corta765 Posted March 29, 2018 Share Posted March 29, 2018 I have wanted to post this for weeks but I needed to think of how to correctly approach this so here we go. It is more then likely the Bills will draft a QB at some point in the 1st round with the expectation he is going to be the franchise QB long term. My question that I have been thinking of is what defines success then if he becomes a franchise guy? Are we talking wins, amazing stats, playoff success, or just general stability at the position for a decade with a mix of these? This is not a necessarily a comparison of who I think is better, rather how these QBs have done in their careers. For my criteria this pertains to 1st round QBs only, I am only going as recent as 2012 otherwise its a bit too hard to judge the newer guys, and the player had to have some level of success in one of these categories: QB's who win: These QB's may not have the most fantastic regular seasons stat wise, but they have a track record of consistently putting up solid seasons that result usually in playoff appearances and 10 win seasons at least. Aikman is the pinnacle of this group and Alex Smith is basically the floor with McNabb being your middle. These are all solid passers Troy Aikman 89' Alex Smith 2005' Donovan McNabb 99' Stat QB's: These QBs are guys who in terms of passing the ball have incredible numbers but their success in the regular season and post season is lacking. Sometimes with guys like Marino, Rivers, and Stafford they lacked a roster around them to get their fair chance at a SB, some like Palmer & Pennington saw injuries derail promising careers and the numbers hint at what could've been, and for some like Cutler & O'Brien they can throw but they lacked the leadership skills to take it to the bank. Andrew Luck 2012' Matt Stafford 2009' Jay Cutler 2006' Phillip Rivers 2004' Carson Palmer 2003' Chad Pennington 2000' Dan Marino 83' Ken O'Brien 83' Playoff darlings: During the regular season these guys at points will make you want to pull your hair out..and then the post season comes and they both have performances that make you want to say they are great. Joe Flacco 2008' Eli Manning 2004' Success in multiple avenues from regular season, playoffs, stats etc...: These are guys who have put up MVP caliber seasons, had playoff success, and had multiple years worth of regular season success for their team. For all of these players the idea of putting them in the HOF either has happened or is a pretty valid thought in some way. Cam Newton 2011' Matt Ryan 2008' Aaron Rodgers 2005' Ben Rothlisberger 2004' Michael Vick 2001' Peyton Manning 98' Steve McNair 95' Drew Bledsoe 93' John Elway 83' Jim Kelly 83' Looking at this I just find more questions. Was Troy Aikman a better QB then a guy like Philip Rivers because of his winning SB's? Steve McNair had one of the best season a QB had in total and his career frankly looks better then Eli Manning who has two Super Bowl rings so wouldn't he be more of a preferred franchise guy to have your QB model? Matt Stafford managed to take an 0-16 team that has been perennially bad and managed to make them playoff contenders most years; is that more impressive then Cam Newton's career who has been great but also had vastly more help across the board? Donovan McNabb had a better level of success team wise in the NFL and even beat Michael Vick's Falcons in the NFC title, yet Vick was a transcendent talent who changed the QB position and without the dog fighting was on pace for a historically unique career so who really would you take? Truthfully none of these questions require an answer nor am I looking for one. What it does show is how we can view success in variety of different ways and at the same point failure. The quarterback position of any in football is hardest to judge in terms of success because I think we all value things so differently and as fans we live in a world where everything now is championship or bust. If Darrelle Revis never won a SB would that be held against his HOF resume compared to other HOF caliber CBs? If the Bills drafted one of these quarterbacks and his career were to arch like Matt Stafford isn't that still a success to insulate the position and get playoffs appearances? Or would you rather a Joe Flacco type who benefited from a better team but is a lesser passer? In the end I arrived at this for my expectations for a franchise passer. I want someone who can give me at least 10-12 years where the QB position is not an issue and they have a career throwing for some real solid yardage. In the end that QB cannot control the roster that may be put around him which to a degree will shape the success possible for that QB. Of all the things I despise about Patriot fans it is how they don't appreciate they had a true franchise QB with Bledsoe and literally tripped into the greatest QB ever in my humble .02 opinion. It is so hard to get that position right and they are going nearly 30 years of having that hole filled. I am very excited to see how the draft plays out and curious how you frame your expectations for a QB. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RollBillsRoll Posted March 29, 2018 Share Posted March 29, 2018 5 minutes ago, corta765 said: In the end I arrived at this for my expectations for a franchise passer. I want someone who can give me at least 10-12 years where the QB position is not an issue and they have a career throwing for some real solid yardage. Done. Save your picks, Build a talent laden roster (Dominating D, solid O-line and running game) around AJMac and watch the wins pile up. Hey, worked for Saban! In all seriousness, would Bills fans take a guy like Flacco, for the next 12 years, if it meant getting to the playoffs in 8 of those years, including making it to 2 divisional title games and 1 SB appearance? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Linen Posted March 29, 2018 Share Posted March 29, 2018 It's a good question but it can be defined in many ways. Matt Ryan has been a franchise QB and so has Tom Brady. See my point? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
row_33 Posted March 29, 2018 Share Posted March 29, 2018 I considered Joe Ferguson a franchise QB, never elite, got the job done, they went as far as they could during his career. and i don't care about his stats, he was a success with the BIlls 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rockpile Posted March 29, 2018 Share Posted March 29, 2018 4 minutes ago, RollBillsRoll said: Done. Save your picks, Build a talent laden roster (Dominating D, solid O-line and running game) around AJMac and watch the wins pile up. Hey, worked for Saban! In all seriousness, would Bills fans take a guy like Flacco, for the next 12 years, if it meant getting to the playoffs in 8 of those years, including making it to 2 divisional title games and 1 SB appearance? I want a guy who is the captain of a team that can take it one more step than just GETTING there and actually WIN a Super Bowl. I have waiting for them to be league champions since the AFL in the 1965 season. Seriously, not even ONE NFL Championship after 52 Super Bowls? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
row_33 Posted March 29, 2018 Share Posted March 29, 2018 win a super bowl? i'd settle for two games in a row where the fans are not totally ashamed of the QB. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papazoid Posted March 29, 2018 Share Posted March 29, 2018 team wise = win a playoff game individually = make a pro bowl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boatdrinks Posted March 29, 2018 Share Posted March 29, 2018 To be considered franchise, I'd expect multiple playoff appearances, division titles and at least one championship game appearance. That would constitute a success. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ddaryl Posted March 29, 2018 Share Posted March 29, 2018 (edited) 17 minutes ago, papazoid said: team wise = win a playoff game individually = make a pro bowl that is not franchise at all. You described Tyrod Taylor and he is not franchise. Franchise QB's play better than average for at least 10 years and put up multiple playoff worthy seasons that include multiple playoff wins. There individual stats usually land them in the top half or top 10 in QB multiple different ranking stats in most of those years Edited March 29, 2018 by ddaryl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corta765 Posted March 29, 2018 Author Share Posted March 29, 2018 36 minutes ago, White Linen said: It's a good question but it can be defined in many ways. Matt Ryan has been a franchise QB and so has Tom Brady. See my point? Exactly and that's why I bring up a guy like Flacco who may be more above average then anything else BUT he has SB, playoff appearances, and has beaten Brady. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prissythecat Posted March 29, 2018 Share Posted March 29, 2018 9 minutes ago, corta765 said: Exactly and that's why I bring up a guy like Flacco who may be more above average then anything else BUT he has SB, playoff appearances, and has beaten Brady. Flacco is at best above average. Career QB Rating of 84.1 . Elite guys like Brady, Brees, Rodgers have career ratings in the high 90s to low 100s . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaCrispy Posted March 29, 2018 Share Posted March 29, 2018 Couldn’t tell ya....we haven’t had one in so long 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boatdrinks Posted March 29, 2018 Share Posted March 29, 2018 18 minutes ago, corta765 said: Exactly and that's why I bring up a guy like Flacco who may be more above average then anything else BUT he has SB, playoff appearances, and has beaten Brady. At the time of the SB win, most would have considered Flacco to be franchise. He still has to be considered a success, but he is no longer a franchise QB imo. Once franchise doesn't mean always franchise in the NFL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoCal Deek Posted March 29, 2018 Share Posted March 29, 2018 Don’t make it more complicated than it needs to be. A Franchise QB is a guy who’s been the consistent starter for a single team for some extended period of seasons. For purpose of this discussion I’m going to say...five or more years. You can all debate wins and losses all day long, but if a QB has been your starter for that long....by definition he’s been your Franchise’s QB. Simple! Everything else is just message board chatter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prissythecat Posted March 29, 2018 Share Posted March 29, 2018 2 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said: Don’t make it more complicated than it needs to be. A Franchise QB is a guy who’s been the consistent starter for a single team for some extended period of seasons. For purpose of this discussion I’m going to say...five or more years. You can all debate wins and losses all day long, but if a QB has been your starter for that long....by definition he’s been your Franchise’s QB. Simple! Everything else is just message board chatter. Not necessarily an unreasonable definition. I believe we can assume that no team would keep a bad QB as starter for 5 or more years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoCal Deek Posted March 29, 2018 Share Posted March 29, 2018 41 minutes ago, prissythecat said: Not necessarily an unreasonable definition. I believe we can assume that no team would keep a bad QB as starter for 5 or more years. Bingo! I have no idea how other people can call a young, two year starter a Franchise QB. He could get injured. He could lose his mojo. Whatever. At that point he'll just have been 'that guy who was really good for a couple of years and then no one ever heard from him again'. On the other end of the spectrum are guy like Rivers and Stafford who's never really won any games of real importance for the Chargers and Lions, but would anyone argue that both aren't their "Franchise's QB"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corta765 Posted March 29, 2018 Author Share Posted March 29, 2018 1 hour ago, Boatdrinks said: At the time of the SB win, most would have considered Flacco to be franchise. He still has to be considered a success, but he is no longer a franchise QB imo. Once franchise doesn't mean always franchise in the NFL. Right but my point is if your drafting a QB you want at least 10 years out of the guy. Flacco has given 10+ years the Ravens were successful and won a SB partially because of him. So I would say they succeeded in drafting a franchise guy even if he ended up being more Alex Smith in the end then Aaron Rodgers if you catch my point. But I do agree they have to start thinking new QB soon that knee injury has made him never look the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoCal Deek Posted March 29, 2018 Share Posted March 29, 2018 1 hour ago, corta765 said: Exactly and that's why I bring up a guy like Flacco who may be more above average then anything else BUT he has SB, playoff appearances, and has beaten Brady. Flacco has been the Ravens starting QB for many years now. He is definitely their Franchise QB. Tom Brady went quite a few years without winning a super bowl. Did he stop being a Franchise QB during that period? Come on! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rico Posted March 29, 2018 Share Posted March 29, 2018 Minimum requirement to me for a successful franchise QB is that he is able to make the players around him better. That’s only the starting point though in evaluating him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freddie's Dead Posted March 29, 2018 Share Posted March 29, 2018 The Vincent Thomas Lombardi Trophy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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