Tales From a Socialist Utopia

[Koko78]

21 minutes ago, Taro T said:

Purely speculation, but would expect a large part of that is that the people suffering the most were the biggest supporters of Chavez & his nationalization policies.  To turn on his successor would actually require some introspection.

 

That, & the last time a coup was attempted it did not go well.  Those that would be best suited to organize & lead another are no longer available.

 

Certainly, there's a lot more than just that, but those would seem to be major factors.

 

The prior Venezuelan leadership screwed up after they defeated the early 90's coup. They should have executed the plotters (including the #2 guy, Hugo Chavez), rather than exiling/jailing them.

 

More of the story: Never leave the coup planners alive!

[Taro T]

36 minutes ago, GG said:

 

For the same reason there was no revolution n USSR.  Ordinary people didn't believe that their lives were horrid, while the regime bought off the military.

 

Well, suppose there's that too.  

28 minutes ago, Koko78 said:

 

The prior Venezuelan leadership screwed up after they defeated the early 90's coup. They should have executed the plotters (including the #2 guy, Hugo Chavez), rather than exiling/jailing them.

 

More of the story: Never leave the coup planners alive!

 

But that gets dicey.  If you fear the plotters would become martyrs & cause the masses to see the justness of the cause & just how injust the government is, then you really don't want to execute them (at least publicly & officially) for fear of adding to the rebellion.

 

Of course, exiling or jailing just adds to their resolve.  

 

Probably why most repressive regimes choose a variant of the bolded as the answer:  take them all out covertly & then suppress the media coverage.

Edited August 21, 2018 by Taro T

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

17 minutes ago, Taro T said:

Probably why most repressive regimes choose a variant of the bolded as the answer:  take them all out covertly & then suppress the media coverage.

 

How hard can it be to "disappear" people?

 

Hire Rodham to do it.

[snafu]

39 minutes ago, Taro T said:

 

Well, suppose there's that too.  

 

But that gets dicey.  If you fear the plotters would become martyrs & cause the masses to see the justness of the cause & just how injust the government is, then you really don't want to execute them (at least publicly & officially) for fear of adding to the rebellion.

 

Of course, exiling or jailing just adds to their resolve.  

 

Probably why most repressive regimes choose a variant of the bolded as the answer:  take them all out covertly & then suppress the media coverage.

 

 

Or, you can keep them alive to harvest their spare organs -- like they do in China.

https://www.newsweek.com/china-forces-its-political-prisoners-sell-body-parts-421799

 

 

 

[DC Tom]

42 minutes ago, Taro T said:

 

Well, suppose there's that too.  

 

But that gets dicey.  If you fear the plotters would become martyrs & cause the masses to see the justness of the cause & just how injust the government is, then you really don't want to execute them (at least publicly & officially) for fear of adding to the rebellion.

 

Of course, exiling or jailing just adds to their resolve.  

 

Probably why most repressive regimes choose a variant of the bolded as the answer:  take them all out covertly & then suppress the media coverage.

 

Plenty of people have taken power after being jailed or exiled.

 

No one ever took power after being killed.

[snafu]

2 minutes ago, DC Tom said:

 

Plenty of people have taken power after being jailed or exiled.

 

No one ever took power after being killed.

 

Is that a quote from the preface to "What Happened"?

 

[sherpa]

1 hour ago, Taro T said:

Purely speculation, but would expect a large part of that is that the people suffering the most were the biggest supporters of Chavez & his nationalization policies.  To turn on his successor would actually require some introspection.

 

That, & the last time a coup was attempted it did not go well.  Those that would be best suited to organize & lead another are no longer available.

 

Certainly, there's a lot more than just that, but those would seem to be major factors.

 

Agree fully.

 

Still, after years of proven failure, in general, the population does something.

 

Just a goddamn mess, and totally not necessary.

 

I hope what follows is not the worst of this, but I expect it will be.

 

[Koko78]

4 hours ago, Taro T said:

But that gets dicey.  If you fear the plotters would become martyrs & cause the masses to see the justness of the cause & just how injust the government is, then you really don't want to execute them (at least publicly & officially) for fear of adding to the rebellion.

 

Of course, exiling or jailing just adds to their resolve. 

 

Probably why most repressive regimes choose a variant of the bolded as the answer:  take them all out covertly & then suppress the media coverage.

 

Accidents happen... coupled with a disinformation campaign to discredit them.

 

If there's no actual link between the "accident" and the government, along with plenty of smearing of the deadite (such as a car "accident" coming while the conspirator was "drunk"), you're not going to forment as much outrage as an arbitrary public execution following a show trial.

[snafu]

1 hour ago, Koko78 said:

 

Accidents happen... coupled with a disinformation campaign to discredit them.

 

If there's no actual link between the "accident" and the government, along with plenty of smearing of the deadite (such as a car "accident" coming while the conspirator was "drunk"), you're not going to forment as much outrage as an arbitrary public execution following a show trial.

 

I disagree, nothing like a showy public example to keep the masses cowed.

 

 

[3rdnlng]

5 hours ago, DC Tom said:

 

Plenty of people have taken power after being jailed or exiled.

 

No one ever took power after being killed.

Some Christian you are.

[DC Tom]

5 minutes ago, 3rdnlng said:

Some Christian you are.

 

Who said I was Christian?  I'm the guy who, at his niece's baptism, when the priest said "Do you reject the devil and all his works?" stage-whispered to my brother "This is where Moe Green gets it in the eye!"

 

Haven't been to another baptism since.

[Koko78]

15 minutes ago, snafu said:

I disagree, nothing like a showy public example to keep the masses cowed.

 

Cowing the masses is not the way to go. You have to maintain the facade of legitimacy and work to have the public trust the corrupt institutions you've implemented. Public violence should be used with kid gloves (with the real messages being sent behind the scenes.) People are less likely to question your benevolent rule, and more likely not to believe/join the opposition, if they have faith that you're working towards their best interests.

 

Don't get me wrong, the odd show trial and public execution has its uses, but not for the popular opposition - that's how you create martyrs. Use show trials to over-inflate a lesser actor; one that people aren't emotionally invested in, and aren't likely to start a riot over. The message gets sent, while the true threats are quietly dealt with.

[3rdnlng]

11 minutes ago, Koko78 said:

 

Cowing the masses is not the way to go. You have to maintain the facade of legitimacy and work to have the public trust the corrupt institutions you've implemented. Public violence should be used with kid gloves (with the real messages being sent behind the scenes.) People are less likely to question your benevolent rule, and more likely not to believe/join the opposition, if they have faith that you're working towards their best interests.

 

Don't get me wrong, the odd show trial and public execution has its uses, but not for the popular opposition - that's how you create martyrs. Use show trials to over-inflate a lesser actor; one that people aren't emotionally invested in, and aren't likely to start a riot over. The message gets sent, while the true threats are quietly dealt with.

Damn, the things you learn in law school!

[Koko78]

2 minutes ago, 3rdnlng said:

Damn, the things you learn in law school!

 

Well, I had to fit something in between Environmental Law and Sports Law.

[GG]

This could fit either here or in the Europe refugee thread, but I think it's more appropriate here, because of the knee-jerk responses about the Scandinavian socialist role model.

 

A funny thing happened on the way to open borders.

Quote

Europe has seen another nationalist, anti-immigrant party surge in a general election — this time in famously liberal Sweden.

 

 

[Nanker]

 

[3rdnlng]

51 minutes ago, Nanker said:

 

Classic Reagan, smooth as can be.

[Nanker]

15 minutes ago, 3rdnlng said:

Classic Reagan, smooth as can be.

45 should take lessons.

[3rdnlng]

4 minutes ago, Nanker said:

45 should take lessons.

On the surface I would agree with you but Trump has to be Trump, even though he's sometimes embarrassing. If he were to lose his authenticity he would lose his base.

[B-Man]