Dorkington Posted January 26, 2017 Share Posted January 26, 2017 If we're guaranteed to win only 6 games with Tyrod, then yes, I say move on. But I disagree with that guarantee... we can score points with Tyrod at QB, the problem is, we gave up too many points on the other side of the ball. My assumption is that we'll get better on defense, and win some of those 'guaranteed losses'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augie Posted January 26, 2017 Share Posted January 26, 2017 If we're guaranteed to win only 6 games with Tyrod, then yes, I say move on. But I disagree with that guarantee... we can score points with Tyrod at QB, the problem is, we gave up too many points on the other side of the ball. My assumption is that we'll get better on defense, and win some of those 'guaranteed losses'. I agree, but fear that we may fix the broken side of the ball, only to see what was working get messed up - again. If the offense stinks, it doesn't mean it's Tyrod' fault. He's proven he can run an offense that scores. I hope we use a scheme that results in as many points as the last scheme. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorkington Posted January 26, 2017 Share Posted January 26, 2017 (edited) I agree, but fear that we may fix the broken side of the ball, only to see what was working get messed up - again. If the offense stinks, it doesn't mean it's Tyrod' fault. He's proven he can run an offense that scores. I hope we use a scheme that results in as many points as the last scheme. Yeah, I do wonder about that myself. I think Roman's scheme worked wonderfully for us (top third in a lot of per drive metrics), while our defense was in the bottom third of the league in per drive metrics. If we can keep the offense productive and just get our defense to be top half of the league, we'll win a couple more of those close games that we lost over the last couple of seasons and see ourselves in the wildcard, rather easily. No idea what our new offense is going to be like, and if Tyrod would play well within it or not. Tyrod like most mid range QBs likely depends on a scheme/coaching that is geared towards his strengths. I think a lot of people want to tank until we get a QB, but that could easily turn us into the Browns. :| Edited January 26, 2017 by Dorkington Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PolishDave Posted January 26, 2017 Share Posted January 26, 2017 Tyrod throws for 3100 yards, completes 62% of his passes with a 7.7 yards per attempt. Starts 15 games. Wins 6 games. Do you sign up for it? The real questions you should ask are: Given Tyrod's skill level, cap level and style of play and other options at quarterback, is it in the Bills' team best interest to pick up the option so that he is here for the next few years. If the answer to that is yes, then you pick up the option. If the answer to that is no because of skill level or style of play or other options available at quarterback then you move on. If the answer to that is no because of cap money then you ask: Is it possible to renegotiate with him somehow to get him at a price that is acceptable? If the answer to that is no then you move on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffismagic Posted January 26, 2017 Share Posted January 26, 2017 The real questions you should ask are: Given Tyrod's skill level, cap level and style of play and other options at quarterback, is it in the Bills' team best interest to pick up the option so that he is here for the next few years. If the answer to that is yes, then you pick up the option. If the answer to that is no because of skill level or style of play or other options available at quarterback then you move on. If the answer to that is no because of cap money then you ask: Is it possible to renegotiate with him somehow to get him at a price that is acceptable? If the answer to that is no then you move on. Given Tyrod's skill level, cap level and style of play and other options at quarterback, is it in the Bills' team best interest to pick up the option so that he is here for the next few years. If the answer to that is yes, then you pick up the option in context of Buffalo's roster compared to other teams in the division and league. That's what my question was trying to get out of you but you have had multiple attempts to answer it and don't want to answer the yes or no question I posed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aristocrat Posted January 26, 2017 Share Posted January 26, 2017 let's say tyrod throws for 3300 yards, 20 tds and rushes for 600 yards. if shady and gilly and others run for 2000 yards we have a great offense. if the defense gets under 20 points per game allowed we're looking at 10 wins. phins swept, jets and rookie qb swept. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
section122 Posted January 26, 2017 Share Posted January 26, 2017 Given Tyrod's skill level, cap level and style of play and other options at quarterback, is it in the Bills' team best interest to pick up the option so that he is here for the next few years. If the answer to that is yes, then you pick up the option in context of Buffalo's roster compared to other teams in the division and league. That's what my question was trying to get out of you but you have had multiple attempts to answer it and don't want to answer the yes or no question I posed. Then you phrased it very poorly by tacking on win totals at the end. Wins and losses are caused by so many more things than just the QB. Look at the names of the guys I listed previously. We would all agree those QBs are better than Tyrod yet their teams finished with worse records. I absolutely 100% want TT back. I don't think he is done developing even though I agree he took a step back this year. His first 2 years starting mirror Russel Wilson's quite nicely. Wilson was given the luxury of a top notch defense and rode it all the way to a super bowl. With another off season of maturation physically and mentally I would like to see if he can duplicate the Seattle and Miami games. I started another thread with qb cost per team per win but even if the Bills were to draft a guy in the first and keep TT they still would only have about 20 million in cap space tied up in the position. The only reason not to keep Tyrod is if they think he has completely developed. I can't argue against that I just don't believe it to be true. As I said in the Watson thread if we had a rookie come in and after 2 years perform at the level TT only the most negative of negative posters would want to move on. He has his warts but I think he is still growing as a QB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PolishDave Posted January 26, 2017 Share Posted January 26, 2017 Given Tyrod's skill level, cap level and style of play and other options at quarterback, is it in the Bills' team best interest to pick up the option so that he is here for the next few years. If the answer to that is yes, then you pick up the option in context of Buffalo's roster compared to other teams in the division and league. That's what my question was trying to get out of you but you have had multiple attempts to answer it and don't want to answer the yes or no question I posed. Ask a better question and you'll get a better answer. I was trying to point out how silly your hypothetical was. The truth is you don't know what next year is going to be like. Your guess is no better or worse than mine. I think the Bills are close. Given Tyrod's skill level, cap level and other options at quarterback I do think it is in the Bills' team best interest to pick up the option so that he is here for the next few years. I am not 100% sure about how this coaching staff intends to use Tyrod (if they do intend to use him) so I can't say for sure about how good of a fit he would be. Maybe I would change my mind if I knew that. Will I be happy with the team if the Bills only win 6 games next year? No. Will I be happy with the QB? Can't say based on what you have given me. I could be very unhappy with the team and still be mostly happy with my QB - sort of like this year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffismagic Posted January 26, 2017 Share Posted January 26, 2017 Ok, I think you have answered the question to my satisfaction. One person said they would not be happy having spent 30 million on a QB if we won 6 games. The rest tried to change the subject and not answer the question. I will take that as yes most would be fine paying TT 30 million if the Bills won 6 games as long as TT could not be identified as playing worse than he already has. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorkington Posted January 26, 2017 Share Posted January 26, 2017 I think TT's cap hit is like 17mil next year, not 30mil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ALF Posted January 26, 2017 Share Posted January 26, 2017 Taylor is a ok bridge till a better QB can be developed. If he stays use the #10 pick for a good non QB, fix the D , the offense was scoring ok. Draft a QB 2nd rd or later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloHokie13 Posted January 26, 2017 Share Posted January 26, 2017 I think TT's cap hit is like 17mil next year, not 30mil. It's $15.9M next year, $16.78M in 2018. Dead cap if we cut him after 1 year would be ~$33M though. I don't know why people are assuming we'd pick up the option and then cut him though... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uffalo Ills Posted January 26, 2017 Share Posted January 26, 2017 Terrible news. Whaley strikes again putting his job security ahead of the team. Hey, on the bright side, if this team sucks enough, you might have to find a new team to B word and moan about... (fingers crossed) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PolishDave Posted January 26, 2017 Share Posted January 26, 2017 (edited) Ok, I think you have answered the question to my satisfaction. One person said they would not be happy having spent 30 million on a QB if we won 6 games. The rest tried to change the subject and not answer the question. I will take that as yes most would be fine paying TT 30 million if the Bills won 6 games as long as TT could not be identified as playing worse than he already has. When you asked the original question I got the sense that you might be one of those guys on this forum that think total passing yards is a good measurement of quarterback. Maybe you think that way and maybe you don't. I don't know if you do and I am not accusing you of it. Just explaining myself. I have had long discussions/arguments with other people here trying to explain why total passing yards aren't useful much at all really as a measuring stick for QB's. And the reason is because they don't account for number of pass attempts. You are much better off using yards per attempt as you used later on. Most of the guys here who want Tyrod gone badly constantly hammer the 28th ranked or 30th ranked passing attack as a knock against Tyrod - and doing so simply proves they are truly stupid. I say that because if you look at the stats for teams in the NFL, you will see that when it comes to total passing yards, the teams at the very bottom of the list threw the ball the least number of times and the teams at the very top of the list threw the ball more times than anyone. And the Bills were so heavily skewed to run the ball that it makes total passing yards ridiculously low. There is no perfect stat for quarterbacks, but total passing yards is the worst unless you are comparing one qb against another qb who threw the same number of passes approximately. The number of pass attempts by team is radically different between the top and bottom of the list. Baltimore threw the ball 679 times compared to the Bills 474 times. Gee. No wonder the Ravens had 1,000 more yards than the Bills. They threw 205 more passes. Yet the Ravens had worse Yards per attempt. So you could make the point that the Bills passing attack was better than the Ravens, considerably better actually, on a per play basis. Yet the Ravens ranked number 12 total passing yards while the Bills ranked near the bottom in total passing yards. That is why using total passing yards for a QB is not just a bad idea, it is just wrong. It is meaningless when your offense throws the ball less (by design) than any other offense in the NFL. Of course you are going to rank at or near the bottom. Maybe you already knew this. I don't know. But in regards the QB (who threw the ball the least number of times in the league) total passing yards is completely irrelevant as a measurement. If you don't believe me, go look up the stats. Saints led the league in passing yards and they were number 2 in total attempts. Bills threw the ball the least number of times but were ranked 30th. Edited January 26, 2017 by PolishDave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdand12 Posted January 26, 2017 Share Posted January 26, 2017 If we're guaranteed to win only 6 games with Tyrod, then yes, I say move on. But I disagree with that guarantee... we can score points with Tyrod at QB, the problem is, we gave up too many points on the other side of the ball. My assumption is that we'll get better on defense, and win some of those 'guaranteed losses'. Have you considered along with the others here, he could get worse. If he keeps running instead of sticking with the pass play call, his likelihood of getting injured continues to rise. Defenses will shut him down one way or another. Just playing Devils advocate for a moment Dorki Taylor is a ok bridge till a better QB can be developed. If he stays use the #10 pick for a good non QB, fix the D , the offense was scoring ok. Draft a QB 2nd rd or later. Okay, lets do that ! Safety or WR perhaps ? Ok, I think you have answered the question to my satisfaction. One person said they would not be happy having spent 30 million on a QB if we won 6 games. The rest tried to change the subject and not answer the question. I will take that as yes most would be fine paying TT 30 million if the Bills won 6 games as long as TT could not be identified as playing worse than he already has. two questions. One is, don't we need to clarify the 30 Mill is for two years not one. It is just guaranteed money. Not next years payout against the cap ? The other question would be, if he does not play worse, there is no way we lose 10 plus games. and finally, i think we have a point we can mostly agree upon. Well summarized. and draft one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radar Posted January 26, 2017 Share Posted January 26, 2017 (edited) I honestly don't believe there is a better alternative to Tyrod lookin at next season. Bite the bullet and start looking long term (draft). Edited January 26, 2017 by Radar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CommonCents Posted January 26, 2017 Share Posted January 26, 2017 It's simple for me, if the coaching staff and GM come to the conclusion that TT is never going to improve presnap then let him go. I understand that would be kicking out the solid floor that TT offers but this team needs to start looking forwarded and stop trying to patch together a 10-6 miracle season. The over/unders are higher than ever and we will always be limited with a QB who wears a blindfold at the LOS and can't execute a two minute drill. Shady's numbers are almost certainly going to start dropping, the Bills need a QB that can compensate for that. If that QB is not on the roster draft one high and move forward while addressing the roster holes in 17' and 18'. Don't sacrifice talent at other positions to continue down this path UNLESS TT is magically going to start processing the game at an NFL level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdand12 Posted January 26, 2017 Share Posted January 26, 2017 I honestly don't believe there is a better alternative to Tyrod lookin at next season. Bite the bullet and start looking or long term (draft). I do not think they can draft high for one if they have any really interest in Cardale coming out in the next year or two. I would bet some donuts, part of the QB e v a l is really "can , and should, we put Jones in 2017 " It's simple for me, if the coaching staff and GM come to the conclusion that TT is never going to improve presnap then let him go. I understand that would be kicking out the solid floor that TT offers but this team needs to start looking forwarded and stop trying to patch together a 10-6 miracle season. The over/unders are higher than ever and we will always be limited with a QB who wears a blindfold at the LOS and can't execute a two minute drill. Shady's numbers are almost certainly going to start dropping, the Bills need a QB that can compensate for that. If that QB is not on the roster draft one high and move forward while addressing the roster holes in 17' and 18'. Don't sacrifice talent at other positions to continue down this path UNLESS TT is magically going to start processing the game at an NFL level. I noticed you used the word Magically ! But any one should agree with that. If only for financial reasons. Start CJ and or bring in a vet ( still draft one ) and hope Jones can ramp himself up to speed. I would just hate knowing this season is not about winning. Very hard for me to think about right now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CommonCents Posted January 26, 2017 Share Posted January 26, 2017 I do not think they can draft high for one if they have any really interest in Cardale coming out in the next year or two. I would bet some donuts, part of the QB e v a l is really "can , and should, we put Jones in 2017 " I noticed you used the word Magically ! But any one should agree with that. If only for financial reasons. Start CJ and or bring in a vet ( still draft one ) and hope Jones can ramp himself up to speed. I would just hate knowing this season is not about winning. Very hard for me to think about right now Magically may have been a bit harsh but TT has been in the NFL long enough that he should show SOMETHING. I'm sure some of it can be attributed to Lee and the coaching staff but I think we would be kidden ourselves if TT gets a free pass. Alot of fans want TT back because without him the season will most likely be lost before it begins but tough decisions need to be made otherwise round and round we go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdand12 Posted January 26, 2017 Share Posted January 26, 2017 Magically may have been a bit harsh but TT has been in the NFL long enough that he should show SOMETHING. I'm sure some of it can be attributed to Lee and the coaching staff but I think we would be kidden ourselves if TT gets a free pass. Alot of fans want TT back because without him the season will most likely be lost before it begins but tough decisions need to be made otherwise round and round we go. I do not know enough about Salaries and Cap to make a judgement. And who know what is going right now with Bills considering 24 potential open roster spots. Wish it was easier. But this is the Bills Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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