Trading up with a player during the draft

[Hapless Bills Fan]

 

I will break this out as a separate topic as it got lost during a thread.

 

I would appreciate if anyone can provide insight on how it would work to include a player for a trade-up during the draft.

Can you give an example of a time when it happened?    Not before the draft (common) but actually ON DRAFT DAY, during the draft

 

I see it as problematical.

 

Normally, the procedure on a trade is:

1) teams agree in principle on terms

2) teams file paperwork with NFL

3) traded player reports to new team for physical

4) new team signs off that player has passed physical

5) trade goes through

OR

4) new team says player has not passed physical
5) trade is renegotiated OR trade is voided

 

If you trade for a player during the draft, steps 3) to 5) seem problematical - it would obviously be hard to void the trade and get your pick back when it's already been used.

 

 

[OldTimer1960]

17 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I will break this out as a separate topic as it got lost during a thread.

 

I would appreciate if anyone can provide insight on how it would work to include a player for a trade-up during the draft.

Can you give an example of a time when it happened?    Not before the draft (common) but actually ON DRAFT DAY, during the draft

 

I see it as problematical.

 

Normally, the procedure on a trade is:

1) teams agree in principle on terms

2) teams file paperwork with NFL

3) traded player reports to new team for physical

4) new team signs off that player has passed physical

5) trade goes through

OR

4) new team says player has not passed physical
5) trade is renegotiated OR trade is voided

 

If you trade for a player during the draft, steps 3) to 5) seem problematical - it would obviously be hard to void the trade and get your pick back when it's already been used.

 

 

I think it is pretty rare, maybe mostly because of the problems you highlighted.

Here is a trade from 2016, late round pick for a player.  The picks involved were late enough that they must not have been very worried about what would happen if Martin hadn't passed the Pats' physical.

 

get pick from Pats for WR

Texans receive: 
» 2016 fifth-round pick (No. 166): D.J. Reader

 

Patriots receive: 
» WR Keshawn Martin 
» 2016 sixth-round pick (No. 196): Traded to Dolphins

Edited February 16, 2018 by OldTimer1960

[ColoradoBills]

Good topic.

I'm assuming it has to do about all these Cordy Glenn/Tyrod Taylor scenarios.

It seems to me the only way to do this is trade the player to the highest bidding team first.

Then bundle the pick with the other picks.

 

This off course means you got to be comfortable with the initial trade because it may not end up being what the 2nd big trade team wants. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

34 minutes ago, ColoradoBills said:

Good topic.

I'm assuming it has to do about all these Cordy Glenn/Tyrod Taylor scenarios.

It seems to me the only way to do this is trade the player to the highest bidding team first.

Then bundle the pick with the other picks.

 

This off course means you got to be comfortable with the initial trade because it may not end up being what the 2nd big trade team wants. 

 

Yes, exactly, the threads that propose we package Cordy Glenn and 2 first round picks and etc to move up to #2 or whatever.

 

It seems to me we might be able to trade a player for a pick ahead of the draft - let's say we offer to trade Cordy Glenn and our #22 pick to move up to #8 or #9.

The Bears or 49ers could bring Glenn in, check him out, and approve the trade well ahead of the draft.  So that might work.  They keep a 1st round pick, they get a top LT, we get a higher pick, everyone is happy.

 

Then on the day of the draft, say the player we want is there at #3 but we don't think will last until #8.  So we offer #8, #21, and this year's and next year's #2 or whatever it takes to move from #8 to #3.  I could see that as feasible (not trying to argue for likely), but logistically feasible.

 

But as one trade on the day of the draft, including a player, it seems to me it would have very high risk for the trading partner.

[CommonCents]

Don't worry about it Cordy has no value with that contract history and his continued inability to actually play football.

[White Linen]

2 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Yes, exactly, the threads that propose we package Cordy Glenn and 2 first round picks and etc to move up to #2 or whatever.

 

It seems to me we might be able to trade a player for a pick ahead of the draft - let's say we offer to trade Cordy Glenn and our #22 pick to move up to #8 or #9.

The Bears or 49ers could bring Glenn in, check him out, and approve the trade well ahead of the draft.  So that might work.  They keep a 1st round pick, they get a top LT, we get a higher pick, everyone is happy.

 

Then on the day of the draft, say the player we want is there at #3 but we don't think will last until #8.  So we offer #8, #21, and this year's and next year's #2 or whatever it takes to move from #8 to #3.  I could see that as feasible (not trying to argue for likely), but logistically feasible.

 

But as one trade on the day of the draft, including a player, it seems to me it would have very high risk for the trading partner.

 

You can trade a player but I highly doubt the player would be forced to report to the new team for them to "check him out".  I'd have to think that the player is under no obligation to report earlier than the league rules for the start of the off season.  

[ColoradoBills]

55 minutes ago, White Linen said:

 

You can trade a player but I highly doubt the player would be forced to report to the new team for them to "check him out".  I'd have to think that the player is under no obligation to report earlier than the league rules for the start of the off season.  

 

It seems that after a trade (which is submitted to the NFL and NFLPA) is completed, the players new team has the rights to the player.

In the CBA the player must submit to a physical if requested by the team.

 

I would guess in most player trades there is a contract requirement that the trade is void if a player fails his physical.

 

For draft day trades the team cannot get the player in to exam so they must have to be traded "as is" like Oldtimer said above.

 

8. PHYSICAL CONDITION. Player represents to Club that he is and will maintain himself in excellent physical condition. Player will undergo a complete physical examina-tion by the Club physician upon Club request, during which physical examination Player agrees to make full and complete disclosure of any physical or mental condition known to him which might impair his performance under this contract and to respond fully and in good faith when questioned by the Club physician about such condition. If Player fails to establish or maintain his excellent physical condition to the satisfaction of the Club physician, or make the required full and complete disclosure and good faith responses to the Club physician, then Club may terminate this contract.

 

Lawyers got ALL the angles covered!  LOL.

[KRT88]

On draft day, using players as assets seem highly unlikely. Have we ever in recent times seen a trade where team x trade 4th pick to team y for 12th and a player? 

[xRUSHx]

Good thread OP.

I would think a player type trade would have to happen long before the draft to make sure the trade would be a valid one esspecialy if it is for a higher pick otherwise a team could end up poop out of luck. As is just like a used car, buyer beware.

Edited February 17, 2018 by xRUSHx

[MAJBobby]

17 hours ago, Commonsense said:

Don't worry about it Cordy has no value with that contract history and his continued inability to actually play football.

 

The Contract isnt bad for a team taking it on. Sorry

Lets say this thing is true with the Giants. More I think about it they probably have been given the ability to give him a physical or examin his medical stuff well in advance. 

 

It would get lost in all the predraft stuff if Bills floated Cordys medicals over to Giants for review. Combine they could also easily quietly examine those. 

 

I dont think i have ever recalled a failed physical voided a Draft Day player trade. 

[CommonCents]

7 minutes ago, MAJBobby said:

 

The Contract isnt bad for a team taking it on. Sorry

Lets say this thing is true with the Giants. More I think about it they probably have been given the ability to give him a physical or examin his medical stuff well in advance. 

 

It would get lost in all the predraft stuff if Bills floated Cordys medicals over to Giants for review. Combine they could also easily quietly examine those. 

 

I dont think i have ever recalled a failed physical voided a Draft Day player trade. 

I'd be less surprised if he gets cut than if he gets traded. 2m roster bonus coming up in one month.

[MAJBobby]

3 minutes ago, Commonsense said:

I'd be less surprised if he gets cut than if he gets traded. 2m roster bonus coming up in one month.

 

They will pick the option up. 

 

Even with Picking the option up to work a trade once trade happens Bills will get just under 5M in cap savings. 

 

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/buffalo-bills/cordy-glenn-9851/

[BarleyNY]

Usually there’s an alternate compensation agreed upon should a traded player fail a physical. Player X or draft pick Y.  IIRC Chip Banks was originally included in the trade that netted the Browns Bernie Kosar in the supplemental draft.  He refused to report to San Diego and they got a first round pick instead. 

[Chuck Wagon]

Pretty sure the Pats traded for Randy Moss in the middle of the draft.

[BarleyNY]

Notably players tend to have the least value on draft day.  QBs will always get a premium but any other position will be looked at as a dump by the team getting rid of them.  Bad fit for new scheme or other issues - health, contract, attitude, etc.  Draft weekend is a much better time to acquire a player than trade one away. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

5 hours ago, KRT88 said:

On draft day, using players as assets seem highly unlikely. Have we ever in recent times seen a trade where team x trade 4th pick to team y for 12th and a player? 

 

This is exactly my question - and asking for examples!  And I'm seeing lots of talk-talk-chatter but the only concrete example given has been a late-round pick for a player.

1 hour ago, Chuck Wagon said:

Pretty sure the Pats traded for Randy Moss in the middle of the draft.

 

Good call.  Yes, he was, but it was for a 4th round pick.  From Wiki on Randy Moss, and yes he was required to pass a physical:
During the first day of the NFL Draft, the Patriots and Raiders discussed the trade several times before reaching an agreement. Bill Belichick spoke with Moss for the first time about the possibility of joining the Patriots at 2:30am Sunday morning.^[49] Moss then boarded a plane and arrived in Boston later that morning on April 29 and was required to pass a team administered physical. Once he was cleared by Patriots officials, a trade was completed that sent Randy Moss to New England in exchange for a fourth-round selection in the 2007 NFL Draft. The draft pick had been acquired by the Patriots the previous day from the San Francisco 49ers, and the Raiders selected John Bowie.^[46]

 

I don't see how that could be worked out during the 1st round.

 

18 hours ago, White Linen said:

 

You can trade a player but I highly doubt the player would be forced to report to the new team for them to "check him out".  I'd have to think that the player is under no obligation to report earlier than the league rules for the start of the off season.  

 

Um, Yes?  That's SOP for a trade.

 

3 hours ago, MAJBobby said:

The Contract isnt bad for a team taking it on. Sorry

Lets say this thing is true with the Giants. More I think about it they probably have been given the ability to give him a physical or examin his medical stuff well in advance. 

It would get lost in all the predraft stuff if Bills floated Cordys medicals over to Giants for review. Combine they could also easily quietly examine those. 

I dont think i have ever recalled a failed physical voided a Draft Day player trade. 

 

That's one of the OP questions: exactly what Draft Day player trades do you recall?  So far I have examples of a trade for a late-round pick, and a trade that was discussed on Day 1 and involved the player flying in for a physical Day 2 before it was finalized for Day 3 (4th round). 

 

In horse trading, the SOP is that the horse buyer wants to look at the horse for himself.  I'm trading a valuable pick for a package including the player, Like Hell am I interested in medical records the trading team chooses to send me.  I want the player so my own employees, who (ought to) have some skin in the game of whether or not the player is fit, can have a look at him. 

 

I think there might be issues of medical confidentiality involved as well.  I don't think teams get to randomly throw players medical records around the league to other teams without the player's knowledge and consent, and if Glenn knew and consented, his agent knows and it would have likely come out by now.

Edited February 17, 2018 by Hapless Bills Fan

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, BarleyNY said:

Usually there’s an alternate compensation agreed upon should a traded player fail a physical. Player X or draft pick Y.  IIRC Chip Banks was originally included in the trade that netted the Browns Bernie Kosar in the supplemental draft.  He refused to report to San Diego and they got a first round pick instead. 

 

Right, so let's say we say "Cordy Glenn, or a 2018 1st".  Wouldn't the receiving team be all like "look, if you're willing to offer us a 1st how about you just do that deal instead?"  Or alternatively, it kind of leaves us in limbo because they can throw Glenn and his salary back at us and take our pick at their option. 

 

I would think that would be a bad deal for us, from a salary cap and draft capital management position.

Edited February 17, 2018 by Hapless Bills Fan

[whatdrought]

I wonder if they write a secondary clause into the trade for such a case? As in, "in case of player failing physical, team A will remit x-pick to team B as compensation in place of player." 

3 hours ago, BarleyNY said:

Usually there’s an alternate compensation agreed upon should a traded player fail a physical. Player X or draft pick Y.  IIRC Chip Banks was originally included in the trade that netted the Browns Bernie Kosar in the supplemental draft.  He refused to report to San Diego and they got a first round pick instead. 

 

This ^

1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Right, so let's say we say "Cordy Glenn, or a 2018 1st".  Wouldn't the receiving team be all like "look, if you're willing to offer us a 1st how about you just do that deal instead?"  Or alternatively, it kind of leaves us in limbo because they can throw Glenn and his salary back at us and take our pick at their option. 

 

I would think that would be a bad deal for us, from a salary cap and draft capital management position.

 

Obviously they have to take the trade we're willing to give. If we're saying "We know glen will pass the physical, and we're so confident we'll put the 1st rounder up as collateral" they can't say "well just give us the 1st rounder" cause we would send them packing. 

 

Im sure refusing a player for a "failed" physical is not something to risk fudging as it would create a huge potential suite from the player and the trading team.

 

 

The Jets  gave up players to move up for Sanchez in the first round: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/26/sports/football/26jets.html

 

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

15 minutes ago, whatdrought said:

Im sure refusing a player for a "failed" physical is not something to risk fudging as it would create a huge potential suite from the player and the trading team.

 

I'm not so sure of that.  I think there is a lot of judgement allowed and one team's "yes" can be another team's "no" (see: McCantgo, John; Williams, Chris)

 

15 minutes ago, whatdrought said:

The Jets  gave up players to move up for Sanchez in the first round: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/26/sports/football/26jets.html

 

OH, good find!  So in this case, it sounds as though key factors were 1) the receiving team coach's familiarity with the players (Mangini had coached them all) 2) a continued good relationship between the GM and his fired coach

 

Well done

[ColoradoBills]

37 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I'm not so sure of that.  I think there is a lot of judgement allowed and one team's "yes" can be another team's "no" (see: McCantgo, John; Williams, Chris)

 

 

OH, good find!  So in this case, it sounds as though key factors were 1) the receiving team coach's familiarity with the players (Mangini had coached them all) 2) a continued good relationship between the GM and his fired coach

 

Well done

 

Like I have already said, good thread Hapless.

 

On the lighter side,  Sanchez is a FA and can be got for less the 2 million!

I got to ask people, how did that Sanchez trade turn out?

 

Moral of the story................drafting QBs is a gamble.

[whatdrought]

35 minutes ago, ColoradoBills said:

 

Like I have already said, good thread Hapless.

 

On the lighter side,  Sanchez is a FA and can be got for less the 2 million!

I got to ask people, how did that Sanchez trade turn out?

 

Moral of the story................drafting QBs is a gamble.

 

2 AFC championship games... Could be argued it was worth it. And two Championship games with Rex Ryan as coach might as well be 5 superbowls. 

Edited February 17, 2018 by whatdrought

[Cruiserplayer]

8 hours ago, KRT88 said:

On draft day, using players as assets seem highly unlikely. Have we ever in recent times seen a trade where team x trade 4th pick to team y for 12th and a player? 

Last year 49ers Broncos trade involving Kapri Bibbs. http://www.sacbee.com/sports/nfl/san-francisco-49ers/article147593014.html

[ColoradoBills]

8 minutes ago, whatdrought said:

 

2 AFC championship games... Could be argued it was worth it. And two Championship games with Rex Ryan as coach might as well be 5 superbowls. 

 

I'm sure in his mind he has won 5.

Just seeing his name makes me a little queasy.

[MAJBobby]

5 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

This is exactly my question - and asking for examples!  And I'm seeing lots of talk-talk-chatter but the only concrete example given has been a late-round pick for a player.

 

Good call.  Yes, he was, but it was for a 4th round pick.  From Wiki on Randy Moss, and yes he was required to pass a physical:
During the first day of the NFL Draft, the Patriots and Raiders discussed the trade several times before reaching an agreement. Bill Belichick spoke with Moss for the first time about the possibility of joining the Patriots at 2:30am Sunday morning.^[49] Moss then boarded a plane and arrived in Boston later that morning on April 29 and was required to pass a team administered physical. Once he was cleared by Patriots officials, a trade was completed that sent Randy Moss to New England in exchange for a fourth-round selection in the 2007 NFL Draft. The draft pick had been acquired by the Patriots the previous day from the San Francisco 49ers, and the Raiders selected John Bowie.^[46]

 

I don't see how that could be worked out during the 1st round.

 

 

Um, Yes?  That's SOP for a trade.

 

 

That's one of the OP questions: exactly what Draft Day player trades do you recall?  So far I have examples of a trade for a late-round pick, and a trade that was discussed on Day 1 and involved the player flying in for a physical Day 2 before it was finalized for Day 3 (4th round). 

 

In horse trading, the SOP is that the horse buyer wants to look at the horse for himself.  I'm trading a valuable pick for a package including the player, Like Hell am I interested in medical records the trading team chooses to send me.  I want the player so my own employees, who (ought to) have some skin in the game of whether or not the player is fit, can have a look at him. 

 

I think there might be issues of medical confidentiality involved as well.  I don't think teams get to randomly throw players medical records around the league to other teams without the player's knowledge and consent, and if Glenn knew and consented, his agent knows and it would have likely come out by now.

 

There was 5 players involved in the Herschel Walker draft day trade. 

[SinceThe70s]

This goes back a few years but in 1993 the Phoenix Cardinals traded the 4th pick in the draft and RB Johnny Johnson to  the Jets for the 3rd pick in the draft. Cardinals selected RB Garrison Hearst, Jets took LB Marvin Jones.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

3 hours ago, SinceThe70s said:

This goes back a few years but in 1993 the Phoenix Cardinals traded the 4th pick in the draft and RB Johnny Johnson to  the Jets for the 3rd pick in the draft. Cardinals selected RB Garrison Hearst, Jets took LB Marvin Jones.

 

Wow!  I'm impressed you could find or recall that.....

....now that it's recalled to mind I do wonder what that was all about anyway?

[Cruiserplayer]

7 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Wow!  I'm impressed you could find or recall that.....

....now that it's recalled to mind I do wonder what that was all about anyway?

I googled 1993 Johnny Johnson trade and this popped up http://www.nytimes.com/1993/04/26/sports/pro-football-jets-trade-down-but-still-move-up.html

[SinceThe70s]

8 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Wow!  I'm impressed you could find or recall that.....

....now that it's recalled to mind I do wonder what that was all about anyway?

 

I remembered it was Johnny Johnson but had to look up the picks and drafted players. Cardinals wanted Garrison Hearst and the Jets wanted Marvin Jones. I guess by including JJ the Jets knew the Cardinals wouldn't steal Jones. So they got their guy and a starting RB. As I recall JJ was pretty good with the Cardinals but didn't do much with the Jets.

[BarleyNY]

20 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Right, so let's say we say "Cordy Glenn, or a 2018 1st".  Wouldn't the receiving team be all like "look, if you're willing to offer us a 1st how about you just do that deal instead?"  Or alternatively, it kind of leaves us in limbo because they can throw Glenn and his salary back at us and take our pick at their option. 

 

I would think that would be a bad deal for us, from a salary cap and draft capital management position.

 

The real issue it is that we aren’t going to get that much for Glenn on draft day.  We could probably get it from a desperate contender who has an injury at LT after the season starts.  That’s the time for premiums to be paid.  But not on draft day.  He’d go at a discount.  I do like that you’re trying to find a way to get a QB though.  I’d certainly sell out for one I believed in.  I just don’t see how the Bills can climb up to the top of this draft.  They’ll have to find another way to get one. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 minute ago, BarleyNY said:

The real issue it is that we aren’t going to get that much for Glenn on draft day.  We could probably get it from a desperate contender who has an injury at LT after the season starts.  That’s the time for premiums to be paid. 

 

Despite all the draft day proposals people float, we aren't going to get ANYTHING for Glenn on draft day.  Not for a guy who ended the season on IR and had surgery.  Teams are going to want a chance to bring him in and have their team physicians count his legs for themselves.  It only makes sense.

 

I also think it's chancy we get a decent in-season premium at Glenn's salary, though I agree that's the season, and his value will go up as soon as he shows back in form. But few teams have $9M in cap lying about.  They make that kind of room for a QB.  For an LT, they move players around for a while, play their backup, and hit the waiver wire.

 

For Glenn, the best chance would come for a pre-draft trade for a pick or as part of a pick swap.  Then package more picks on draft day.  There are a lot of teams with good QB and Kmart OLs as well as other holes.

[MAJBobby]

6 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Despite all the draft day proposals people float, we aren't going to get ANYTHING for Glenn on draft day.  Not for a guy who ended the season on IR and had surgery.  Teams are going to want a chance to bring him in and have their team physicians count his legs for themselves.  It only makes sense.

 

I also think it's chancy we get a decent in-season premium at Glenn's salary, though I agree that's the season, and his value will go up as soon as he shows back in form. But few teams have $9M in cap lying about.  They make that kind of room for a QB.  For an LT, they move players around for a while, play their backup, and hit the waiver wire.

 

For Glenn, the best chance would come for a pre-draft trade for a pick or as part of a pick swap.  Then package more picks on draft day.  There are a lot of teams with good QB and Kmart OLs as well as other holes.

 

But he wont be a 9M cap hit after trade. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, MAJBobby said:

 

But he wont be a 9M cap hit after trade. 

 

2018?  Why yes.  Yes he most certainly will.  After his roster bonus is paid, after trade.

[Green Lightning]

On 2/17/2018 at 10:58 AM, BarleyNY said:

Usually there’s an alternate compensation agreed upon should a traded player fail a physical. Player X or draft pick Y.  IIRC Chip Banks was originally included in the trade that netted the Browns Bernie Kosar in the supplemental draft.  He refused to report to San Diego and they got a first round pick instead. 

Beat me to it. But this is what I think would happen.

[MAJBobby]

4 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

2018?  Why yes.  Yes he most certainly will.  After his roster bonus is paid, after trade.

 

6 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

2018?  Why yes.  Yes he most certainly will.  After his roster bonus is paid, after trade.

 

Yep my bad. Did some bad math.