The Last Play against the Bucs - illegal?

[Big Turk]

 

 

Who would argue that lateraling the ball is a fumble? But if it hits the ground, what else is it?

It is a fumble and a lateral...I think the rule is poorly worded and must be contradicted elsewhere...

[BarleyNY]

On Monday morning, one of the talk radio shows was talking about the impact of the multiple fumbles on that play. They indicated the Bucs were recorded as having 4, I think on that play.

Excellent points by you and Bison. Since the NFL considers the laterals that hit the ground fumbles, then the refs should have blown the play dead after the first recovery. I’ve seen it happen before on this kind of play so it wasn’t just this game or this set of refs. The NFL needs to correct it. There’s no reason to allow a play like this to continue since the injury risk is high (coughPoyercough) and blowing the play dead after the ball hits the ground and is first recovered is the right way to do that. They don’t even have to change any rules, they just have to properly enforce the ones they have.

[seregil42]

Excellent points by you and Bison. Since the NFL considers the laterals that hit the ground fumbles, then the refs should have blown the play dead after the first recovery. I’ve seen it happen before on this kind of play so it wasn’t just this game or this set of refs. The NFL needs to correct it. There’s no reason to allow a play like this to continue since the injury risk is high (coughPoyercough) and blowing the play dead after the ball hits the ground and is first recovered is the right way to do that. They don’t even have to change any rules, they just have to properly enforce the ones they have.

The rules state that in the event of a lateral, even if the ball hits the ground, any player (offensive and defensive) can advance the ball. I think it's more considered a live ball then a fumble (like a ball that hasn't been touched on a kickoff).

[BarleyNY]

The rules state that in the event of a lateral, even if the ball hits the ground, any player (offensive and defensive) can advance the ball. I think it's more considered a live ball then a fumble (like a ball that hasn't been touched on a kickoff).

 

Thats true except in the last 2 minutes of the game. The NFL counted the laterals that hit the ground as fumbles, so theyre fumbles. Any fumble in the last two minutes of a half cant be advanced by any offensive player except the one who fumbled. So the play should have been blown dead after the first recovery per rule.

 

I dont think anyone would argue that a QB pitching the ball to a RB and having it hit the ground is a fumble. Ditto that any lateral that would hit the ground on any given play is a fumble. If the NFL wanted to call it something else, then the refs would have to use their judgement to determine intent during the play. Thats not always as easy as in this one and would impact the end of the 1st half as well. One minute left in the first half and as the RB gets tackled the ball comes out, rolls backwards and another offensive player picks it up and runs it in for a TD. By rule now that ball is dead at the recovery spot regardless of why it came out. I wouldnt want the refs to have to determine if it was a fumble (spot of recovery) or lateral attempt (touchdown). The game doesnt need that.

Edited October 27, 2017 by BarleyNY

[BisonMan]

Thats true except in the last 2 minutes of the game. The NFL counted the laterals that hit the ground as fumbles, so theyre fumbles. Any fumble in the last two minutes of a half cant be advanced by any offensive player except the one who fumbled. So the play should have been blown dead after the first recovery per rule.

I dont think anyone would argue that a QB pitching the ball to a RB and having it hit the ground is a fumble. Ditto that any lateral that would hit the ground on any given play is a fumble. If the NFL wanted to call it something else, then the refs would have to use their judgement to determine intent during the play. Thats not always as easy as in this one and would impact the end of the 1st half as well. One minute left in the first half and as the RB gets tackled the ball comes out, rolls backwards and another offensive player picks it up and runs it in for a TD. By rule now that ball is dead at the recovery spot regardless of why it came out. I wouldnt want the refs to have to determine if it was a fumble (spot of recovery) or lateral attempt (touchdown). The game doesnt need that.

This was exactly my thinking as I screamed at the TV during the play for the refs to blow the whistle. It happened several times on that play (as noted) that I couldn't imagine the refs being that incompetent and that I must not understand the rules on laterals/fumbles. If the refs are that clueless on a type of play that happens at the end of a lot of one-score games, the NFL really needs to stage an intervention with the officiating crews. The risk of injury is just way too high on a disjointed play like this where players are coming at each other from all sorts of non-typical directions. This is the ultimate "head on a swivel" play for defenders.

 

If the Bucs had scored, this play would have gone to review. If over-ruled (as I think it would have been), it would have been a total black eye for the league. Again, looking at the Bills/Packers game, the refs immediately blew the whistle when a Packer recovered the fumble. So, the refs are trained for traditional looking fumbles, just not for bounced laterals.

 

EdW

[Drey]

Per the NFL rules in Section 7 - Backward Pass and Fumble

 

https://operations.nfl.com/the-rules/2017-nfl-rulebook/#section-7-backward-pass-and-fumble

 

Article 1 Backward Pass. A runner may throw a backward pass at any time (3-22-4). Players of either team may advance after catching a backward pass, or recovering a backward pass after it touches the ground.

 

Article 3 Fumble. A fumble is any act, other than a pass or kick, which results in a loss of player possession.

 

My interpretation is that since a lateral is a backward pass, when it hits the ground it isn't a fumble since a fumble is any act other than a pass or kick.

 

[Antonio]

Doesn't that only apply to balls fumbled forward, a la the Raiders Holy Roller play?

 

Yep, exactly!

[Charles Romes]

The upshot from this thread is that it looks like a team can replicate the holy roller by throwing it on the ground backward and not forward when you are close to scoring a touchdown. It's only a matter of time until a someone tries to do what the bucs did but inside the red zone.

Edited October 27, 2017 by Charles Romes

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

Excellent points by you and Bison. Since the NFL considers the laterals that hit the ground fumbles, then the refs should have blown the play dead after the first recovery. I’ve seen it happen before on this kind of play so it wasn’t just this game or this set of refs. The NFL needs to correct it. There’s no reason to allow a play like this to continue since the injury risk is high (coughPoyercough) and blowing the play dead after the ball hits the ground and is first recovered is the right way to do that. They don’t even have to change any rules, they just have to properly enforce the ones they have.

to be fair I just heard some jamoke say it on the radio, and at that, I was wrong on the number. I give myself an 80, bumped to 85 on the curve.

[YattaOkasan]

Per the NFL rules in Section 7 - Backward Pass and Fumble

 

https://operations.nfl.com/the-rules/2017-nfl-rulebook/#section-7-backward-pass-and-fumble

 

Article 1 Backward Pass. A runner may throw a backward pass at any time (3-22-4). Players of either team may advance after catching a backward pass, or recovering a backward pass after it touches the ground.

 

Article 3 Fumble. A fumble is any act, other than a pass or kick, which results in a loss of player possession.

 

My interpretation is that since a lateral is a backward pass, when it hits the ground it isn't a fumble since a fumble is any act other than a pass or kick.

 

 

So I actually read this opposite. You need to catch a backward pass in order to advance. Anyone can recover a backward pass after it touches the the ground, but it seems not advance. There is a note under article 1 about backwards passes that hit the ground but remain live balls (A direct snap from center in the backfield, a muffed hand-to-hand snap, or a snap that is untouched by any player are backward passes, and the ball remains alive.).

 

Based on this and the other comments on laterals being fumbles I don't think it could be advanced.

Edited October 27, 2017 by YattaOkasan

[Drunken Pygmy Goat]

So I actually read this opposite. You need to catch a backward pass in order to advance. Anyone can recover a backward pass after it touches the the ground, but it seems not advance. There is a note under article 1 about backwards passes that hit the ground but remain live balls (A direct snap from center in the backfield, a muffed hand-to-hand snap, or a snap that is untouched by any player are backward passes, and the ball remains alive.).

 

Based on this and the other comments on laterals being fumbles I don't think it could be advanced.

It says in the rule that was posted earlier (that you quoted) that players from either team can advance the ball on a lateral that hits the ground.

[BisonMan]

It says in the rule that was posted earlier (that you quoted) that players from either team can advance the ball on a lateral that hits the ground.

Either team can normally advance fumbles as well. This does not account for the rule on advancing a fumble in the last 2 minutes, which is not allowed.

[Tuco]

The rules are not ambiguous. Contrary to popular belief, a lateral (technically a backward pass) that touches the ground is not a fumble. It is a live ball and it may show up in the stat sheet as a fumble. But it is not, by definition of the rule book, a fumble just because it hits the ground. It is still considered a backwards pass.

 

 

 

SECTION 22 PASS - ARTICLE 1. PASS. A pass is the movement caused by a player intentionally handing, throwing, shoveling (shovel pass), or pushing (push pass) the ball (3-25-2). Such a movement is a pass even if the ball does not leave his hand or hands, provided a teammate takes it (hand-to-hand pass).

 

 

ARTICLE 5. FUMBLE. - A Fumble is any act, other than passing, handing, or legally kicking the ball, which results in a loss of player possession. The use of the term Fumble always means that the ball was in possession of a player when the act occurred (8-7). Note: An intentional fumble that causes the ball to go forward is a forward pass and may be illegal (8-1-1-Pen. a–c).

 

The above rule clearly states that the act of passing precludes the loose ball from being a fumble. Therefore, saying a backwards pass that touches the ground is a fumble is incorrect. Live ball? Yes. Fumble? No.

 

 

 

 

 

ARTICLE 5. BACKWARD PASS. It is a Backward Pass if the yard line at which the ball is first touched by a player or the ground is parallel to or behind the yard line at which the ball leaves the passer’s hand. A snap becomes a backward pass when the snapper releases the ball.

 

The above rule demonstrates that it doesn't matter if the ball is caught in the air or hits the ground, it's still a backwards pass and not a fumble.

 

 

 

 

 

SECTION 7 BACKWARD PASS AND FUMBLE - ARTICLE 1. BACKWARD PASS. A runner may throw a backward pass at any time (3-22-5). Players of either team may advance after catching a backward pass, or recovering a backward pass after it touches the ground.

 

Take particular note here. It still refers to it being a backward pass (not a fumble) even after it touches the ground.

 

 

 

 

 

 

ARTICLE 6. - FUMBLE AFTER TWO-MINUTE WARNING. If a fumble by either team occurs after the two-minute warning: (a) The ball may be advanced by any opponent. (b) The player who fumbled is the only player of his team who is permitted to recover and advance the ball. © If the recovery or catch is by a teammate of the player who fumbled, the ball is dead, and the spot of the next snap is the spot of the fumble, or the spot of the recovery if the spot of the recovery is behind the spot of the fumble.

 

 

The designation between a fumble and a backward pass is important. The reason the play was not illegal is because the balls were backwards passes and not fumbles (even though they hit the ground). Just because everybody says a lateral that hits the ground is a fumble doesn't make it one.

Edited October 27, 2017 by Tuco

[BisonMan]

The rules are not ambiguous. Contrary to popular belief, a lateral (technically a backward pass) that touches the ground is not a fumble. It is a live ball and it may show up in the stat sheet as a fumble. But it is not, by definition of the rule book, a fumble just because it hits the ground. It is still considered a backwards pass.

 

 

 

SECTION 22 PASS - ARTICLE 1. PASS. A pass is the movement caused by a player intentionally handing, throwing, shoveling (shovel pass), or pushing (push pass) the ball (3-25-2). Such a movement is a pass even if the ball does not leave his hand or hands, provided a teammate takes it (hand-to-hand pass).

 

 

ARTICLE 5. FUMBLE. - A Fumble is any act, other than passing, handing, or legally kicking the ball, which results in a loss of player possession. The use of the term Fumble always means that the ball was in possession of a player when the act occurred (8-7). Note: An intentional fumble that causes the ball to go forward is a forward pass and may be illegal (8-1-1-Pen. a–c).

 

The above rule clearly states that the act of passing precludes the loose ball from being a fumble. Therefore, saying a backwards pass that touches the ground is a fumble is incorrect. Live ball? Yes. Fumble? No.

 

 

 

 

 

ARTICLE 5. BACKWARD PASS. It is a Backward Pass if the yard line at which the ball is first touched by a player or the ground is parallel to or behind the yard line at which the ball leaves the passer’s hand. A snap becomes a backward pass when the snapper releases the ball.

 

The above rule demonstrates that it doesn't matter if the ball is caught in the air or hits the ground, it's still a backwards pass and not a fumble.

 

 

 

 

 

SECTION 7 BACKWARD PASS AND FUMBLE - ARTICLE 1. BACKWARD PASS. A runner may throw a backward pass at any time (3-22-5). Players of either team may advance after catching a backward pass, or recovering a backward pass after it touches the ground.

 

Take particular note here. It still refers to it being a backward pass (not a fumble) even after it touches the ground.

 

 

 

 

 

 

ARTICLE 6. - FUMBLE AFTER TWO-MINUTE WARNING. If a fumble by either team occurs after the two-minute warning: (a) The ball may be advanced by any opponent. (b) The player who fumbled is the only player of his team who is permitted to recover and advance the ball. © If the recovery or catch is by a teammate of the player who fumbled, the ball is dead, and the spot of the next snap is the spot of the fumble, or the spot of the recovery if the spot of the recovery is behind the spot of the fumble.

 

 

The designation between a fumble and a backward pass is important. The reason the play was not illegal is because the balls were backwards passes and not fumbles (even though they hit the ground). Just because everybody says a lateral that hits the ground is a fumble doesn't make it one.

Good pulling out the rules here. Thanks. Unfortunately, there is still some ambiguity in my mind. It never states that a backward pass that hits the ground ISN'T a fumble but the rule treats it exactly as if it were a fumble. It also mentions an "intentional fumble". How is that not exactly a backward pass that hit the ground?

 

I think there is some "intent" inferred by refs on backward passes (I.e. Laterals) which hit the ground that they could use to differentiate the from intentional fumbles.

 

I need Dean Blandino to explain this one.

[cba fan]

The rules are not ambiguous. Contrary to popular belief, a lateral (technically a backward pass) that touches the ground is not a fumble. It is a live ball and it may show up in the stat sheet as a fumble. But it is not, by definition of the rule book, a fumble just because it hits the ground. It is still considered a backwards pass.

 

 

 

SECTION 22 PASS - ARTICLE 1. PASS. A pass is the movement caused by a player intentionally handing, throwing, shoveling (shovel pass), or pushing (push pass) the ball (3-25-2). Such a movement is a pass even if the ball does not leave his hand or hands, provided a teammate takes it (hand-to-hand pass).

 

 

ARTICLE 5. FUMBLE. - A Fumble is any act, other than passing, handing, or legally kicking the ball, which results in a loss of player possession. The use of the term Fumble always means that the ball was in possession of a player when the act occurred (8-7). Note: An intentional fumble that causes the ball to go forward is a forward pass and may be illegal (8-1-1-Pen. a–c).

 

The above rule clearly states that the act of passing precludes the loose ball from being a fumble. Therefore, saying a backwards pass that touches the ground is a fumble is incorrect. Live ball? Yes. Fumble? No.

 

 

 

 

 

ARTICLE 5. BACKWARD PASS. It is a Backward Pass if the yard line at which the ball is first touched by a player or the ground is parallel to or behind the yard line at which the ball leaves the passer’s hand. A snap becomes a backward pass when the snapper releases the ball.

 

The above rule demonstrates that it doesn't matter if the ball is caught in the air or hits the ground, it's still a backwards pass and not a fumble.

 

 

 

 

 

SECTION 7 BACKWARD PASS AND FUMBLE - ARTICLE 1. BACKWARD PASS. A runner may throw a backward pass at any time (3-22-5). Players of either team may advance after catching a backward pass, or recovering a backward pass after it touches the ground.

 

Take particular note here. It still refers to it being a backward pass (not a fumble) even after it touches the ground.

 

 

 

 

 

 

ARTICLE 6. - FUMBLE AFTER TWO-MINUTE WARNING. If a fumble by either team occurs after the two-minute warning: (a) The ball may be advanced by any opponent. (b) The player who fumbled is the only player of his team who is permitted to recover and advance the ball. © If the recovery or catch is by a teammate of the player who fumbled, the ball is dead, and the spot of the next snap is the spot of the fumble, or the spot of the recovery if the spot of the recovery is behind the spot of the fumble.

 

 

The designation between a fumble and a backward pass is important. The reason the play was not illegal is because the balls were backwards passes and not fumbles (even though they hit the ground). Just because everybody says a lateral that hits the ground is a fumble doesn't make it one.

nice info.

 

It appears a backward pass(also called lateral) becomes a fumble when it hits the ground for statistical purposes but is treated as a live ball in application during a play. Therefore the two minute rule is null and void.

Edited October 27, 2017 by cba fan

[TheFunPolice]

I want to see a team like the Browns that is hopeless on offense anyway run that play a couple times a game. It might work if the other team isn't expecting it and over-pursues

Edited October 27, 2017 by TheFunPolice

[BisonMan]

nice info.

 

It appears a backward pass(also called lateral) becomes a fumble when it hits the ground for statistical purposes but is treated as a live ball in application during a play. Therefore the two minute rule is null and void.

A fumble is a "live ball" too. That just means the play isn't dead (e.g. Incomplete pass).

[Tuco]

Good pulling out the rules here. Thanks. Unfortunately, there is still some ambiguity in my mind. It never states that a backward pass that hits the ground ISN'T a fumble but the rule treats it exactly as if it were a fumble. It also mentions an "intentional fumble". How is that not exactly a backward pass that hit the ground?

 

I think there is some "intent" inferred by refs on backward passes (I.e. Laterals) which hit the ground that they could use to differentiate the from intentional fumbles.

 

I need Dean Blandino to explain this one.

Well okay but it's really not. Article 5 defines a fumble as any act other than passing (etc.) . . . . which results in a loss of player possession.

 

It doesn't have to say a backward pass that hits the ground is not a fumble. It already clearly defines a fumble, and clearly stipulates that a loss of possession due to "passing" is not a fumble. Of course we're probably wrong and every referee, competition committee member and coach (like Belllycheat) have never thought to bring this up.

 

And yes, it mentions an intentional fumble that causes the ball to go forward being a forward pass (which it is, by definition) which could be illegal. There's lots of reasons a forward pass could be illegal. But it's just as important to note it doesn't say an intentional fumble that causes the ball to go backwards may be illegal. By definition an intentional fumble causing the ball to go backwards is a backwards pass, but there's nothing that makes a backwards pass illegal. It can be done at any time just as the rule states. And it's not a fumble, it's a live ball. There's a difference.

 

As a similar example, stat sheets will show a muffed punt that is recovered by the kicking team as a fumble. But there are defiitely rules distinguishing a muff from a fumble. As in, the recovering team can recover a muff but can't advance it. That's a perfect example of something being called a fumble when it really isn't.

 

Furthermore, it's not fair to say a backwards pass that hits the ground is treated the same as a fumble. It is in many ways, but if that were true, then you wouldn't be allowed to do it inside of 2 minutes. Ha ha ha ha ha. I'll be here all week.

Edited October 27, 2017 by Tuco

[mannc]

Excellent points by you and Bison. Since the NFL considers the laterals that hit the ground fumbles, then the refs should have blown the play dead after the first recovery. Ive seen it happen before on this kind of play so it wasnt just this game or this set of refs. The NFL needs to correct it. Theres no reason to allow a play like this to continue since the injury risk is high (coughPoyercough) and blowing the play dead after the ball hits the ground and is first recovered is the right way to do that. They dont even have to change any rules, they just have to properly enforce the ones they have.

So are you saying the Bills best defensive player was injured because the refs didnt know the rule?

[BisonMan]

So are you saying the Bills best defensive player was injured because the refs didnt know the rule?

No, Marcel Darius wasn't injured.

Edited October 27, 2017 by BisonMan