Just talked to a former player from the SB years

[schoolhouserock]

This doesn't surprise me. McBeane do not seem like "player's coach/GM" to me.

[Nervous Guy]

What does that even mean?

 

You trade young talented players because the previous regime drafted them and the new one had nothing to do with them?

I think it's obvious what he meant, they went through a process of installing a scheme they wanted to go with, evaluated players, and either kept them or jettisoned them because of fit, attitude, money or ability....aside from a few players who walked because they wanted to, they got draft picks to build a team they want....not because they were drafted by another regime....no doubt the players traded had talent, they didn't fit, had an attitude or wanted too much cash.

[HT02]

Just spoke in person with a former Bill from our glory days (not giving his name-sorry). He felt our coach and GM are handling this all wrong. He felt the message the coach and GM are sending to current players is that this year is a wash. He said that is a poor way to build a team (he also said that they are turning loyal fans away). He went into detail about how they should have called in each player for an interview about where they were going to get a feel if they were a fit or not. He is not sure our current regime has done this. I take his opinion seriously because he used to play.

While I certainly respect the opinions of former players it remains just that, his opinion. Doesn't make it right or a fact. The glory day Bills played under Marv who ran a pretty loose ship. That "treat them like men" approach also has its drawbacks and there are a lot of people (including me) who think that if Marv had been a little more disciplined the Bills may have actually won one of those four Super Bowls. To look at it another way, do you think either of the "Bills" Belichick or Parcells would have done what that player suggested? How about Jimmy Johnson? Lots of ways to win, I am giving McDermott and Co. the benefit of the doubt for now.

[mjt328]

Which is a lot to ask.

 

4 to 5 SOLID starters in one draft is not easy. **** Belichick doesn't even do that.

 

The odds are stacked against them.

 

In my time observing NFL "rebuilding" projects, I've noticed that a GM can address about one-fourth of a team per year (using both the draft and free agency). This comes to about 5-6 starters and about 7-8 backups.

 

How long a rebuilding project takes is dependent on how many pieces are already in place when the GM arrives, and how effective that GM is in drafting, signing and re-signing good players. A strong team with most of the pieces in place may only take 1 season to turn around. A team completely devoid of talent like the Cleveland Browns or San Francisco 49ers may take 3-4 seasons.

 

When a coach brings in a new scheme, certain players don't fit and the rebuilding process takes longer. This is one of the main reasons the Bills have been spinning their wheels between 6-9 wins almost every season for the last decade. This cannot be understated. In my personal opinion (and I know that I'm not alone on this board), the Bills have been about a year away from playoff contention almost every offseason. With continuity, a strong draft and solid free agent pickups, we could easily bump the win total to double-digits. But then we flip the scheme and reset the process by at least another year.

 

By hiring Sean McDermott (and flipping back to a 4-3 defense), I figured this team was going to spin its wheels in the 6-7 win area again in 2017. But I had some high hopes for 2018. By trading away two young starters (Sammy Watkins and Ronald Darby) and failing to find a place for another young talent (Reggie Ragland), I'm afraid we pushed the rebuild process back another season. Frustrate the older players (Kyle Williams, LeSean McCoy, Ritchie Incognito) into leaving and you are setting yourself back even farther.

 

This year is a wash. My guess is 3-5 wins at max. Assuming Beane does a really good job with draft picks and free agency, I think we could make a jump back into the 6-8 win area in 2018 and hopefully get into the playoffs by 2019. But that's only if Beane does a good job. Does this fanbase have the patience for a project like that? Does the owner?

Edited August 30, 2017 by mjt328

[iinii]

Here is the thing, I don't think McDermott or Beane care what the locker room thinks about what they are doing. So this players point means nothing.

 

They are in the process of turning over this roster already and in two years the vast majority of this roster won't be here. I mean look at all the possibilities

 

Tyrod Taylor-def gone

Shady McCoy-good chance he's gone in two years

Charles Clay- above average chance

Richie Incognito- prob gone

Jordan Mills-gone

Kyle Williams-gone

Lo Alexander-gone

Ramon Humber-non starter or gone

 

This team will be remade for good or bad and most of the locker room they are supposedly upsetting won't be here so the point is really mute

You forgot Dareus

[Boatdrinks]

Wade Son of Bum said it: if you can't use talented players in your scheme, maybe it's your scheme that's the problem. And it seems fairly apparent that McWrestler is very focused on scheme.

That's a great line from Wade. I think it was Bum who had a saying about what makes a great Coach - He can take yur'n and beat his'n then take his'n and beat yur'n. Good stuff

[KermitMcDermott]

Just spoke in person with a former Bill from our glory days (not giving his name-sorry).

 

[PolishDave]

 

In my time observing NFL "rebuilding" projects, I've noticed that a GM can address about one-fourth of a team per year (using both the draft and free agency). This comes to about 5-6 starters and about 7-8 backups.

 

How long a rebuilding project takes is dependent on how many pieces are already in place when the GM arrives, and how effective that GM is in drafting, signing and re-signing good players. A strong team with most of the pieces in place may only take 1 season to turn around. A team completely devoid of talent like the Cleveland Browns or San Francisco 49ers may take 3-4 seasons.

 

When a coach brings in a new scheme, certain players don't fit and the rebuilding process takes longer. This is one of the main reasons the Bills have been spinning their wheels between 6-9 wins almost every season for the last decade. This cannot be understated. In my personal opinion (and I know that I'm not alone on this board), the Bills have been about a year away from playoff contention almost every offseason. With continuity, a strong draft and solid free agent pickups, we could easily bump the win total to double-digits. But then we flip the scheme and reset the process by at least another year.

 

By hiring Sean McDermott (and flipping back to a 4-3 defense), I figured this team was going to spin its wheels in the 6-7 win area again in 2017. But I had some high hopes for 2018. By trading away two young starters (Sammy Watkins and Ronald Darby) and failing to find a place for another young talent (Reggie Ragland), I'm afraid we pushed the rebuild process back another season. Frustrate the older players (Kyle Williams, LeSean McCoy, Ritchie Incognito) into leaving and you are setting yourself back even farther.

 

This year is a wash. My guess is 3-5 wins at max. Assuming Beane does a really good job with draft picks and free agency, I think we could make a jump back into the 6-8 win area in 2018 and hopefully get into the playoffs by 2019. But that's only if Beane does a good job. Does this fanbase have the patience for a project like that? Does the owner?

 

Good post

 

As far as the patience part goes -

 

It depends on how well the team plays this year and next year.

 

If they win 4 games or less this year, I expect about 1/2 of the fan base to crumble already. If they get 5-8 wins - most fans will say - okay let's keep going. If they miraculously got 9-10 wins a lot of fans will be arguing that this could have been the year if they hadn't traded away talent early this year but the coach will look competent with a good record.

 

If they get 4 wins or less this year, then fan patience obviously gets shorter with this regime and makes next year a "must" improve year or else - probably with somewhere around 1/2 the fan base I would guess.

 

As far as the Pegulas go - who knows? You would have thought they might have been more patient with one of the last two coaches - but they weren't.

[Gugny]

 

Was this pessimism as prevalent before the Sammy trade? I know it wasn't for me. That trade cracked my optimism completely - same as it would have it Sammy would have torn an ACL and been out for the season.

 

I was really looking forward to the offense taking another step forward this year hopefully. And with an improved run defense, this team would be respectable. Now my intuition (whether right or wrong) tells me that the offense will most likely take a big step backwards and as a result the entire team will take a big step backward. I am guessing other people might feel that way too..

 

For me, personally, the day they re-did Tyrod's contract was the day I said the tank was in. Every move since has only proven it. My pessimism is odd, though ... I've never felt more certain that the Bills are a 3-4 win team; yet I've also never been more excited about the future of the team. I am a Beane believer and I think we're two years away from being a force in the AFC.

[26CornerBlitz]

 

For me, personally, the day they re-did Tyrod's contract was the day I said the tank was in. Every move since has only proven it. My pessimism is odd, though ... I've never felt more certain that the Bills are a 3-4 win team; yet I've also never been more excited about the future of the team. I am a Beane believer and I think we're two years away from being a force in the AFC.

 

If that's true, then why did they re-sign Alexander, talk Kyle into coming back, and sign Boldin? I see mixed messages.

[Gugny]

 

If that's true, then why did they re-sign Alexander, talk Kyle into coming back, and sign Boldin? I see mixed messages.

 

I also see mixed messages, but the overall message is clear (to me). Who they've kept/gotten isn't even close to who they've let go, in my opinion. They've secured a weaker passing game that was last in the league a year ago and they've secured a weaker defense, which was atrocious a year ago.

[mjt328]

 

Good post

 

As far as the patience part goes -

 

It depends on how well the team plays this year and next year.

 

If they win 4 games or less this year, I expect about 1/2 of the fan base to crumble already. If they get 5-8 wins - most fans will say - okay let's keep going. If they miraculously got 9-10 wins a lot of fans will be arguing that this could have been the year if they hadn't traded away talent early this year but the coach will look competent with a good record.

 

If they get 4 wins or less this year, then fan patience obviously gets shorter with this regime and makes next year a "must" improve year or else - probably with somewhere around 1/2 the fan base I would guess.

 

As far as the Pegulas go - who knows? You would have thought they might have been more patient with one of the last two coaches - but they weren't.

 

Exactly. And that's why I'm rarely in favor of a complete and total roster overhaul.

 

By the time Beane gets this team back (just to where Whaley had them), it's going to be at least 2-3 seasons into the rebuild. And even the fans supporting all these moves now will start calling for a change at the top.

[Perry Turtle]

While I certainly respect the opinions of former players it remains just that, his opinion. Doesn't make it right or a fact. The glory day Bills played under Marv who ran a pretty loose ship. That "treat them like men" approach also has its drawbacks and there are a lot of people (including me) who think that if Marv had been a little more disciplined the Bills may have actually won one of those four Super Bowls. To look at it another way, do you think either of the "Bills" Belichick or Parcells would have done what that player suggested? How about Jimmy Johnson? Lots of ways to win, I am giving McDermott and Co. the benefit of the doubt for now.

Seriously? The Bills were disciplined enough to win over 50 games during the SB years but they lost 4 because of a lack of discipline?

 

And they lost to the Cowboys because Dallas was more disciplined? Charles Haley and Mike Irvin would make this board's collective head spin off its shoulders if they were Buffalo Bills.

 

Bill Parcells was Lawrence Taylor's biggest enabler. And Bill Billichick has put up with Gronkowski's antics and injuries for years. Do you really believe that Bilichick didn't know Aaron Hernandez was a scumbag when he drafted him?

 

The only thing that Johnson, Parcells, and Belichick care about is how a player performs on the field. They don't care if the guy is a great citizen, or shows up on on time for stretching sessions, or tells the media that he needs more the ball more.

 

These guys are great coaches because they know how to maximize the talent on their rosters to win games. It has nothing to do with culture, or process, or adherence to scheme.

Edited August 30, 2017 by Perry Turtle

[DirtDart]

I feel bad for you all that actually spend money on this product.

I don't disbelieve the OP's story or that a former player might think that.

 

But at the same time I don't see how a former player (who isn't dealing with McD any more than we are), knows something we don't. Being his opinion is fine, but I just don't value anybodys opinion on the matter and am willing to let it play out.

 

That's from someone who is very skeptical about the return we have gotten from recent trades (myself). Fact is, we don't know how it will turn out, but I respect the honest attempt at a legitimate rebuild. Too many half assed, win-kinda-now-but-still-rebuild years and need a real foundation if we want a build something big. Overzealous, cap cuffing, "big splash" signings are a thing of the past and that is refreshing. I am going to "trust the process", but I might mumble and groan along the way.

I agree, good post. All we can do is let it play out. It is clear they have a plan. We have to give it time to really judge the end product.

[snamsnoops]

Hells yeah!

Let's get us some Dwight Drane as well. Maybe he's hanging with Marvcus Patton.

Mitch Frerotte heard this from Chris Mohr

[Hapless Bills Fan]

Levy was out coached in that all four SBs.

 

FIFY

Scheme? Switching back to an attacking 4-3 is a dramatic ill advised scheme change?

 

Where did anyone say anything about a dramatic ill advised scheme change?

 

 

[26CornerBlitz]

 

FIFY

 

Where did anyone say anything about a dramatic ill advised scheme change?

 

 

 

They were the better team in SB XXV. In the other three vs. WAS and DAL they were outclassed.

[PromoTheRobot]

 

They were the better team in SB XXV. In the other three vs. WAS and DAL they were outclassed.

Kelly's ego cost them SB XXV

[26CornerBlitz]

Kelly's ego cost them SB XXV

 

I agree. Should have run the ball down the Giants throats.

[SoTier]

Not surprising. Anyone with half a brain can see these guys are clueless. Luckily they found an ownership group as dumb as them.

 

Same old same old at OBD

 

Agreed. I was hopeful early on, but the more I see of the new regime, the more I'm convinced they're as bad as the worst of the previous regimes, ie, the Brandon-Levy-Jauron triumvirate. The names change but the organization's lack of interest in winning football games remains the same.