So, your United flight is overbooked?

[sherpa]

Chicago to Louisville is only a 5 hour ride... Get a limo for the crew. They can sleep on the ride.

Not legal on two fronts.

 

First, contractually. Airline flight crew contracts prohibit this type of thing for very good reasons.

Second, FAA crew duty regulations. You can't bus a crew for five hours then expect them to shower up and fly multiple legs the next day.

There are extremely strict crew duty time regulations, and they are rigorously complied with, and just as rigorously enforced.

[JohnC]

I understand why the passenger was upset. Airlines overbook because a percentage of the customers don't show up for a variety of reasons. So their business model has to adjust for that variable. When there is an overbooking usually there is some accommodation where the airline will offer incentives for voluntary removals. It didn't work out here. So a lottery was used to take some passengers off the flight. I don't know what better approach there was to take.

 

I would be interested to know when the first flight out was for the next day, with the same carrier or other. Although it would still inconvenience the passenger it would have been a reasonable settlement.

 

I still believe that the agitated passenger acted inappropriately, to the point of illegally, when he refused to comply with the orders of the security staff. They had the authority to remove the passenger. The only criticism that I have of the security people is that instead of dragging the resisting customer they should have picked him up by the arms and legs. They had more than enough people to do that.

 

Flying on time is not a guarantee. There are too many contingencies that can't be controlled such as weather, breakdowns and medical emergencies that affect the flight. It happens. Responding to these frustrations is part of life. If you can't handle such a small irritation then that is one's own problem.

[boyst]

My god eii's on a soapbox

[4merper4mer]

Seems 98 percent of people inconvenienced claim they are a doctor, these poor folk always getting the short end of the stick or its a handy thing to say to try to weasel out of reality.

 

 

This dude was Asian so probably a doc.

[teef]

the dude should have just **** himself. let's seem them carry him off the plan then.

[LewPort71]

Chicago to Louisville is only a 5 hour ride... Get a limo for the crew. They can sleep on the ride.

 

This ^^^^^.

Or up the offer to $ 1200 from $ 800.

Peeps would have taken the $1200 offering

[meazza]

Did they offer cash or a voucher because if they offered a voucher, I wouldn't take it.

[Marv's Neighbor]

I worked for United 1968-2003. I'm not defending them but here are the facts as I see them;

 

1) Overbooking is a policy that started when the airlines were government regulated by the CAB. The CAB went away in 1979. At the time the airlines argued that they were losing too much from no-shows, the fares were regulated, and there was no way to recover the loss. Fair enough. Now there are penalties for being a no show, rules, re-booking fees etc,etc., so maybe overbooking has outlived its usefulness? By the way JetBlue has a policy of NOT overbooking-just sayin!

2) That wasn't really United BUT United Express, a group of contract carriers who pay their people dirt, no benefits, are under trained/supervised and have no sincere interest in seeing the job done right. So United lets them dress their agents, and paint their planes while thinking they save money on such a deal. United will take the fall, and maybe they are getting what they deserve? If it looks like United, it must be United.....not true! Even though this happened at ORD, a UA hub, UA does not handle the UA Eexpress flights, even at ORD. Having said that, once you get away from the hubs, all the employees are contract people. My wife & I, retired from Seattle but live in the Richmond VA area. We have travel benefits by virtue of my 35 years but given the choice, we drive to Dulles to fly. The contract operations are too painful to watch or experience. That's only because we are both UA retirees and we, despite being screwed out of our pensions, do still care!

3) The reason they needed the seat was for a dead heading crew member, who was likely needed in Louisville to cover another flight. That's NO excuse but unfortunately is the fact. IF they were compelled to ride a jump seat, it would count against their crew rest time, which bites into their duty total duty time available out of Louisville. (FAA duty regulations). The United Express crew desk needs to get their act together so that crew are moved around the system without passenger disruption or notice!

4) The Police officers were not Chicago Police but TSA/Homeland security people. I worked at O'Hare in the 80's, and the Chicago Police had the Airport security responsibility but that was well before all the TSA theatrei

 

Sadly people have bad experiences on ALL of the airlines. There are a lot of people who would NEVER FLY this or that carrier. Fair enough, it's a free market place, but the over booking policies of ALL the airlines need to be done away with. They are no longer economically justified in any airline business model..

[shrader]

Did they offer cash or a voucher because if they offered a voucher, I wouldn't take it.

 

I know I wouldn't either. It has nothing to do with this incident, but I have no desire to fly that airline ever again. I've had issues with them each of the couple times I flew with them. I actually just let some vouchers from them expire in February. Fortunately it was never anything too major, just a consistent series of canceled flights, lost bags, and piss poor service. To me the vouchers had less value than toilet paper.

[Marv's Neighbor]

You got the logo wrong!

[row_33]

 

 

This dude was Asian so probably a doc.

 

I keep reminding myself that in many countries a high school diploma is an "engineering degree" when they get over here...

[meazza]

 

I know I wouldn't either. It has nothing to do with this incident, but I have no desire to fly that airline ever again. I've had issues with them each of the couple times I flew with them. I actually just let some vouchers from them expire in February. Fortunately it was never anything too major, just a consistent series of canceled flights, lost bags, and piss poor service. To me the vouchers had less value than toilet paper.

 

Exactly. I flew from Montreal to Sint Maarten this summer and I was offered a $700 USD voucher on AA. I took it and i found it very difficult to find a flight work taking with the same airline.

 

On the other hand my sister who was coming back from Germany to Montreal with Air France was given 800 EUR cash and a food voucher for accepting a bumped flight. I'd accept that in a heartbeat.

[row_33]

It's the hi-lite of my parent's year to get a hand

 

 

 

Exactly. I flew from Montreal to Sint Maarten this summer and I was offered a $700 USD voucher on AA. I took it and i found it very difficult to find a flight work taking with the same airline.

 

On the other hand my sister who was coming back from Germany to Montreal with Air France was given 800 EUR cash and a food voucher for accepting a bumped flight. I'd accept that in a heartbeat.

 

It's the hi-lite of my parent's year to get a fistful of cash and a nice extra night off from travel back for their senior vacations. Gives them 16 hours of dinner party anecdote, the amount gets bigger each time i hear it...

Edited April 11, 2017 by row_33

[\GoBillsInDallas/]

Update: Passenger is David Dao

 

"Dao was convicted of multiple felony counts of obtaining drugs by fraud or deceit in November 2004 and was placed on five years of supervised probation in January 2005, according to the documents. He surrendered his medical license the next month."

http://www.courier-journal.com/story/news/local/2017/04/11/david-dao-passenger-removed-united-flight-doctor-troubled-past/100318320/

[sherpa]

If they were compelled to ride a jump seat, it would count against their crew rest time, which bites into their duty total duty time available out of Louisville. (FAA duty regulations).

 

Fair enough, it's a free market place, but the over booking policies of ALL the airlines need to be done away with. They are no longer economically justified in any airline business model..

 

No problem with your post except these two items.

 

Jumpseat or cabin, time deadheading is duty time and governed by duty time restrictions.

 

Overbooking, as you sate, has been going on for decades. People would be shocked to see the complexity of the algorithms used in these yield management programs, down to the city pairs, day of the week and time of departure, and how incredibly accurate they are, based on thousands and thousands of examples.

Further they keep costs down because of the relative ease of being a no show and not having to pay.

[Punching Bag]

I will not volunteer for vouchers. Had one for planned trip to New Orleans and Katrina occurred; other airlines gave refunds but mine only gave vouchers good for 1 year I was told. Found out that the voucher was good only for one year from PURCHASE not scheduled flight date and I booked ticket when game date was announced so over 5 months was not included; then the airline kept saying "you cannot use voucher" on multiple flights because plane had maximum number of vouchers on it already even though many seats open. Have never flown on airline again.

[BuffaloBud]

I'd like to know where in the terms and conditions of the ticket it says that the airline can use physical force to remove anyone from the plane when there is an overbook situation. If you're being an azz to the crew other passengers - let me help you get off the plane. But, for your screw up - NADA!!

[ExiledInIllinois]

I worked for United 1968-2003. I'm not defending them but here are the facts as I see them;

 

1) Overbooking is a policy that started when the airlines were government regulated by the CAB. The CAB went away in 1979. At the time the airlines argued that they were losing too much from no-shows, the fares were regulated, and there was no way to recover the loss. Fair enough. Now there are penalties for being a no show, rules, re-booking fees etc,etc., so maybe overbooking has outlived its usefulness? By the way JetBlue has a policy of NOT overbooking-just sayin!

2) That wasn't really United BUT United Express, a group of contract carriers who pay their people dirt, no benefits, are under trained/supervised and have no sincere interest in seeing the job done right. So United lets them dress their agents, and paint their planes while thinking they save money on such a deal. United will take the fall, and maybe they are getting what they deserve? If it looks like United, it must be United.....not true! Even though this happened at ORD, a UA hub, UA does not handle the UA Eexpress flights, even at ORD. Having said that, once you get away from the hubs, all the employees are contract people. My wife & I, retired from Seattle but live in the Richmond VA area. We have travel benefits by virtue of my 35 years but given the choice, we drive to Dulles to fly. The contract operations are too painful to watch or experience. That's only because we are both UA retirees and we, despite being screwed out of our pensions, do still care!

3) The reason they needed the seat was for a dead heading crew member, who was likely needed in Louisville to cover another flight. That's NO excuse but unfortunately is the fact. IF they were compelled to ride a jump seat, it would count against their crew rest time, which bites into their duty total duty time available out of Louisville. (FAA duty regulations). The United Express crew desk needs to get their act together so that crew are moved around the system without passenger disruption or notice!

4) The Police officers were not Chicago Police but TSA/Homeland security people. I worked at O'Hare in the 80's, and the Chicago Police had the Airport security responsibility but that was well before all the TSA theatrei

 

Sadly people have bad experiences on ALL of the airlines. There are a lot of people who would NEVER FLY this or that carrier. Fair enough, it's a free market place, but the over booking policies of ALL the airlines need to be done away with. They are no longer economically justified in any airline business model..

Thanks MN, gr8 info, I agree with you 100%.

 

So much in the news is wrong, not fake but tweaked one way or another like the zinger about the Chicago police.

 

Next time anybody reads any story... Think of Marv's Neighbor's post, the perspective of somebody on the inside of things. It is well balanced!

Edited April 11, 2017 by ExiledInIllinois

[Punching Bag]

 

Update: Passenger is David Dao

 

"Dao was convicted of multiple felony counts of obtaining drugs by fraud or deceit in November 2004 and was placed on five years of supervised probation in January 2005, according to the documents. He surrendered his medical license the next month."

http://www.courier-journal.com/story/news/local/2017/04/11/david-dao-passenger-removed-united-flight-doctor-troubled-past/100318320/

 

 

And it his license was returned. Lets not leave that out so he WAS a doctor not like racist stated above.

 

 

The Kentucky Board of Medical Licensure permitted Dao to resume practicing medicine in 2015 under certain conditions.

[ExiledInIllinois]

My god eii's on a soapbox

It's what I do!

 

Progress NOT perfection.

 

/blush