Daboll's preferred offense and QB.

[ddaryl]

I prefer fresh threads over 20 page long reads myself...

 

I think we will grab a vet whom is a crap shoot right now until the tags are dolled outr.. We also will draft a QB.. Depending on which FA we pick up it oculd be a move up and grab a top QB sit where we are and grap one with out picks in the 1st or wait and pick up a day 2 or 3 guy who would comepte with Peterman to be the a possible successor.

 

I don't think anyone wants to keep their eggs in the Peterman basket alone..

[Tatonka68]

I don't think we trade for Alex Smith unless it's at garage sale prices, AJ McCarron is possible but same rules apply as to Alex Smith. Bradford should be cheap. I believe they are in on Petermen long term, as they played him in LA. And they did say they want a veteran presence in locker room so I doubt they would go with a rookie and Petermen, especially since the Bills made the playoffs this year. 

Edited January 16, 2018 by Tatonka68

[Hapless Bills Fan]

22 minutes ago, Tatonka68 said:

Thread is more about QB than OC, so I thought it was worth a new thread as I believe new OC points the path they are taking in a QB.

 

Fair enough.  So to contribute, E-P offenses have been run successfully with quite a range of quarterbacks.  Belicheck may (not sure) be the first who recognized its potential to support a high powered, sophisticated passing game, and it's evolved during Brady's 16 yr tenure from a run-first (or balanced run-pass) offense to what it is today (actually, it seems to vary cyclically depending on their current RBs and WR).

 

The Steelers (since 2004) and Panthers (since 2013) are two other successful, prominent examples of teams running E-P systems, as were the Giants (2004-2013) during some of Eli Manning's most successful years (5 playoff appearances, 2 SB wins).

 

I think the point is, it's a system that can be run successfully with a number of different styles of QB play, from classic pocket passer to guy who can run.

 

I wouldn't expect the offensive system to affect their draft choices too much, but if they want a vet to anchor the QB room for a rookie, I would expect them to look for a vet who has had some success in an EP system (if they want the vet to be "the man", I think they'd just look for a guy who's still mentally flexible)

 

Cousins and Smith have played (afaik) entirely in WC systems. 

 

 

30 minutes ago, kdiggz said:

i was being facetious

 

I don't like the hire because I wanted someone with a complex NFL level passing attack.  I realize we don't have the QB for that but I want to dream that we could find one.  Hopefully once they do we can get a new OC

 

Erm....most of Daboll's experience in the NFL is with New England.  If they don't run a complex NFL level passing attack, who does?

[KDIGGZ]

3 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

Erm....most of Daboll's experience in the NFL is with New England.  If they don't run a complex NFL level passing attack, who does?

as the TE coach, pretty much the lowest spot on the offensive totem pole besides the guys they pay to deflate the footballs

[Hapless Bills Fan]

33 minutes ago, YoloinOhio said:

I agree, TT isn’t Daboll’s style of QB

 

It actually occurred to me that one argument underpinning the Dennison hire was a decision to renegotiate TT's contract. 

The (paper-based) logic may have been, he's been in a WCO system his entire career, let's give him a WCO coordinator who has worked with him before as his "best chance" and see what he's got.  On paper, it wasn't an illogical notion.

 

Keep in mind that E-P has the flexibility to adjust from being a run-heavy to a pass-heavy offense and that the Panthers run it with Newton.

 

That said, I would be very sad if we don't make a serious play to upgrade at QB, and if you want a backup/bit player who can fill in any time you generally pick him to already know your system or have some experience in similar.

 

6 minutes ago, kdiggz said:

as the TE coach, pretty much the lowest spot on the offensive totem pole besides the guys they pay to deflate the footballs

 

I guess that types out as a great 'sound bite' but in New England, I'm not sure that's true.  Who is the second most important player on the team, and is he a bright bulb who can coach himself, or is he the kind of guy who probably takes some coaching?  But the point is, Daboll's major experience is with an E-P system implemented as a high-powered passing attack.

Edited January 16, 2018 by Hapless Bills Fan

[Coach Tuesday]

31 minutes ago, kdiggz said:

as the TE coach, pretty much the lowest spot on the offensive totem pole besides the guys they pay to deflate the footballs

 

You're such a bipolar poster - at times you're amazing, at other times we get garbage like this.

Edited January 16, 2018 by Coach Tuesday

[Rubes]

36 minutes ago, kdiggz said:

as the TE coach, pretty much the lowest spot on the offensive totem pole besides the guys they pay to deflate the footballs

 

Mark Gaughan's article would argue pretty nicely against this perspective, as have other articles.

 

Edited January 16, 2018 by Rubes

[Coach Tuesday]

Just now, Rubes said:

 

Mark Gaughan's article would argue pretty nicely against this perspective, as have other articles.

 

 

Such a ridiculous comment he made.  The TE coach in New England is by no means at the bottom rung of the ladder, and in any event there is a mountain of evidence that Belichick viewed Daboll as integral.

[KDIGGZ]

1 minute ago, Coach Tuesday said:

 

You're such a bipolar poster - at times you're amazing, at other times we get garbage like this.

the truth is like that unfortunately.  when people agree with it they are ok but when it goes against the grain then people get upset.  i have to post my true feelings so sometimes it's going to rub people the wrong way.  sometimes the truth hurts and it's unfortunate because i love this team.  i posted similar things when they hired Dennison and we saw how that turned out.  Dennison was the assistant to the guy with the mediocre offense, a system in which Tyrod was not suited for.  it was pretty obvious what the outcome would be.  Tyrod would actually be better with Daboll but we are getting rid of him.  I see Daboll as a bridge OC until we get a real QB, at which point we can then hopefully implement a real NFL passing attack, so it is what it is until then i guess.  i have very low expectations for this offense in 2018 as a result

[YoloinOhio]

3 minutes ago, kdiggz said:

the truth is like that unfortunately.  when people agree with it they are ok but when it goes against the grain then people get upset.  i have to post my true feelings so sometimes it's going to rub people the wrong way.  sometimes the truth hurts and it's unfortunate because i love this team.  i posted similar things when they hired Dennison and we saw how that turned out.  Dennison was the assistant to the guy with the mediocre offense, a system in which Tyrod was not suited for.  it was pretty obvious what the outcome would be.  Tyrod would actually be better with Daboll but we are getting rid of him.  I see Daboll as a bridge OC until we get a real QB, at which point we can then hopefully implement a real NFL passing attack, so it is what it is until then i guess.  i have very low expectations for this offense in 2018 as a result

Why?

[Coach Tuesday]

2 minutes ago, kdiggz said:

the truth is like that unfortunately.  when people agree with it they are ok but when it goes against the grain then people get upset.  i have to post my true feelings so sometimes it's going to rub people the wrong way.  sometimes the truth hurts and it's unfortunate because i love this team.  i posted similar things when they hired Dennison and we saw how that turned out.  Dennison was the assistant to the guy with the mediocre offense, a system in which Tyrod was not suited for.  it was pretty obvious what the outcome would be.  Tyrod would actually be better with Daboll but we are getting rid of him.  I see Daboll as a bridge OC until we get a real QB, at which point we can then hopefully implement a real NFL passing attack, so it is what it is until then i guess.  i have very low expectations for this offense in 2018 as a result

 

No doubt the guy may faceplant.  But it gives me hope that he is a grinder who understands what all of the positions are supposed to be doing, has focused on QB development, is happy to be in Buffalo, and (in theory) will adapt his scheme to the personnel.  Let's just wait and see what the results are?

[Hapless Bills Fan]

4 minutes ago, kdiggz said:

the truth is like that unfortunately.  when people agree with it they are ok but when it goes against the grain then people get upset.  i have to post my true feelings so sometimes it's going to rub people the wrong way.  sometimes the truth hurts and it's unfortunate because i love this team.  i posted similar things when they hired Dennison and we saw how that turned out.  Dennison was the assistant to the guy with the mediocre offense, a system in which Tyrod was not suited for.  it was pretty obvious what the outcome would be.  Tyrod would actually be better with Daboll but we are getting rid of him.  I see Daboll as a bridge OC until we get a real QB, at which point we can then hopefully implement a real NFL passing attack, so it is what it is until then i guess.  i have very low expectations for this offense in 2018 as a result

 

Truth.  You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

 

Please defend the "truth" of the statement "Tyrod would actually be better with Daboll" aside from the generic, a QB with a limited specific skill set will be better with an OC who will tailor the offense to his talents than with one who will not (or can not)

 

[fridge]

21 hours ago, jr1 said:

the Bills used this multiple times already https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_England_Patriots_strategy#NFL_teams_that_used_the_Erhardt-Perkins_offense

 

Shhh. Let them think we’re getting something shiny and new.

[YoloinOhio]

5 minutes ago, fridge said:

 

Shhh. Let them think we’re getting something shiny and new.

Not sure what you mean...how shiny and new is any offensive system? It’s either WCO, E-P or Air Coryelle conceptually. Every offense is rooted in one of these three. Then it is developed from there around scheme and personnel. spread concepts getting mixed in from college offenses are the new wave, but no one is going to run a true college spread in the nfl because you can’t feasibly run the QB the much. 

Edited January 16, 2018 by YoloinOhio

[H2o]

1 hour ago, SlamnSam said:

When you start out with that statement you are basically saying you are a d*ck. Let the guy post as he wishes. Unless of course you have been designated the thread duplication D*ck.

 

You know what they say about opinions and what they are likened too?  .............That time, maybe that time I was being a bit of a sarcastic d*ck. 

[26CornerBlitz]

23 hours ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

3 hours ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

1-15: Joshua Chatham, Roll Bama Roll, Talks about Brian Daboll with Sal Capaccio (13:08)

Really good interview from yesterday that gives excellent insight into Daboll's season as Saban's OC at Bama.

 

2 hours ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

1-16: Soren Petro of WHB 810 AM in Kansas City with Howard and Jeremy on Brian Daboll (10:40)

Another excellent interview with Petro going in-depth about Daboll's time in KC as the OC wrt scheme and personnel.  He also gave excellent insight into Alex Smith regarding what kind of QB he is and how much he's worth with respect to trade value/draft picks.

 

Additional insight into Daboll from the pinned thread. 

[KDIGGZ]

Just now, YoloinOhio said:

Why?

in Dennison's system it is all about footwork.  1-2-3 throw.  there's no improvisation or guess work.  the guy breaks at the same time your back foot plants and you are throwing before you see he is open.  Tyrod is completely incapable of running that type of offense because 1) poor footwork 2) needs to see the receiver open before he is willing to throw.  Tyrod is like a backyard QB who wants to scramble around and make big plays when all you need is the simple play.  it was never going to work.

 

In Daboll's system, at least at Bama, they do a lot of power read.  Off that you can run play action and roll outs.  You are reading the opposite side backer/end and if he gets sucked inside there's a lot you can do off of that including option or waggle.  Tyrod prefers to be out of the pocket so 1) he can see 2) he can attack the line of scrimmage.  by rolling out or moving the pocket he is in his comfort zone to make plays.  The passing tree combos are also very basic and leaves a lot open for improvisation.  It's not timing based and there's only a few concepts to learn.  It was a much better system for Tyrod to be in but now he's going bye bye

33 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Truth.  You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

 

Please defend the "truth" of the statement "Tyrod would actually be better with Daboll" aside from the generic, a QB with a limited specific skill set will be better with an OC who will tailor the offense to his talents than with one who will not (or can not)

 

please see the above.  i've run different styles of both and at the very least have been taught the basics of them all

[Hapless Bills Fan]

4 minutes ago, kdiggz said:

in Dennison's system it is all about footwork.  1-2-3 throw.  there's no improvisation or guess work.  the guy breaks at the same time your back foot plants and you are throwing before you see he is open.  Tyrod is completely incapable of running that type of offense because 1) poor footwork 2) needs to see the receiver open before he is willing to throw.  Tyrod is like a backyard QB who wants to scramble around and make big plays when all you need is the simple play.  it was never going to work.

 

In Daboll's system, at least at Bama, they do a lot of power read.  Off that you can run play action and roll outs.  You are reading the opposite side backer/end and if he gets sucked inside there's a lot you can do off of that including option or waggle.  Tyrod prefers to be out of the pocket so 1) he can see 2) he can attack the line of scrimmage.  by rolling out or moving the pocket he is in his comfort zone to make plays.  The passing tree combos are also very basic and leaves a lot open for improvisation.  It's not timing based and there's only a few concepts to learn.  It was a much better system for Tyrod to be in but now he's going bye bye

please see the above.  i've run different styles of both and at the very least have been taught the basics of them all

 

Thanks, good explanation, and appreciate it.  Not sure Daboll will run what he did in Bama, here.

 

It doesn't justify claiming Daboll as TE coach in NE was just above ball boy, represents some kind of truth.  That word still doesn't mean what you think it means in that context.

 

I don't think it's a "done deal" that Tyrod goes bye-bye.  I think it depends upon what our real choices at QB roll out to be.  Maybe one attraction of Daboll is, if the choice of QB turns out to be late-1st-round rookie and TT dueling with low-tier FA, they feel he can make something with that.

58 minutes ago, Rubes said:

 

Mark Gaughan's article would argue pretty nicely against this perspective, as have other articles.

 

 

It does discourage me when I click on a nice juicy link and run into a paywall.  Alas I refuse to pay for the privilege of reading Gleason and Sullivan's stuff, whatever good stuff they may have besides.

 

 

[KDIGGZ]

Just now, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Thanks, good explanation, and appreciate it.  Not sure Daboll will run what he did in Bama, here.

 

It doesn't justify claiming Daboll as TE coach in NE was just above ball boy, represents some kind of truth.  That word still doesn't mean what you think it means in that context.

 

I don't think it's a "done deal" that Tyrod goes bye-bye.  I think it depends upon what our real choices at QB roll out to be.  Maybe one attraction of Daboll is, if the choice of QB turns out to be late-1st-round rookie and TT dueling with low-tier FA, they feel he can make something with that.

Daboll learned what he knows from Charlie Weis and has limited experience and success.  I'm not sure why they didn't just hire Charlie Weis. Belichick and Saban are butt buddies so it made sense when Daboll ended up there and was obviously not their first choice as OC but then Kiffin left (on bad terms) and they needed someone quick and Daboll had NFL experience so it was an obvious choice.  I don't see him as any kind of great up and coming coordinator though and he has yet to show any kind of creativity or genius.  I'm not too thrilled but again we don't have a QB anyhow so I understand why they wanted a power run game coordinator and they will figure out the passing part later

[YoloinOhio]

22 minutes ago, kdiggz said:

in Dennison's system it is all about footwork.  1-2-3 throw.  there's no improvisation or guess work.  the guy breaks at the same time your back foot plants and you are throwing before you see he is open.  Tyrod is completely incapable of running that type of offense because 1) poor footwork 2) needs to see the receiver open before he is willing to throw.  Tyrod is like a backyard QB who wants to scramble around and make big plays when all you need is the simple play.  it was never going to work.

 

In Daboll's system, at least at Bama, they do a lot of power read.  Off that you can run play action and roll outs.  You are reading the opposite side backer/end and if he gets sucked inside there's a lot you can do off of that including option or waggle.  Tyrod prefers to be out of the pocket so 1) he can see 2) he can attack the line of scrimmage.  by rolling out or moving the pocket he is in his comfort zone to make plays.  The passing tree combos are also very basic and leaves a lot open for improvisation.  It's not timing based and there's only a few concepts to learn.  It was a much better system for Tyrod to be in but now he's going bye bye

please see the above.  i've run different styles of both and at the very least have been taught the basics of them all

Daboll was able to adjust to Hurts out of necessity with the help of Locksley, but that’s not his system and not what he wants to do. Hurts never developed as a passer with that approach and it only works until you meet a good defense with on par athletes. 

 

Could Daboll get more out of TT than Denison did? Possibly, but they want more than what they got when they had Roman/ Lynn trying that. It’s time to rip the band aid off and move on. I highly doubt Daboll wants to work with TT, but, I’ve been wrong before and may be again.

Edited January 16, 2018 by YoloinOhio