Why would Jackson take the Wonderlic test and not - -

[Mr. WEO]

11 hours ago, Doc said:

 

If he had an agent, I could say for sure that his Wonderlic is the best it's going to get.  With his mother as his agent, there's reasonable doubt.  Now if he had a bad interview and a Wonderlic in the 20's, I'd be inclined to think that I could teach this kid a complex offense.  With a bad interview and a low Wonderlic, I'd be hard-pressed to make that case, and I wouldn't be whipping-out guys from 20+ years ago to do it.  So in his case, I'd say that a low Wonderlic might have cost him a top-5 pick.  But we'll see come draft day, and then several years later if he pans-out or not.

 

But to not run the 40 because it would make teams view him only as a WR is silly.  He got bad advice there, and it only adds to the other negative stuff.

 

I just don't see any GM or HC looking at his not running the 40 as anything at all. They know what they see based on hours of film and interviews, no matter what his wonderlic score was.

 

What do you imagine posting a 40 time would have done for his draft position?

[Doc]

29 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

I just don't see any GM or HC looking at his not running the 40 as anything at all. They know what they see based on hours of film and interviews, no matter what his wonderlic score was.

 

What do you imagine posting a 40 time would have done for his draft position?

 

I don't know.  But if it means nothing, why not run? 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

On 4/2/2018 at 6:35 AM, Doc said:

 

Things have changed in the 20 years since those guys last stopped playing.  Name a QB within that timespan who had a Wonderlic in the teens and had more than one good season, much less was a franchise player?

 

Joe Flacco

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

On 4/1/2018 at 1:57 PM, GoBills808 said:

Allow me to clarify. I was operating under the assumption that saying the Wonderlic measures a person's intelligence is the functional equivalent of saying that a 40 time or bench press measures a person's athleticism, in that neither are reliable indicators in and of themselves. Wonderlic score is to intelligence as 40 yard dash time is to athleticism. Their respective objectivity I referenced is a function only of the fact that they're both measurable, not that they have any real bearing on the individual's athleticism/intelligence they purport to quantify.

 

Thanks for the clarification.  I would agree with this take.  It did not come through clearly from your op.

 

Quote

If you go WAY back you'll notice I agreed with one of your earlier premises, which was (I took it this way, anyway) that the weight we give standardized tests such as the Wonderlic in society at large disproportionately affects certain minority groups, which IS a racial bias concerning these kinds of tests. What I dispute is the claim that the tests and questions themselves (except in very isolated instances) can be construed as biased by race, but I do certainly acknowledge the discrepancies in scores on standardized tests between races (and genders, and socioeconomic strata, etc) and how such testing can disadvantage particular groups of people when used to quantify intelligence in isolation.

 

We're in "violent agreement" then.

 

Quote

And lastly, I don't agree AT ALL that a working knowledge of etymology in addition to geometry is somehow the purview of racial privilege, or that knowing how to calculate circumference is a universal concept but concepts of denotation versus connotation are somehow beyond the comprehension of minority groups. That's ridiculous and patronizing.

 

You got me puzzled here.  This seems like a total whack o' straw (straw man).  As far as I know none of the above have been claimed by anyone, much less me.

The point is that a standard geometric calculation is objective, while sussing out how a testmaker wants you to answer word comparisons (using obscure secondary meanings vs the most common usage) is not.  Totally not seeing where you get off on the flights of fancy about purview of racial privilege or the contention that "comprehension of minority groups" is at issue.  This part, then the "ridiculous and patronizing" conclusion rather ruin what was until then, an edifying and clarifying post.

 

On 4/1/2018 at 9:36 AM, jmc12290 said:

So then the math and language rules of the Wonderlic are objective.  But the use of the Wonderlic to measure intelligence may be biased.

 

So basically, it's just like the 40 and bench press.  An imperfect measure of something impossible to truly quanitfy.  Something we all knew.  But for whatever reason, everyone points at the Wonderlic and not every other potential bias in every other pre draft exercise.  I wonder why.

 

Small point: I don't believe the language rules of the Wonderlic are objective in the manner of math rules at all, if the tests I've seen online reflect the actual article.  They're obscure word-meaning games that require one to guess which meanings the test makers want you to use.  I say that as someone who back in da day blew the doors off such tests and coached my kid to do likewise.

 

Other than that point, thinkwhatcha like.  I personally dislike intelligence and standardized tests and the weight which is placed on them, despite the fact that me and mine historically blow them away.  Any speculation as to "why" is your own dime.

Edited April 3, 2018 by Hapless Bills Fan

[Hapless Bills Fan]

On 4/1/2018 at 6:03 PM, jmc12290 said:

Except for the one synonym that proves you wrong, you're right?

 

Do you know what "synonym" means?  Or do you spend as much time preparing for this debate as LJ did on the Wonderlic?

Verbal headshot.  Game over.

 

Oh, for toast's sake. 

 

FWIW, I didn't respond for a while because I was just released from 36 hrs in the neurological unit at a major teaching hospital.   On Sunday, my daughter's car was totalled by a driver who ran a red light and smashed in the passenger door I was sitting behind whilst we were making a legal left turn on a green light.   They had their heads down looking at a GPS and never even braked as they ran a red light and hit us.  I sustained a concussion, a subdural bleed that is currently assessed as stable, and was released last night with a prescription for anticonvulsives and instructions to avoid banging my head against walls for a month.  My daughter and the front-seat passenger are Thank God, fine.

 

You can't understand or don't agree with my point that word pair comparisons featuring secondary or tertiary (less common) meanings are less objective than math problems, fine.  I know something about it, having nailed a bunch of standardized tests to the wall in my time (SAT, GRE etc) and coached my kid and some of her friends to do likewise. But disagree, NP.

 

Yattering about "Verbal headshot. Game Over" and throwing in gratuitous snark about ""do you spend as much time preparing for this debate as LJ did on the Wonderlic?" simply makes you look like a tool IMO, in the OED Definition #3 sense.  Which is clearly God's Truth, because a word comparison constructed with that less common meaning would be just as objective to you as Pi*D and you know what synonym means.  Congratulations.

 

Now go right on.  Dance around, high five, yell "verbal headshot game over!" as you fist-pump, completely fail to address any actual point that was made, and throw in some good 'ol insulting snark.  Since I'm supposed to avoid banging my head into walls, I'll be elsewhere.

 

 

[BadLandsMeanie]

5 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Oh, for toast's sake. 

 

FWIW, I didn't respond for a while because I was just released from 36 hrs in the neurological unit at a major teaching hospital.   On Sunday, my daughter's car was totalled by a driver who ran a red light and smashed in the passenger door I was sitting behind whilst we were making a legal left turn on a green light.   They had their heads down looking at a GPS and never even braked as they ran a red light and hit us.  I sustained a concussion, a subdural bleed that is currently assessed as stable, and was released last night with a prescription for anticonvulsives and instructions to avoid banging my head against walls for a month.  My daughter and the front-seat passenger are Thank God, fine.

 

You can't understand or don't agree with my point that word pair comparisons featuring secondary or tertiary (less common) meanings are less objective than math problems, fine.  I know something about it, having nailed a bunch of standardized tests to the wall in my time (SAT, GRE etc) and coached my kid and some of her friends to do likewise. But disagree, NP.

 

Yattering about "Verbal headshot. Game Over" and throwing in gratuitous snark about ""do you spend as much time preparing for this debate as LJ did on the Wonderlic?" simply makes you look like a tool IMO, in the OED Definition #3 sense.  Which is clearly God's Truth, because a word comparison constructed with that less common meaning would be just as objective to you as Pi*D and you know what synonym means.  Congratulations.

 

Now go right on.  Dance around, high five, yell "verbal headshot game over!" as you fist-pump, completely fail to address any actual point that was made, and throw in some good 'ol insulting snark.  Since I'm supposed to avoid banging my head into walls, I'll be elsewhere.

 

 

Wow man I am glad you and your family especially, are ok! Be sure and take it easy! And tell someone if you start to see a big pink possum.

 

 

Closer in bold was brilliant.

[BuffaninATL]

7 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Oh, for toast's sake. 

 

FWIW, I didn't respond for a while because I was just released from 36 hrs in the neurological unit at a major teaching hospital.   On Sunday, my daughter's car was totalled by a driver who ran a red light and smashed in the passenger door I was sitting behind whilst we were making a legal left turn on a green light.   They had their heads down looking at a GPS and never even braked as they ran a red light and hit us.  I sustained a concussion, a subdural bleed that is currently assessed as stable, and was released last night with a prescription for anticonvulsives and instructions to avoid banging my head against walls for a month.  My daughter and the front-seat passenger are Thank God, fine.

 

You can't understand or don't agree with my point that word pair comparisons featuring secondary or tertiary (less common) meanings are less objective than math problems, fine.  I know something about it, having nailed a bunch of standardized tests to the wall in my time (SAT, GRE etc) and coached my kid and some of her friends to do likewise. But disagree, NP.

 

Yattering about "Verbal headshot. Game Over" and throwing in gratuitous snark about ""do you spend as much time preparing for this debate as LJ did on the Wonderlic?" simply makes you look like a tool IMO, in the OED Definition #3 sense.  Which is clearly God's Truth, because a word comparison constructed with that less common meaning would be just as objective to you as Pi*D and you know what synonym means.  Congratulations.

 

Now go right on.  Dance around, high five, yell "verbal headshot game over!" as you fist-pump, completely fail to address any actual point that was made, and throw in some good 'ol insulting snark.  Since I'm supposed to avoid banging my head into walls, I'll be elsewhere.

 

 

 

Very glad to hear you, your daughter, and other passenger are doing fine. I was involved in a very similar accident and almost died - spent 2 weeks in a coma. Changes your perspective on things for sure. 

[buffalobloodfloridahome]

There has been some correlation between the wonderlic and reading defenses and going through progressions. They prefer a QB with a 25 or better how much better is irrelevant. By Jackson taking it and scoring so low he is raising red flags about his ability to read and dissect defenses as well as go through his progressions. There are a few outliers Derek Carr and Cam Newton more recent examples they both scored 20 or better. Tyrod a solid 15 nuff said.

[BringBackOrton]

56 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Oh, for toast's sake. 

 

FWIW, I didn't respond for a while because I was just released from 36 hrs in the neurological unit at a major teaching hospital.   On Sunday, my daughter's car was totalled by a driver who ran a red light and smashed in the passenger door I was sitting behind whilst we were making a legal left turn on a green light.   They had their heads down looking at a GPS and never even braked as they ran a red light and hit us.  I sustained a concussion, a subdural bleed that is currently assessed as stable, and was released last night with a prescription for anticonvulsives and instructions to avoid banging my head against walls for a month.  My daughter and the front-seat passenger are Thank God, fine.

 

You can't understand or don't agree with my point that word pair comparisons featuring secondary or tertiary (less common) meanings are less objective than math problems, fine.  I know something about it, having nailed a bunch of standardized tests to the wall in my time (SAT, GRE etc) and coached my kid and some of her friends to do likewise. But disagree, NP.

 

Yattering about "Verbal headshot. Game Over" and throwing in gratuitous snark about ""do you spend as much time preparing for this debate as LJ did on the Wonderlic?" simply makes you look like a tool IMO, in the OED Definition #3 sense.  Which is clearly God's Truth, because a word comparison constructed with that less common meaning would be just as objective to you as Pi*D and you know what synonym means.  Congratulations.

 

Now go right on.  Dance around, high five, yell "verbal headshot game over!" as you fist-pump, completely fail to address any actual point that was made, and throw in some good 'ol insulting snark.  Since I'm supposed to avoid banging my head into walls, I'll be elsewhere.

 

 

Glad to hear you're okay, pal.

[Doc]

Yeah, glad everyone's okay.

[prissythecat]

2 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Joe Flacco

 

 

 

Didnt Flacco score a 27?   

[Mr. WEO]

3 hours ago, Doc said:

 

I don't know.  But if it means nothing, why not run? 

 

Why perform meaningless tasks?  Is that what you're asking?

[GoBills808]

3 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Oh, for toast's sake. 

 

FWIW, I didn't respond for a while because I was just released from 36 hrs in the neurological unit at a major teaching hospital.   On Sunday, my daughter's car was totalled by a driver who ran a red light and smashed in the passenger door I was sitting behind whilst we were making a legal left turn on a green light.   They had their heads down looking at a GPS and never even braked as they ran a red light and hit us.  I sustained a concussion, a subdural bleed that is currently assessed as stable, and was released last night with a prescription for anticonvulsives and instructions to avoid banging my head against walls for a month.  My daughter and the front-seat passenger are Thank God, fine.

 

You can't understand or don't agree with my point that word pair comparisons featuring secondary or tertiary (less common) meanings are less objective than math problems, fine.  I know something about it, having nailed a bunch of standardized tests to the wall in my time (SAT, GRE etc) and coached my kid and some of her friends to do likewise. But disagree, NP.

 

Yattering about "Verbal headshot. Game Over" and throwing in gratuitous snark about ""do you spend as much time preparing for this debate as LJ did on the Wonderlic?" simply makes you look like a tool IMO, in the OED Definition #3 sense.  Which is clearly God's Truth, because a word comparison constructed with that less common meaning would be just as objective to you as Pi*D and you know what synonym means.  Congratulations.

 

Now go right on.  Dance around, high five, yell "verbal headshot game over!" as you fist-pump, completely fail to address any actual point that was made, and throw in some good 'ol insulting snark.  Since I'm supposed to avoid banging my head into walls, I'll be elsewhere.

 

 

Glad you and your daughter are all right. Thanks for your earlier post as well, I think we can put this to bed...we agree on more than it's worth continuing this debate.

[Doc]

1 hour ago, Mr. WEO said:

Why perform meaningless tasks?  Is that what you're asking?

 

Ask the NFL.  They're the one who wants QB's to run the 40-yard dash.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

10 hours ago, BadLandsMeanie said:

Wow man I am glad you and your family especially, are ok! Be sure and take it easy! And tell someone if you start to see a big pink possum.

Closer in bold was brilliant.

 

Thanks.  I ache like the dickens and my shoulders and neck hurt but yeah, we are very very blessed.  

 

The headliner of the car has a skull-shaped indentation right where my head was when the other car t-boned us.  Kid says “now I know for sure you’re hard-headed” har har har

 

7 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

Glad you and your daughter are all right. Thanks for your earlier post as well, I think we can put this to bed...we agree on more than it's worth continuing this debate.

 

Thanks!  And I agree with your agreement, which makes us all most agreeable!

8 hours ago, prissythecat said:

 

 

Didnt Flacco score a 27?   

 

18 is what I saw but just searched and saw 27.  You know, it’s a point that if they’re going to be leaked the NFL should just publish them officially so the straight gouge is out there

9 hours ago, jmc12290 said:

Glad to hear you're okay, pal.

 

Thanks, me too or should I say “us three”

[BillsCelticsAngelsBama]

On ‎3‎/‎29‎/‎2018 at 7:02 PM, Punt75 said:

- - - run the 40 yard dash at the NFL combine or at his recent Pro Day??? 

 

ALL the combine events are optional.  Why take a test that has been proven to be very culturally & racially biased based on an individuals education and life experiences at a young age?  All NFL executives know this but get a bit nervous picking a team leader (QB) with a low score.

 

Maybe his Wonderlic score explains the answer to the topic question

[Mr. WEO]

20 hours ago, Doc said:

 

Ask the NFL.  They're the one who wants QB's to run the 40-yard dash.

 

 

I don't believe any GM cared that he didn't run it. 

 

As I said before, that, and the combine in general, is just part of the big NFL TV show they want everyone to talk about.

[BringBackOrton]

9 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

I don't believe any GM cared that he didn't run it. 

 

As I said before, that, and the combine in general, is just part of the big NFL TV show they want everyone to talk about.

You give the NFL too much credit.  More teams are run poorly than are run well.  

 

John Ross had one good year in college.  At Washington.  And because he ran a 4.22, he went in the top ten.

 

Acting like the combine doesn't matter to these people is flat out wrong.  Rightly or wrongly.

[Mr. WEO]

2 minutes ago, jmc12290 said:

You give the NFL too much credit.  More teams are run poorly than are run well.  

 

John Ross had one good year in college.  At Washington.  And because he ran a 4.22, he went in the top ten.

 

Acting like the combine doesn't matter to these people is flat out wrong.  Rightly or wrongly.

 

 

Don't get me wrong.  I know there are really bad GMs--the Bills had a string of them recently.

 

I'm talking about "the NFL".  They put on this show.  They MAKE us view it as vital.  Their goal is to have the NFL dominate the press cycle 52 weeks a year--and they are the only league that can do this and this is why they dominate the "playoffs only" other pro sports.

 

And this discussion is about a QB, not a WR.  No QB will move up because of his 40 time.

[BringBackOrton]

1 minute ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

Don't get me wrong.  I know there are really bad GMs--the Bills had a string of them recently.

 

I'm talking about "the NFL".  They put on this show.  They MAKE us view it as vital.  Their goal is to have the NFL dominate the press cycle 52 weeks a year--and they are the only league that can do this and this is why they dominate the "playoffs only" other pro sports.

 

And this discussion is about a QB, not a WR.  No QB will move up because of his 40 time.

I think you could argue Mike Vick's combine secured him the #1 overall pick.  His college numbers were not very impressive.