had 3 seasons where his team has been in the bottom 3rd of the league for offense, and 2 where they were 10-12.

 

So 2 superb seasons, 5 poor to meh seasons on offense, and it's worth asking what role Newton plays in that.  The answer is, a fair bit.  He's had two seasons - his rookie season, and last year - where he's thrown a lot of picks, 3.3%.  That might be survivable, but he hasn't counterbalanced it with the TD production of his SB/league MVP season.  A lot of his years TD/INT ratio hovers around 1.3/1.4.    That's not good. 

 

I will admit I haven't watched him all that much, but when I have, I see spotty accuracy.  Sometimes he's on, and he's Unreal!  Drops jaws, takes your breath away.  Sometimes he's off, inaccurate or places the ball poorly, makes poor decisions, and he gets picked.  He needs a big target with a wide catch radius and a good vertical leap to bail him out, as his ball placement isn't first-rate.   And on the big stage - the Superbowl - granted playing against a tip-top defense but that's what you get in the Big Dance - he didn't manage to step up and bring it.  0 TD, 265 yds, 1 INT, 6 sacks. 

 

So yeah, if Newton had continued to develop after coming into the league - if his INTs were dropping and his accuracy/decision making continued to improve - if he could reproduce that league MVP season - absolutely he'd be good enough.

 

But so far, he hasn't.

 

 

 

I'm not going to "screech" at this.

All fair points.

Newton is a very good QB, who as you said, has been up and down.

He also has had his offense ripped to shreds around him, with receivers basically being non-existent.

I will give you the points that he's up and down.

I wouldn't say he's had 5 poor to meh

I would say in 7 seasons he has 3 pro bowls (including an MVP) and 4 meh seasons.

Poor compared to his high end seasons? Yes.

Poor compared to the rest of the NFL? I'd say average.

 

I would consider him a franchise QB, not an all time great elite like Brady, Rodgers, Manning, but good enough to build a team around and make the other team fear you.

 

[Augie]

If there is any sunshine in the Cam comparisons, I’d say that Allen is far more humble and eager to do anything possible to improve his game. THAT is huge. 

[Dr.Sack]

1 hour ago, WotAGuy said:

I’m not seeing the connection between your post about Beane being from southern NC and the culture at OBD, and Pegula’s quotes. 

 

Surprised you can’t see the connections between why the Bills brass would feel Allen would be a better fit with Buffalo as opposed to Allen. 

 

I think at the end of the day the Bills chose Allen over Rosen for reasons outside of football ability & performance. Now this is my opinion, but can’t one say that might be the reason why they might have felt Allen was a better fit over Rosen? Would the vast majority of Bills fans identify with Allen or Rosen? Did our owners & FO like Allen personally more than Rosen? Would the FO take this into consideration? Which QB is more of a Yes Man type of guy? These are the types of guys the current regime on the surface appears to want playing for them. 

Edited April 30, 2018 by Dr.Sack

[hemma]

They think that in 2 years Allen will pass him and from there, we're good for many years.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

39 minutes ago, SouthNYfan said:

 

I'm not going to "screech" at this.

All fair points.

Newton is a very good QB, who as you said, has been up and down.

He also has had his offense ripped to shreds around him, with receivers basically being non-existent.

I will give you the points that he's up and down.

I wouldn't say he's had 5 poor to meh

I would say in 7 seasons he has 3 pro bowls (including an MVP) and 4 meh seasons.

Poor compared to his high end seasons? Yes.

Poor compared to the rest of the NFL? I'd say average.

 

I would consider him a franchise QB, not an all time great elite like Brady, Rodgers, Manning, but good enough to build a team around and make the other team fear you.

 

 

Good hate screeching.  Thanks.  Not too impressed by pro bowls.  They're popularity contests, often - who's winning ,who's being talked about.

 

Perhaps I wasn't clear enough in what I wrote: "He's also had 3 seasons where his team has been in the bottom 3rd of the league for offense, and 2 where they were 10-12.

So 2 superb seasons, 5 poor to meh seasons on offense, and it's worth asking what role Newton plays in that.  The answer is, a fair bit"

 

HIS TEAM has been in the bottom third of the league on offense, HIS TEAM has had poor to meh seasons on offense.  Not arguable.

 

What can be debated is the role Newton plays in that.  He has not always had a great OL and great pieces around him, granted.  Has he always played up to his potential and lifted his team as much as he could in the circumstances?  I would also say no.  His INTs, spotty accuracy and decision making, IMO, have played a significant role in his teams offensive struggles and it seems to me that he's kind of plateaued.  But maybe I'm wrong, and his supporting cast is worse than I think.

 

What is a franchise QB, exactly?  To some people, it means one of the all time elite greats, the guy who can lift the team and carry the team on his arm.  Newton can still grow, but to date, he has not been that guy - he has shown flashes.

 

To you, it may mean "a QB who can play capabably, sometimes well at the NFL level, and can bring you to the playoffs consistently if you put the pieces around him".  I would certainly agree Newton is in that group.

 

[Niagara]

On 4/27/2018 at 2:51 PM, Magox said:

Because of "politics" and that he's a "Je".

 

Because of the movie "Draft Day" and the fact his team mates did not come to his birthday party.

The Edwards concussion and demise.

The "F&ck Trump" hat, and the fact that he did not disown it. 

Future Colin K. in the making.

[Fadingpain]

4 hours ago, SoTier said:

Beane & Company fell for the lure of a big QB with a big arm.

Perhaps Jesus told them to draft Allen in a vision?

 

Makes as much sense as any theory.

 

 

1 hour ago, Sky Diver said:

Allen is physically imposing and he has more upside potential than Rosen.

Rosen can actually throw a football accurately and has been successful against top college talent, is way smart for a football player, and knows how to read defenses.

[MarlinTheMagician]

Rosen:

 

1. Holds ball;

2. Thinly built;

3. Twice concussed;

4. Self-centered, self-important attitude that will make it difficult for him to lead.

 

[SouthNYfan]

11 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Good hate screeching.  Thanks.  Not too impressed by pro bowls.  They're popularity contests, often - who's winning ,who's being talked about.

 

Perhaps I wasn't clear enough in what I wrote: "He's also had 3 seasons where his team has been in the bottom 3rd of the league for offense, and 2 where they were 10-12.

So 2 superb seasons, 5 poor to meh seasons on offense, and it's worth asking what role Newton plays in that.  The answer is, a fair bit"

 

HIS TEAM has been in the bottom third of the league on offense, HIS TEAM has had poor to meh seasons on offense.  Not arguable.

 

What can be debated is the role Newton plays in that.  He has not always had a great OL and great pieces around him, granted.  Has he always played up to his potential and lifted his team as much as he could in the circumstances?  I would also say no.  His INTs, spotty accuracy and decision making, IMO, have played a significant role in his teams offensive struggles and it seems to me that he's kind of plateaued.  But maybe I'm wrong, and his supporting cast is worse than I think.

 

What is a franchise QB, exactly?  To some people, it means one of the all time elite greats, the guy who can lift the team and carry the team on his arm.  Newton can still grow, but to date, he has not been that guy - he has shown flashes.

 

To you, it may mean "a QB who can play capabably, sometimes well at the NFL level, and can bring you to the playoffs consistently if you put the pieces around him".  I would certainly agree Newton is in that group.

 

 

I'll say I'm okay with the second  definition of a franchise QB.

 

I think the elite, all time great is a level we all want, but it's not realistic to disregard any QB who isn't in that group as a failure, or crap on a good QB just because he isn't a HoF guy. (Not saying YOU do, but many others like to do that)

 

I would say that Tony Romo was a franchise QB for many years.

Many people crapped on him, unfairly in my eyes.

I'd be ecstatic with a guy like him.

11 minutes ago, Fadingpain said:

Perhaps Jesus told them to draft Allen in a vision?

 

Makes as much sense as any theory.

 

 

Rosen can actually throw a football accurately and has been successful against top college talent, is way smart for a football player, and knows how to read defenses.

 

Allen checks the bold boxes as well. 

He's a very smart kid, and outscored the chosen one on the wonderlic.

 

Josh Allen: 37
Josh Rosen: 29
Sam Darnold: 28
Baker Mayfield: 25
Lamar Jackson: 13

 

I don't put much stock in the test in regards to being a QB, but Allen isn't a dummy like you are implying.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

11 minutes ago, Niagara said:

Because of the movie "Draft Day" and the fact his team mates did not come to his birthday party.

The Edwards concussion and demise.

The "F&ck Trump" hat, and the fact that he did not disown it. 

Future Colin K. in the making.

 

I thought that "birthday party" thing had been debunked thoroughly.  Rosen was not "Draft Day"

I'm not sure what "disown" means in the context - he did it, how can he disown it?  He did say that he wouldn't do it again and he regretted it.

 

I do think teams had legit concern that Rosen might take up a cause that could embarrass the league or his team and not be dissuaded by anything anyone on the team might say.  From the leaked NYT article, it does seem that Pegula might share those concerns.  It's unclear whether Rosen was able to lay them to rest.

 

I think people make it all too complicated.  I think Allen was athletically closest to what Beane wanted to see in a QB (think Newton), and they decided he is smart and dedicated enough that he can be coached up.

1 hour ago, Augie said:

If there is any sunshine in the Cam comparisons, I’d say that Allen is far more humble and eager to do anything possible to improve his game. THAT is huge. 

 

Agree.

[Niagara]

1 minute ago, SouthNYfan said:

 

I would say that Tony Romo was a franchise QB for many years.

Many people crapped on him, unfairly in my eyes.

I'd be ecstatic with a guy like him.

Tony Romo is a better announcer, and would make a better coach than he did a QB. He was like Moses who could take Dallas to the crest of the hill to see the promised land, but he just could not take them there.