FearLess Price Posted January 27, 2018 Share Posted January 27, 2018 (edited) 10 minutes ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said: ....I'm taking the five starters unless you give me a MONEY (PICKS) BACK GUARANTEE/PICKS REFUND if your selection is NOT a "bonafide franchise QB".......care to review the list of "bonafide franchise QB's" selected in the 1st round over the last decade+?......HINT: the SUCCESSES will fit on ONE hand; the FAILURES may fit on both hands, both feet and your slide rule.....old?....yup....seasoned after 55 years following Bflo/NFL?....yup again........ Not all 1st round QBs pan out and solid examples can be made to support both sides of that argument. Weve taken those 5 starters 'theoretically' for the length of the drought and every lee evans, stephon gilmore, bob woods, preston brown, tj graham (lmao) could never make the same difference a solid QB prospect would. We have to take our shot now that we have the most draft capital we have had in years. Thats just my opinion, i want us to win, and we need a top of the line QB prospect to pick up the slack when the defense is getting manhandled. This might be our best shot to trade up for this regime. If its not for Darnold, Rosen, or Mayfield or even a Roquan Smith, I wouldn't want us to trade up this year. Edit: in other words Would you pick Gilmore, tj graham, woods, and Preston brown on your team Or would you rather have a Brees, Rothlisburger, Brady, Kelly, or Rodgers as QB? They could also blow the pick and draft Allen and let him become the new EJ Manuel. Edited January 27, 2018 by FearLess Price Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papazoid Posted January 27, 2018 Share Posted January 27, 2018 slim and none he's gone....beane tried to trade him last year he a solid starter but is grossly overpaid and injury prone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldTimeAFLGuy Posted January 27, 2018 Share Posted January 27, 2018 5 minutes ago, FearLess Price said: Not all 1st round QBs pan out and solid examples can be made to support both sides of that argument. Weve taken those 5 starters 'theoretically' for the length of the drought and every lee evans, stephon gilmore, bob woods, preston brown, tj graham (lmao) could never make the same difference a solid QB prospect would. We have to take our shot now that we have the most draft capital we have had in years. Thats just my opinion, i want us to win, and we need a top of the line QB prospect to pick up the slack when the defense is getting manhandled. This might be our best shot to trade up for this regime. If its not for Darnold, Rosen, or Mayfield or even a Roquan Smith, I wouldn't want us to trade up this year. Edit: in other words Would you pick Gilmore, tj graham, woods, and Preston brown on your team Or would you rather have a Brees, Rothlisburger, Brady, Kelly, or Rodgers as QB? They could also blow the pick and draft Allen and let him become the new EJ Manuel. ....first, let me say that I respect your opinions....that is EXACTLY how this place is supposed to work.........my concern is having a "solid QB prospect" and NOT having a strong supporting cast around him......can't see it as an "either or" proposition..........give me a solid QB prospect AND a solid supporting cast(includes running game IMO) and I think we're on the same page, right?.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FearLess Price Posted January 27, 2018 Share Posted January 27, 2018 1 minute ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said: ....first, let me say that I respect your opinions....that is EXACTLY how this place is supposed to work.........my concern is having a "solid QB prospect" and NOT having a strong supporting cast around him......can't see it as an "either or" proposition..........give me a solid QB prospect AND a solid supporting cast(includes running game IMO) and I think we're on the same page, right?.... Weve always been on the same page breh. We all want to win. I can def understand the supporting cast comment. We need young talent on the OL, and defensive front 7. The right talent and coaching around a rookie QB can make him thrive. Its almost like getting a ferrari but you have to keep it in the garage for a while cuz theres potholes on every block where you live, and you cant afford the insurance yet. The reason I cant get with build the supporting cast 1st method rite now, is cuz we have the capital to move up and grab a QB in a strong QB class, and still have picks left over to bring in young talent. I want us to take the shot while we have the draft capital to do it. Rite now we trade up for a QB without sacrificing a full draft for one player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billsfan89 Posted January 27, 2018 Share Posted January 27, 2018 He doesn't have much trade value. His contract is too big and he hasn't been healthy. But he is still a dam good player when he is out there. I think the Bills ask him to renegotiate his deal or cut him. Sadly cutting him would create another hole on the roster but he is a big ticket item and can't stay on the field in recent years, they have to lower that cap number or cut bait on him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldTimeAFLGuy Posted January 27, 2018 Share Posted January 27, 2018 (edited) 7 minutes ago, FearLess Price said: Weve always been on the same page breh. We all want to win. I can def understand the supporting cast comment. We need young talent on the OL, and defensive front 7. The right talent and coaching around a rookie QB can make him thrive. Its almost like getting a ferrari but you have to keep it in the garage for a while cuz theres potholes on every block where you live, and you cant afford the insurance yet. The reason I cant get with build the supporting cast 1st method rite now, is cuz we have the capital to move up and grab a QB in a strong QB class, and still have picks left over to bring in young talent. I want us to take the shot while we have the draft capital to do it. Rite now we trade up for a QB without sacrificing a full draft for one player. ...and the $64,000 question is how much to move how far?.......just a wild unsubstantiated hunch, but I don't see this gang as "riverboat gamblers" rolling BIG fuzzy dice to move up...see them more as conservatively coveting their draft capital and probably pissing many TBD pundits off by taking the safe but perhaps unsexy pick Rudolph at 21/22.....what is your assessment on the kid?... Edited January 27, 2018 by OldTimeAFLGuy 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted January 27, 2018 Share Posted January 27, 2018 (edited) 45 minutes ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said: ....I'm taking the five starters unless you give me a MONEY (PICKS) BACK GUARANTEE/PICKS REFUND if your selection is NOT a "bonafide franchise QB".......care to review the list of "bonafide franchise QB's" selected in the 1st round over the last decade+?......HINT: the SUCCESSES will fit on ONE hand; the FAILURES may fit on both hands, both feet and your slide rule.....old?....yup....seasoned after 55 years following Bflo/NFL?....yup again........ I know a little bit about the success/failure rate of 1st round draftee QB in the last decade. To have meaningful discussion, you're going to have to define what you mean by "bonafide franchise QB". Are you talking Brady, Brees, Rodgers, Roethlisberger? Or are you talking a guy who consistently gives you a chance to win and has a chance to come through in the clutch? Then, what pick are we trading up to? Both matter; in general the claim that the successes of 1st round QB fit on one hand and the failures both hand, both feet and your slide rule doesn't wash. That would be something between 4% and 24% success, and it's better than that, especially over the last decade. Quote ....understood, but the cap is going up again by about $14mil.......so is the delay that critical?....signing the draft class pre June 1 should be a non-issue.....could affect FA signings but brab your priorities first with monies available and then see what values may still be left.....just a random thought........... Where do you get this $14M figure? The cap last year was $167M. The optimistic projection for the cap this year is $178M. (that number is from SI, USA today, OTC etc). I have not found a higher figure anywhere, so $11M increase max, possibly only $7M increase per some sources? Yeah, could be higher than $11M but could be lower too. Using the higher figure, we currently have $39.5M in cap. Wood just knocked it down to $29.5M. It's not awful, but yeah, depending upon what they want to do, it could get tight. If they cut Taylor and trade Glenn, I believe that puts us down to ~$10M, which is not a lot of money to sign FA and rookies. You take less cap hit if you make Glenn post-June 1 but then you still have him on the books for $14.5M until then, which puts us at $6M or so. All this back of the envelope (what's a million or two between football friends ) but you get the gist? Edited January 27, 2018 by Hapless Bills Fan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SDS Posted January 27, 2018 Share Posted January 27, 2018 [This is an automated response]As a courtesy to the other board members, please use more descriptive topic titles. A single name if far too vague to post as a title and provides little insight into what specifically the post is talking about.The topic starter can edit the topic title line to make it more appropriate.Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldTimeAFLGuy Posted January 27, 2018 Share Posted January 27, 2018 3 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: I know a little bit about the success/failure rate of 1st round draftee QB in the last decade. To have meaningful discussion, you're going to have to define what you mean by "bonafide franchise QB". Are you talking Brady, Brees, Rodgers, Roethlisberger? Or are you talking a guy who consistently gives you a chance to win and has a chance to come through in the clutch? Then, what pick are we trading up to? Both matter; in general the claim that the successes of 1st round QB fit on one hand and the failures both hand, both feet and your slide rule doesn't wash. That would be something between 4% and 24% success, and it's better than that, especially over the last decade. Where do you get this $14M figure? The cap last year was $167M. The optimistic projection for the cap this year is $178M. (that number is from SI, USA today, OTC etc). I have not found a higher figure anywhere, so $11M increase max, possibly only $7M increase per some sources? Yeah, could be higher than $11M but could be lower too. Using the higher figure, we currently have $39.5M in cap. Wood just knocked it down to $29.5M. It's not awful, but yeah, depending upon what they want to do, it could get tight. If they cut Taylor and trade Glenn, I believe that puts us down to ~$10M, which is not a lot of money to sign FA and rookies. You take less cap hit if you make Glenn post-June 1 but then you still have him on the books for $14.5M until then, which puts us at $6M or so. All this back of the envelope (what's a million or two between football friends ) but you get the gist? ...14 came from my woefully failing memory (BUT I did pay my AARP dues)......HAP, I have NO definition for a "bonafide franchise QB", a "franchise QB" or an "elite QB"...I was merely responding to another poster's reference ...come up with those and you'll put Funk & Wagnalls outta business....and I certainly agree with the question as to "what pick we are trading up to" which should be followed by how we plug OTHER holes surrendering major draft capital......I'll leave that to you....is cutting Glenn a wise move or is there a trade market for him with questionable health?...is it better IF surgery was successful to keep him and move him to RT?.....if he performs and is healthy, is he a more viable trade option in 2019?....as far as TT, what if he agreed to restructure and was in the mix with your 1st round draft pick and Peterman, would you do it?.........I can't find my abacus so you have plenty of homework to do and I'll be waiting... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Who Posted January 27, 2018 Share Posted January 27, 2018 1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: They can designate 2 players as post June 1 cuts and defer some of the cap hit to the following year. The catch is, if you designate a player post-June 1, you don't free up the cap until June 1 so it doesn't help with FA signings, signing the draft class, etc. It allows you to trade or sign a player over the summer, though, but that limits your options. Thanks. Very clear and helpful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted January 27, 2018 Share Posted January 27, 2018 If he’s healthy, he stays. It’s a no brainer to keep a quality OT and get your best five on the field. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
USABuffaloFan Posted January 27, 2018 Share Posted January 27, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, Pete said: Is there any chance Cordy Glenn stays? Is he healthy? What trade value does he have? Quality LT are in high demand, and many teams are lacking. What compensation would we receive? Draft pick? Is Lorenzo gone? It seems that way. Why? Now that Wood is a Cap hit they will need to trade Glenn, Dawkins is the starter. Going to have to draft a Center, Bradley Bozeman from Alabama, played under OC and will cost very little the first 2 years compared to a Freeagent. I could see Groy at RG and a new RT brought in. Expect moving up for a QB is out of the question now because we also need to get a good young LB for the middle. Wood was good but not sure he was worth that kind of guaranteed money with 3 broken legs, though now it looks like he at least was a very smart man! Edited January 27, 2018 by USABuffaloFan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
USABuffaloFan Posted January 27, 2018 Share Posted January 27, 2018 (edited) 52 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: I know a little bit about the success/failure rate of 1st round draftee QB in the last decade. To have meaningful discussion, you're going to have to define what you mean by "bonafide franchise QB". Are you talking Brady, Brees, Rodgers, Roethlisberger? Or are you talking a guy who consistently gives you a chance to win and has a chance to come through in the clutch? Then, what pick are we trading up to? Both matter; in general the claim that the successes of 1st round QB fit on one hand and the failures both hand, both feet and your slide rule doesn't wash. That would be something between 4% and 24% success, and it's better than that, especially over the last decade. Where do you get this $14M figure? The cap last year was $167M. The optimistic projection for the cap this year is $178M. (that number is from SI, USA today, OTC etc). I have not found a higher figure anywhere, so $11M increase max, possibly only $7M increase per some sources? Yeah, could be higher than $11M but could be lower too. Using the higher figure, we currently have $39.5M in cap. Wood just knocked it down to $29.5M. It's not awful, but yeah, depending upon what they want to do, it could get tight. If they cut Taylor and trade Glenn, I believe that puts us down to ~$10M, which is not a lot of money to sign FA and rookies. You take less cap hit if you make Glenn post-June 1 but then you still have him on the books for $14.5M until then, which puts us at $6M or so. All this back of the envelope (what's a million or two between football friends ) but you get the gist? If you trade Glenn the new team gets the cap hits. They could trade Taylor too, he is cap friendly for a team that likes him, Cleveland?. 2 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: I think you're overlooking something in the impact of the Wood situation. With Wood being forced to retire from a football-related condition, injury guarantees will almost certainly apply and the Bills are gonna take a $10M cap hit. If they trade or cut Glenn this year, the Bills save less than $4M while taking almost another $10M cap hit. Frankly, they can't afford that while Dareus is still on the books. Glenn stays. Darieus is gone. 1 hour ago, papazoid said: slim and none he's gone....beane tried to trade him last year he a solid starter but is grossly overpaid and injury prone Bills wanted something back before when trying to trade, now will be a salary dump like Darieus was. I think Seattle is still interested and we would want probably 6-7 pick. Even Cleveland has to fill cap to 85% or get fined. they have 12 picks. It would not be hard to trade a LT that makes $10.5 mil, that is cap friendly for a starter. Edited January 27, 2018 by USABuffaloFan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted January 27, 2018 Share Posted January 27, 2018 1 hour ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said: ...14 came from my woefully failing memory (BUT I did pay my AARP dues)......HAP, I have NO definition for a "bonafide franchise QB", a "franchise QB" or an "elite QB"...I was merely responding to another poster's reference ...come up with those and you'll put Funk & Wagnalls outta business....and I certainly agree with the question as to "what pick we are trading up to" which should be followed by how we plug OTHER holes surrendering major draft capital......I'll leave that to you....is cutting Glenn a wise move or is there a trade market for him with questionable health?...is it better IF surgery was successful to keep him and move him to RT?.....if he performs and is healthy, is he a more viable trade option in 2019?....as far as TT, what if he agreed to restructure and was in the mix with your 1st round draft pick and Peterman, would you do it?.........I can't find my abacus so you have plenty of homework to do and I'll be waiting... Alas for you and your abacus, I only do homework that interests me now a days. I kinda feel like I've made my arguments several times elsewhere so Peace Out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldTimeAFLGuy Posted January 27, 2018 Share Posted January 27, 2018 3 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: Alas for you and your abacus, I only do homework that interests me now a days. I kinda feel like I've made my arguments several times elsewhere so Peace Out ...slide rule is acceptable........... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kwai San Posted January 27, 2018 Share Posted January 27, 2018 3 hours ago, FearLess Price said: Are you taking a shot at me? Lets be clear cuz i have a lot of ether in the tank... No shots....I was digging the 420..... 3 hours ago, kdiggz said: Why yes - yes I am..... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurker Posted January 27, 2018 Share Posted January 27, 2018 I'd like to keep Glenn if he gets checked out medically. Up until the final games of 2016, when the foot injury hit, he was among the upper tier of OTs. With the loss of Wood, letting Cordy go gives you an the OL essentially anchored by a second year up and comer (Dawkins) and an effective but slowly declining vet (Incognito). The other three positions are absolute question marks, and not very good ones at that. A healthy Glenn would be a major addition to that line, more than anything they could get back in a salary dump and/or trade package, IMO... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thurst44 Posted January 27, 2018 Share Posted January 27, 2018 4 hours ago, BfloBillsFan said: What are the ramifications to the Bills cap because of this? The cap hit is a difference of about 1.5-2m and they are well under the cap, so will probably not have that much impact in the scheme of things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdand12 Posted January 27, 2018 Share Posted January 27, 2018 4 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: I think you're overlooking something in the impact of the Wood situation. With Wood being forced to retire from a football-related condition, injury guarantees will almost certainly apply and the Bills are gonna take a $10M cap hit. If they trade or cut Glenn this year, the Bills save less than $4M while taking almost another $10M cap hit. Frankly, they can't afford that while Dareus is still on the books. Glenn stays. I agree with the post. and thanks for the details. What if Glenn is still iffy with his health issues. Not going to get much in trade. In your opinion does Beane dump him in trade ? Certainly cannot cut him as you made clear. Thing for me is, I strongly want a healthy Cordy Glenn on my Bills team. If there is hope he can return to form? He absolutely should remain. 3 hours ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said: ...and the $64,000 question is how much to move how far?.......just a wild unsubstantiated hunch, but I don't see this gang as "riverboat gamblers" rolling BIG fuzzy dice to move up...see them more as conservatively coveting their draft capital and probably pissing many TBD pundits off by taking the safe but perhaps unsexy pick Rudolph at 21/22.....what is your assessment on the kid?... Not this year at any rate. They likely want to fill the trenches first. they need some starters from this offseason, some hits via draft. And develop more quality depth and quality at nearly every position. Might be another quiet FA. But i do expect it to be smarter and more refined that last year Cordy Glenn I might keep as a rotational T for one more season even if they want to move on from his contract 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FearLess Price Posted January 27, 2018 Share Posted January 27, 2018 5 hours ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said: ...and the $64,000 question is how much to move how far?.......just a wild unsubstantiated hunch, but I don't see this gang as "riverboat gamblers" rolling BIG fuzzy dice to move up...see them more as conservatively coveting their draft capital and probably pissing many TBD pundits off by taking the safe but perhaps unsexy pick Rudolph at 21/22.....what is your assessment on the kid?... Ive watched Rudolphs tape. He can make the throws but it also looked like a lot of 1 read throws to guys that were schemed open. Ive seen him make progressions before so i know he can, the question is to what level. The questions about his arm strength and velocity on throws is left to someone more knowledgeable on that If you watch Mayfields tape you can see him going throuh multiple progressions consistently. Thats one of the reasons why I would draft him before Rudolph. I would be ok if we stayed pat at #21 & #22 and took Rudolph with one of those picks. I would troll and riot to no end if we trade up for Allen or take a later round QB like weve done for the passed few drafts. Taking the best quarterback available at 21 and using the rest of the picks to fill out the depth chart is the most likely scenario, I still hope we trade up tho. 2 hours ago, Kwai San said: No shots....I was digging the 420..... Why yes - yes I am..... I can light up to that 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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