Why would Jackson take the Wonderlic test and not - -

[Hapless Bills Fan]

5 minutes ago, Chimp said:

So it's a word then?  Thought so.  I normally tolerate you but dude, you're a prick.

 

Your opinion of me is simply fascinating - it wounds me to the core!   Ha ha.  JK. 

 

Let's recap.  You lit into Jackson:

 

17 hours ago, Chimp said:

What the what?  He has been in college for 3 years right?  Enough with the stupidness.  Unfair?  His education should be at the college junior level.

 

I said a bunch of stuff that I think makes reasonable sense:

 

16 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

We live in a world where athletically talented young men are offered a full-time job playing football in college, that may, if they're talented enough and avoid injury, allow them to make serious money playing in the NFL.  Whatever should be, we all know that educating these guys in a general sense is not a priority.  Some of them, who come into college with great time management skills and a strong commitment to education, will be at the college junior level when they've been in college 3 years.  Most of them won't be.

 

The real question isn't how high their Wonderlic score may be, it's how quickly they can grasp a playbook, interpret what they see in the field, and react appropriately.  Now that may be related to Wonderlic score.  Or it may not. 

 

You ignored all that to focus on all those points to drill into what I acknowledge to be a "nit" and a "minor point"  (What exactly does that make you, eh?)

 

16 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

Oh, nit - not familiar with a word "stupidness".  Last I looked, word was "stupidity".  Yeah, it's a minor point, but if you're snarking at someone who doesn't appear to have abilities commensurate with their college year, it looks better if you write correctly yourself.

 

I didn't say it wasn't a word, I said I was not familiar.  Yes, you can find it in the OED along with words like "prepone".  My point is that it's pretty ironic and perhaps a touch hypocritical to snark at Jackson for lacking the abilities of a college junior, whilst using a word that is not standard English usage yourself.

 

Now I will admit, I could have let it go when you chose to ignore all the substance and even avoid my point to snark back "it's a word, look it up".    If you want to snark, best be prepared for return snark.  If that makes me whatever juvenile insult you want to toss at me, I assure you my sleep will be deeply troubled indeed.  

 

Or not.   As to whether or not you tolerate me, what on earth posting chops do you think you've shown here that would make that a point of concern?

[Bag of Milk]

1 hour ago, baskin said:

He saves money....dont need an agent...rookie wage scale is set...agent can get no more and costs you 6 percent

Trust me, there is a reason why even the most seasoned and most intelligent players hire an agent.

Lamar Jackson is  NOT saving money he has been losing money every day he doesn't hire professional people to advocate for his interests.

 

I'm a big Lamar Jackson fan and am rooting for him, but he IS not smarter than everyone else in the league.

 This is almost a 100 billion dollar industry he is entering, it's above his mothers pay grade.

Edited March 30, 2018 by Bag of Milk

[Hapless Bills Fan]

4 minutes ago, baskin said:

He saves money....dont need an agent...rookie wage scale is set...agent can get no more and costs you 6 percent

 

I think the point folks are making is that a rookie's agent can improve his draft position by running PR campaigns with their contacts to "puff you up", managing the rookie's contact schedule with potential teams, and helping the rookie prepare for the pre-draft testing, both mental and physical. 

 

If an agent-managed Jackson could improve his draft position significantly, he could achieve a higher contract that would exceed the agent's 6% commission.  For example, last year the difference between #10 and #20 was $5M; 6% of the #10 $16M contract is less than $1M.  OTOH, the difference decreases as you move later in the 1st round - #20 vs #30 is a difference of 1.7M and 6% of the #20 $11M contract is only $0.7M.

[T-Bomb]

13 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

OK.  What part would you like broken? 

 

I took it twice, last night and this morning.  My score doubled - from 21 to 42.  (I say this to establish my cred and test-taking chops and that I've actually looked at the Wonderlic test).  Give me another shot and a paper test that allows me to skip questions and come back to them and I could probably get higher. 

 

It reminded me very much of the SAT before its most recent revisions.  And the cultural and racial biases of the SAT are very well established.

 

 

OK, then.  Gotcha.  No cultural and racial biases, can tell he's stupid by how he talks.  Right.

 

 

Uhm, there are white ppl that sound stupid when they talk too ya know?

 

And how can math and pattern recognition questions be culturally & racially biased?  Biased against stupid ppl maybe...

 

I took the test once and only got a 26, I took too long trying to answer each question, I got one wrong as I only got to question 27.  There is definitely practice required to increase one's score, but to get a 13 on that test after practicing for it?  Maybe Lamar didn't practice?  Maybe he did, but because the test is so biased against anyone but white men, he has no hope of ever getting a good score? 

 

I guess I just think Lamar's test results show he is rather unintelligent.

 

 

Edited March 31, 2018 by T-Bomb

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

On 3/29/2018 at 10:55 PM, mileena said:

 

It's absolutely not biased against young people. It is biased racially though.

 

 

do tell.

[Scorp83]

On 3/29/2018 at 10:02 PM, Punt75 said:

- - - run the 40 yard dash at the NFL combine or at his recent Pro Day??? 

 

ALL the combine events are optional.  Why take a test that has been proven to be very culturally & racially biased based on an individuals education and life experiences at a young age?  All NFL executives know this but get a bit nervous picking a team leader (QB) with a low score.

 

This is an easy answer.... because he's a....

 

 

 

Wait.... let me catch my breath...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Because he's a PASS FIRST QB!  

 

 

 

 

 

Whew! I LOVE THAT HE DIDN'T RUN... HE PRETTY MUCH SAID "IF YOU WANT ME, I'M A QB... MY SPEED AT THE POSITION DOESN'T MATTER CAUSE I'M FASTER THEN EVERYONE ON THE FIELD"

 

 

 

I believe The plan is Mayfield! If he isn't there at picks 4, 5, & 6... then we stay at 12 or move up to 9 & Draft Jackson... not a bad backup plan.

 

 

 

 

Thanks for coming folks.... don't forget to tip your waitress! ?

Edited March 31, 2018 by Scorp83

[BringBackOrton]

On 3/29/2018 at 10:02 PM, Punt75 said:

- - - run the 40 yard dash at the NFL combine or at his recent Pro Day??? 

 

ALL the combine events are optional.  Why take a test that has been proven to be very culturally & racially biased based on an individuals education and life experiences at a young age?  All NFL executives know this but get a bit nervous picking a team leader (QB) with a low score.

 

The Wonderlic isn't anymore racially biased than the 40 and the bench press.

[The Jokeman]

On ‎3‎/‎29‎/‎2018 at 10:02 PM, Punt75 said:

- - - run the 40 yard dash at the NFL combine or at his recent Pro Day??? 

 

ALL the combine events are optional.  Why take a test that has been proven to be very culturally & racially biased based on an individuals education and life experiences at a young age?  All NFL executives know this but get a bit nervous picking a team leader (QB) with a low score.

 

Because he wants to prove he's a QB not another Kordell Stewart aka "slash" player. 

[BringBackOrton]

On 3/30/2018 at 2:29 AM, Ol Dirty B said:

 

She's not performing a root canal. Comparing a root canal to a rookie contract that is pretty much already written due to the CBA just shows a lack of understanding on your part.

 

It's not him looking to her to make decisions for him.

 

Did you hear him talk about why he made her his agent at all? Or are you just assuming or projecting things on him?

She's killing it as his agent so far. His stock has never been higher.

[GunnerBill]

He is sending a message - I only want to play Quarterback. 

[BigDingus]

I just took the Wonderlic to see how racially biased it is....and although I got a 70%, I didn't finish the last 1/4 of the test due to time restrictions.

 

I have no idea how ANYONE could say that's racially biased. It's simple math, basic problem solving, and some easy turds thrown in that make you roll your eyes.

Here are some questions I got:

1. Which word doesn't belong?  A) Kilometer B) Centimeter C) Meter D) Inch  (gee, I wonder)

2. What is the 8th month of the year? A) March B) August C) June D) September

3.The bill is $19.56. You pay $50.01. How much change should you get? 
4. Are the following words similar, contradictory, or unrelated? Optional / Observational

5. Dog is to vetenarian as ______ is to dentist:   A) stomach B) teeth C) eyes D) leg

6. The bones that make up the spine are: A) humerus B) vertebrae C) femur D) metatarsals

7. Which number is smallest? A) 0  B) .046  C) .468 D) .00468

8. What is the 5th month after March? A) June B) October C) September D) August (yes, almost same question as #2)

And many more....

Most are insanely easy. The only ones that could be "hard' are some of the ones that just take a minute to make sure you got the basic math right. If you can multiply, divide, add & subtract, you should be perfectly fine. A question like "if Martha & Steve have 95 pencils, and Martha has 4 times as many pencils as Steve, how many pencils does Steve have?" isn't "hard," it just takes a moment to make sure you got the info down. 

But the one thing it isn't is "racially biased" in ANY way.

 

Edited March 31, 2018 by BigDingus

[PIZ]

That sure is one long, run-on sentence.

 

 

[BuffaloSol]

4 hours ago, BigDingus said:

I just took the Wonderlic to see how racially biased it is....and although I got a 70%, I didn't finish the last 1/4 of the test due to time restrictions.

 

I have no idea how ANYONE could say that's racially biased. It's simple math, basic problem solving, and some easy turds thrown in that make you roll your eyes.

Here are some questions I got:

1. Which word doesn't belong?  A) Kilometer B) Centimeter C) Meter D) Inch  (gee, I wonder)

2. What is the 8th month of the year? A) March B) August C) June D) September

3.The bill is $19.56. You pay $50.01. How much change should you get? 
4. Are the following words similar, contradictory, or unrelated? Optional / Observational

5. Dog is to vetenarian as ______ is to dentist:   A) stomach B) teeth C) eyes D) leg

6. The bones that make up the spine are: A) humerus B) vertebrae C) femur D) metatarsals

7. Which number is smallest? A) 0  B) .046  C) .468 D) .00468

8. What is the 5th month after March? A) June B) October C) September D) August (yes, almost same question as #2)

And many more....

Most are insanely easy. The only ones that could be "hard' are some of the ones that just take a minute to make sure you got the basic math right. If you can multiply, divide, add & subtract, you should be perfectly fine. A question like "if Martha & Steve have 95 pencils, and Martha has 4 times as many pencils as Steve, how many pencils does Steve have?" isn't "hard," it just takes a moment to make sure you got the info down. 

But the one thing it isn't is "racially biased" in ANY way.

 

Exactly if people actually took the test or reviewed a few questions they would see that. These are at least third year juniors in college and this is not crazy hard stuff.

[Rochesterfan]

4 hours ago, BigDingus said:

I just took the Wonderlic to see how racially biased it is....and although I got a 70%, I didn't finish the last 1/4 of the test due to time restrictions.

 

I have no idea how ANYONE could say that's racially biased. It's simple math, basic problem solving, and some easy turds thrown in that make you roll your eyes.

Here are some questions I got:

1. Which word doesn't belong?  A) Kilometer B) Centimeter C) Meter D) Inch  (gee, I wonder)

2. What is the 8th month of the year? A) March B) August C) June D) September

3.The bill is $19.56. You pay $50.01. How much change should you get? 
4. Are the following words similar, contradictory, or unrelated? Optional / Observational

5. Dog is to vetenarian as ______ is to dentist:   A) stomach B) teeth C) eyes D) leg

6. The bones that make up the spine are: A) humerus B) vertebrae C) femur D) metatarsals

7. Which number is smallest? A) 0  B) .046  C) .468 D) .00468

8. What is the 5th month after March? A) June B) October C) September D) August (yes, almost same question as #2)

And many more....

Most are insanely easy. The only ones that could be "hard' are some of the ones that just take a minute to make sure you got the basic math right. If you can multiply, divide, add & subtract, you should be perfectly fine. A question like "if Martha & Steve have 95 pencils, and Martha has 4 times as many pencils as Steve, how many pencils does Steve have?" isn't "hard," it just takes a moment to make sure you got the info down. 

But the one thing it isn't is "racially biased" in ANY way.

 

 

 

There are multiple issues that make both sides correct on this issue.  The questions themselves are not necessarily racially biased, but if you look at these types of tests and you break down results on racial and cultural lines - you do find significant differences across races and cultures.  Enough of a difference that it is considered statistically biased.

 

If you dig deeper and break races and cultures across socioeconomic and educational lines - you find that the racial and cultural biases begin to disappear and that Black, White, Asian, Latino, etc. with similar backgrounds and similar upbringings should do somewhat similar.  There are still some differences seen, but typically they fall within the margins of error of the data set.  Why you see the initial racial and cultural biases is due to where the majority of the people with that race or class fall - it is due to a statistical difference that causes a perceived bias.  

 

In this case, you have players of different social classes, but at this point similar educational levels - all have supposedly completed High School and taken several years of college classes to provide a more level playing field.  It is not perfect, but it should provide the GMs information on processing speed and ability.  The thing that ruins it as a tool is that anyone with knowledge of the process can prepare and basically get into an acceptable range even if they lack proper knowledge.  The more prep classes these kids take the more the combine becomes a useless tool to differentiate players.

 

You can see it even on this board - people take it once or twice like a normal test and score 12-15 because they are trying to get everything right, not fast.  A few pointers later and they are busting 20 and even 30 - did they get smarter - nope they learned how to take this particular test.  What Jackson’s score does for me - is not show if he is smart or not smart, but that he was ill prepared and that is unacceptable for a QB from a D1 school that puts players into the pro’s all the time.  If this was a small D3 player from a school that rarely puts people into the combine then maybe you can excuse it as the coach and player may not have the correct contacts to prepare, but from Jackson and Louisville- it is bad.

 

This then gets mixed with reports that Jackson struggled on the white board with several teams and he did not look particularly sharp either at the combine or his Pro Day and it opens up questions.  This is where having the experienced agent could have helped.  Jackson should have been better prepared for the combine and put together a better fitting Pro Day and then even if he had struggled - the agent would be leaking info about someone like Cleveland at 4 or Denver interviewing Jackson and pushing some positive info to prevent a fall due to mostly bad press.

[greeneblitz]

for the same reason he scored a 13

[Bing Bong]

Hapless for poster of the year. The PotY. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

9 hours ago, jmc12290 said:

The Wonderlic isn't anymore racially biased than the 40 and the bench press.

 

I believe that would be a very hard contention to defend rationally .  How fast one can move 40 yards and how many times one can propel a given weight upward are about as objective as one can get.

 

Even if you are a staunch believer that intelligence and other standardized tests in general, and the Wonderlic i particular, are not culturally or racially biased, it seems to me it must logically be acknowledged that the questions used allow more potential for bias than a totally objective metric.

 

 

 

[Doc]

17 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

I believe that would be a very hard contention to defend rationally .  How fast one can move 40 yards and how many times one can propel a given weight upward are about as objective as one can get.

 

Even if you are a staunch believer that intelligence and other standardized tests in general, and the Wonderlic i particular, are not culturally or racially biased, it seems to me it must logically be acknowledged that the questions used allow more potential for bias than a totally objective metric.

 

What is it about standardized tests that make them culturally biased against certain non-white cultures but not others?

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

23 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I believe that would be a very hard contention to defend rationally .  How fast one can move 40 yards and how many times one can propel a given weight upward are about as objective as one can get.

 

Even if you are a staunch believer that intelligence and other standardized tests in general, and the Wonderlic i particular, are not culturally or racially biased, it seems to me it must logically be acknowledged that the questions used allow more potential for bias than a totally objective metric.

 

 

 

 

Have you taken the test? If not see above. 

3 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

What is it about standardized tests that make them culturally biased against certain non-white cultures but not others?

 

Exactly. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

8 hours ago, BigDingus said:

I just took the Wonderlic to see how racially biased it is....and although I got a 70%, I didn't finish the last 1/4 of the test due to time restrictions.

I have no idea how ANYONE could say that's racially biased. It's simple math, basic problem solving, and some easy turds thrown in that make you roll your eyes.

 

Long ago, when it snowed 3 feet every month and we all walked to school and back uphill both ways, young Hapless went away to a rather well known school in Beantown and struggled to pass Calculus, despite having actually taken Calculus at (what was then) State Teachers' College in Buffalo, and received an A.  Hapless had a fraternity Big Brother who was All World in Math and asked him for help.  "Those are differentials" said he.  "That's an integral.  What don't you understand?"

 

I tell this tale to make 2 points:

1) the quality of the instruction, expectations, and peer group have a huge impact on the quality of the education one receives.  Alert the media: the expectations and material covered in a calculus class taught at Buff State vs at some tech school where the average math SAT score is 790 differ.  The quality of the basic math curricula at different HS can vary just that much

2) People who have achieved a level of competency in a subject have a tendency, like Hapless' Math Genius "Big Brother", to lose the ability to perceive what the knowledge gaps that hinder others may be.

 

I could go through the online tests I took, which have "gimme" questions like Dingus posted, and which also have some questions I regard as rather obscure, and pull out the latter.

I could post links to articles questioning the job-relatedness and bias of the Wonderlic like this one:

 

"Like the Scholastic Assessment Test, which the NCAA uses to help determine freshman eligibility, the Wonderlic has been criticized for failing to accurately measure learning ability.

College entrance exams have been accused of cultural bias against minorities and women and thus misleading in predicting academic success.  According to data supplied by the testers, the median score in 1992 for all those between ages 16 and 72 was 21.58 out of 50. Whites' median was 22.76, African Americans' 16.20 and Hispanics' 17.26. The Wonderlic test has been rejected by the courts perhaps more than any other test as not being job related," said Richard Seymour of the Lawyers Committee for Civil Rights Under Law, a Washington-based advocacy group."

 

Now maybe that 6.5 average point differential between blacks and whites means the blacks are smarter.  Or maybe it means something else: different educational opportunities, or different cultural immersion, or different resources for test prep.

 

On Jackson's 13, I got nuttin - it seems to me a guy who can read and who prepares ought to be able to do better.  My score on my second test was 42.  See point 2) above.

But on the point that there may be racial bias in things like the chosen meanings of the word comparator pairs, and the type of math problems - yeah, it's an issue that will continue to haunt these kinds of tests.

 

The real question, IMO is captured in another quote from the same article I linked:

"Seymour said if the NFL wants to measure cognitive skills, it should give athletes a playbook and quiz them.

"But the idea that you can get a useful prediction of ability to learn plays by testing people on vocabulary, on complex sentence construction, it's not the real world," he said."