In hindsight, was Kiko Alonso more useful that we thought?

[FireChan]

Let me preface this topic with saying that I do, and did, agree with the Alonso trade. We have all seen what Shady can do when healthy, and even hobbled on this team, he showed a lot this past game against the Bengals, without much threat from the passing game.

 

But. Did we devalue him a little too much? Remembering the way he was used in Pettine's system, when he had a DROY runner-up season, he seemed to be something this team could really use. A LB that was used to great effect against the pass, who was one of the chief players when disguising blitzes, or showing blitzes and dropping off in coverage.

 

I watched this (I know it's a highlight video, but it's the best I can do.)

 

 

I noted Kiko's position in a lot of his highlights. Dropping into the middle of the field to protect against quick-ins and slants, he produced. Obviously the TO well dried up early as it is wont to do, but still. His effectiveness on short to intermediate routes across the middle was apparent. He wasn't a player without his negatives, namely getting swallowed up on run blocks. But would he have fit this system perhaps better than Bradham or Brown, two LB's who haven't had a great year in pass coverage, a similar system that he excelled in back in 2013 (even if he wasn't perfect)?

 

Again, reiterating that I still agree with the trade. And even if he is a better fit, I still would've pulled the trigger on the trade. But I thought I wouldn't notice much of a drop off.

 

And let's ignore injuries for a second, because this topic will quickly die if the only dialogue is "injury-prone, couldn't help in street clothes."

[FireChan]

You mean the guy who has played in what one game this year?

You may be better off having a signature that says, "I didn't read the OP."

[Mr. WEO]

I think the legend of Kiko was more useful than the man himself....

[bills_fan_in_raleigh]

I hate watching manny Lawson try to play LB. last year he got killed in run game and under petite and Rex he's vulnerable in the pass game. Another good outside lb that can cover would be great versus dropping Kyle and Mario I to pass coverage.

[BADOLBILZ]

Let me preface this topic with saying that I do, and did, agree with the Alonso trade. We have all seen what Shady can do when healthy, and even hobbled on this team, he showed a lot this past game against the Bengals, without much threat from the passing game.

 

But. Did we devalue him a little too much? Remembering the way he was used in Pettine's system, when he had a DROY runner-up season, he seemed to be something this team could really use. A LB that was used to great effect against the pass, who was one of the chief players when disguising blitzes, or showing blitzes and dropping off in coverage.

 

I watched this (I know it's a highlight video, but it's the best I can do.)

 

 

I noted Kiko's position in a lot of his highlights. Dropping into the middle of the field to protect against quick-ins and slants, he produced. Obviously the TO well dried up early as it is wont to do, but still. His effectiveness on short to intermediate routes across the middle was apparent. He wasn't a player without his negatives, namely getting swallowed up on run blocks. But would he have fit this system perhaps better than Bradham or Brown, two LB's who haven't had a great year in pass coverage, a similar system that he excelled in back in 2013 (even if he wasn't perfect)?

 

Again, reiterating that I still agree with the trade. And even if he is a better fit, I still would've pulled the trigger on the trade. But I thought I wouldn't notice much of a drop off.

 

And let's ignore injuries for a second, because this topic will quickly die if the only dialogue is "injury-prone, couldn't help in street clothes."

 

 

A player like Alonso is of great value in any modern system.

 

Instinctive coverage LB's with hands to make a play on the football are defensive gold.

 

Yes, teams are wearing out Brown and Bradham with coverage responsibilities.

 

They are best going forward and Schwartz defense dared teams to run and forced them to do it up the middle.

 

Getting McCoy wasn't the problem........giving up too much and then paying him as if he were a free agent coming off a career year rather than a high mileage back coming off of a down year were the issues.

 

Alonso has another ligament issue this season......but I don't believe the Bills knew it was going to happen and I am almost entirely certain.....based on past moves with DeSean Jackson and Evan Mathis......that McCoy was going to be otherwise released.... and at worst could have been had for a late round pick.

 

Instead they traded a high ceiling chip for negotiating rights.

[Max997]

You may be better off having a signature that says, "I didn't read the OP."

You may be better off not bringing up a topic that has already been talked to death

 

Let it go

Edited October 22, 2015 by Max997

[Coach Tuesday]

In a passing league in a division with the best passing QB in a generation - yes, we should've kept Kiko.

[FireChan]

You may be better off not bringing up a topic that has already been talked to death

 

Let it go

Look, it's another poster who doesn't realize if he doesn't want to talk about something, he doesn't have to post in the topic. Maybe I should have brought up a topic about Rex and the defense, or TT vs. EJ, those topics are very fresh.

 

Let what go exactly?

 

 

A player like Alonso is of great value in any modern system.

 

Instinctive coverage LB's with hands to make a play on the football are defensive gold.

 

Yes, teams are wearing out Brown and Bradham with coverage responsibilities.

 

They are best going forward and Schwartz defense dared teams to run and forced them to do it up the middle.

 

Getting McCoy wasn't the problem........giving up too much and then paying him as if he were a free agent coming off a career year rather than a high mileage back coming off of a down year were the issues.

 

Alonso has another ligament issue this season......but I don't believe the Bills knew it was going to happen and I am almost entirely certain.....based on past moves with DeSean Jackson and Evan Mathis......that McCoy was going to be otherwise released.... and at worst could have been had for a late round pick.

 

Instead they traded a high ceiling chip for negotiating rights.

Were Rex's LB's in NY great coverage LB's? I don't really know.

Edited October 22, 2015 by FireChan

[BADOLBILZ]

Look, it's another poster who doesn't realize if he doesn't want to talk about something, he doesn't have to post in the topic. Maybe I should have brought up a topic about Rex and the defense, or TT vs. EJ, those topics are very fresh.

 

Let what go exactly?

Were Rex's LB's in NY great coverage LB's? I don't really know.

 

Being smart/instinctive was a requirement.

 

Bradham is kind of a cement head.

 

He really struggled in Pettine's system and is quite possibly the guy who is most confused about his assignments in this defense.

 

Brown is a smart player but just isn't that good laterally or dropping into coverage.

[John from Riverside]

I thought Kiko was EXTREMELY talented......he was a very good cover linebacker and gave QBs fits

 

however

 

THere was something about his play (at MLB) that was starting to really concern me in the latter part of the season.....I mostly attibuted it to a rookie who was not used to a 16 game NFL season......starting to overpursue.....starting to not be able to get off blocks

 

Then the Knee injury

 

I would like to a have a Kiko Alonzo type linebacker on this team right now....(although I think we might have one in Randal Johnson....he is playing on special teams I hope he starts getting more playing time eventually)

Edited October 22, 2015 by John from Hemet

[White Linen]

It was an excellent move. McCoy is the type of player to help you get to the playoffs and Kiko isn't.

[Doc]

Kiko is damaged goods.

[FireChan]

It was an excellent move. McCoy is the type of player to help you get to the playoffs and Kiko isn't.

Freedom!

[Rob's House]

So you'd rather have an injury prone LB over an all-pro RB? How useful is he in street clothes?

[BADOLBILZ]

I thought Kiko was EXTREMELY talented......he was a very good cover linebacker and gave QBs fits

 

however

 

THere was something about his play (at MLB) that was starting to really concern me in the latter part of the season.....I mostly attibuted it to a rookie who was not used to a 16 game NFL season......starting to overpursue.....starting to not be able to get off blocks

 

Then the Knee injury

 

I would like to a have a Kiko Alonzo type linebacker on this team right now....(although I think we might have one in Randal Johnson....he is playing on special teams I hope he starts getting more playing time eventually)

 

 

It was concerning that he was often the only actual LB on the second level of the field.....Hughes/Lawson and Mario were basically pass rushers almost all the time.

 

It got to the point where he was clearly having to guess to have a good chance of being in position to cover 4 gaps he was responsible for.

 

The situation was becoming ridiculous late in the year.

 

Bradham not being able to handle the responsibilities was a huge problem that year.

 

It was expected that he was going to make a big step up.

 

Dumbing down with Schwartz created Nigel......who then made one of my all-time favorite tackles when he slammed the Jets RB Ivory to the ground by his lady locks.

 

This team needs to get back to dumbed-down defense.......Rex D is not only ineffective at keeping teams off the scoreboard it is also boring as f*ck.....unless you live to watch ONLY the two boundary corners play man up.

[FireChan]

So you'd rather have an injury prone LB over an all-pro RB? How useful is he in street clothes?

You are a real bastard.

[Alphadawg7]

Let me preface this topic with saying that I do, and did, agree with the Alonso trade. We have all seen what Shady can do when healthy, and even hobbled on this team, he showed a lot this past game against the Bengals, without much threat from the passing game.

 

But. Did we devalue him a little too much? Remembering the way he was used in Pettine's system, when he had a DROY runner-up season, he seemed to be something this team could really use. A LB that was used to great effect against the pass, who was one of the chief players when disguising blitzes, or showing blitzes and dropping off in coverage.

 

I watched this (I know it's a highlight video, but it's the best I can do.)

 

 

I noted Kiko's position in a lot of his highlights. Dropping into the middle of the field to protect against quick-ins and slants, he produced. Obviously the TO well dried up early as it is wont to do, but still. His effectiveness on short to intermediate routes across the middle was apparent. He wasn't a player without his negatives, namely getting swallowed up on run blocks. But would he have fit this system perhaps better than Bradham or Brown, two LB's who haven't had a great year in pass coverage, a similar system that he excelled in back in 2013 (even if he wasn't perfect)?

 

Again, reiterating that I still agree with the trade. And even if he is a better fit, I still would've pulled the trigger on the trade. But I thought I wouldn't notice much of a drop off.

 

And let's ignore injuries for a second, because this topic will quickly die if the only dialogue is "injury-prone, couldn't help in street clothes."

 

 

Its no secret I was high on Kiko as I was singing his praises on draft night. But, for an athletic LB to have had 2 major knee operations, one to each knee, before his sophomore season in the NFL is something that can't be disregarded when evaluation his future. His value is based on his mobility and athletic ability, and after he blew his other knee out, his future certainly was a little more murky as to how he would come back.

 

Ignoring that fact, which you really can't but I will do anyway, and focusing on the talent alone, Kiko is a promising players, always has been. I will say, Kiko tailed off quite a bit towards his end of his rookie season and definitely at his best in the first half the season IMO. That being said, its to be expected from rookies adjusting to playing 20 games between preseason and reg season.

 

Would I have liked to have kept him, sure, just like everyone else. However, at the time of the trade, he definitely seemed very expendable considering the other promising LB's we had coming off impressive seasons. And he brought back an Elite talent at RB to help an offense which was the sore spot the year before. So, at the time of trade and as we sit now, we definitely got the better end of the deal trading a LB with 2 bad knees and only one season under his belt for an Elite overall player and RB in McCoy. Given Kiko is out for the season again, the trade appears more like trade rape then us just getting a good deal, and there is what lies the risk with dealing with a player who's already had a major surgery on both knees.

 

Time of Trade, Bills grade A, Philly grade B- (if Kiko wasnt coming off knee surgery, would be an A, you can't get an A ever when trading for a player who hasn't seen the field yet after blowing out his knee).

 

Now, Bills grade A+++, Philly grade C- (I wont give it lower than a C- because they are fine at RB and Kiko contributed a little this season and still could potentially come back and still be a good player next year).

[John from Riverside]

 

 

It was concerning that he was often the only actual LB on the second level of the field.....Hughes/Lawson and Mario were basically pass rushers almost all the time.

 

It got to the point where he was clearly having to guess to have a good chance of being in position to cover 4 gaps he was responsible for.

 

The situation was becoming ridiculous late in the year.

 

Bradham not being able to handle the responsibilities was a huge problem that year.

 

It was expected that he was going to make a big step up.

 

Dumbing down with Schwartz created Nigel......who then made one of my all-time favorite tackles when he slammed the Jets RB Ivory to the ground by his lady locks.

 

This team needs to get back to dumbed-down defense.......Rex D is not only ineffective at keeping teams off the scoreboard it is also boring as f*ck.....unless you live to watch ONLY the two boundary corners play man up.

I am just not understanding the reasoning behind it.....last years team was still effective against the run AND you got the sense that they were going to dominate every play

 

Is it because they dont trust their safeties? THat is a possibility. I think that Gilmroe and Darby have shown that they can lock down at corner.......

 

WHile I want to see offensive linemen drafted in this next draft....it would not shock me at all if our 1st pick this next draft is a safety

[BADOLBILZ]

So you'd rather have an injury prone LB over an all-pro RB? How useful is he in street clothes?

 

 

I am going to go out on a limb and disagree with your assertion that Shady is going to be all-pro this season.

 

 

 

Or ever as a Buffalo Bill.

 

Or ever again.

 

For any team.

 

But we couldn't have known that or seen any decline there, right?

 

But we knew Kiko would be inactive much of this season in Philly due to a different ligament injury.

 

We just knew that because, you know, he didn't play every single defensive snap as a rookie and hadn't recovered from an ACL tear years earlier and string together some outstanding seasons.

[John from Riverside]

 

 

I am going to go out on a limb and disagree with your assertion that Shady is going to be all-pro this season.

 

 

 

Or ever as a Buffalo Bill.

 

Or ever again.

 

For any team.

 

But we couldn't have known that or seen any decline there, right?

 

But we knew Kiko would be inactive much of this season in Philly due to a different ligament injury.

 

We just knew that because, you know, he didn't play every single defensive snap as a rookie and hadn't recovered from an ACL tear years earlier and string together some outstanding seasons.

I really did not expect kiko to get injured.....I thought what might happen is he might not be the same player after the injury that kept him out all of LAST season....but I expected (and still expect) Kiko to be a fine player

 

I think it is way to early to make these predictions on Shady....no he will not be a all pro player this year....but he has been relatively healthy over his career and there is a good chance he is right back to form next season.....ESPECIALLY if we get our OL figured out

[The Frankish Reich]

The defense is missing the big playmaking linebackers and safeties this year -- think Byrd, Kiko, even Searcy. Aaron Williams looked like he could be that guy before he got hurt, but I'm really not expecting him back this year. Kiko had a fantastic rookie year -- one of the most entertaining (and effective) defensive players we've had in years. Shame about the knees ...

[BADOLBILZ]

I really did not expect kiko to get injured.....I thought what might happen is he might not be the same player after the injury that kept him out all of LAST season....but I expected (and still expect) Kiko to be a fine player

 

I think it is way to early to make these predictions on Shady....no he will not be a all pro player this year....but he has been relatively healthy over his career and there is a good chance he is right back to form next season.....ESPECIALLY if we get our OL figured out

 

 

Yeah it's not like Kiko has had a litany of various injuries like Sammy Watkins.

 

As for Shady........I am very interested to see if he brings his A game this week.

 

In week 2 he played like a completely different player against NE......a high profile national game.

 

Not saying All Pro......but he looked good.

 

Also found it interesting that once the Bengals game became high profile he suddenly got healthy a couple weeks earlier than his own projections and played well......albeit against a very leaky run defense.

 

This game is yawner in terms of attention.

 

Will he come out and stink it up like he did against Indy?

 

Is he, in fact not as good as he once was.....but as good once as he ever was....and can only bring that out in certain highly motivated circumstances?

 

Adds a little intrigue for me.

[Doc]

 

 

Yeah it's not like Kiko has had a litany of various injuries like Sammy Watkins.

 

As for Shady........I am very interested to see if he brings his A game this week.

 

In week 2 he played like a completely different player against NE......a high profile national game.

 

Not saying All Pro......but he looked good.

 

Also found it interesting that once the Bengals game became high profile he suddenly got healthy a couple weeks earlier than his own projections and played well......albeit against a very leaky run defense.

 

This game is yawner in terms of attention.

 

Will he come out and stink it up like he did against Indy?

 

Is he, in fact not as good as he once was.....but as good once as he ever was....and can only bring that out in certain highly motivated circumstances?

 

Adds a little intrigue for me.

 

[klos63]

The defense is missing the big playmaking linebackers and safeties this year -- think Byrd, Kiko, even Searcy. Aaron Williams looked like he could be that guy before he got hurt, but I'm really not expecting him back this year. Kiko had a fantastic rookie year -- one of the most entertaining (and effective) defensive players we've had in years. Shame about the knees ...

This has been beaten to death, but he had a fantastic start to his rookie year, was pretty much average at best from game 5 and beyond. Was a big reason teams ran for 200 yards a game against us at times. We were much better last year when he was not in the lineup.

[jumbalaya]

trading a LB that never gets on the field for a RB that never gets on the field is a zero sum proposition.

 

add to it a wr that never gets on the field who cost 2 No. 1 and a no. 4 pick equals a 3-3 team that is playing like a 1-5 team.

 

oh, for the days of ryan fitz, we are in a world of hurt.

[The Frankish Reich]

This has been beaten to death, but he had a fantastic start to his rookie year, was pretty much average at best from game 5 and beyond. Was a big reason teams ran for 200 yards a game against us at times. We were much better last year when he was not in the lineup.

Didn't he play every defensive down that year? He was always undersized for a linebacker (I think Kam Chancellor is bigger than Kiko), so it's not surprising he wore down, particularly since he didn't have the complementary run stoppers around him like Spikes, who came last year when Kiko was injured.

[klos63]

Didn't he play every defensive down that year? He was always undersized for a linebacker (I think Kam Chancellor is bigger than Kiko), so it's not surprising he wore down, particularly since he didn't have the complementary run stoppers around him like Spikes, who came last year when Kiko was injured.

so you are agreeing with me?

 

Yes, he played every down his rookie season, not much at all since then.

[Deranged Rhino]

 

[Rob's House]

 

 

I am going to go out on a limb and disagree with your assertion that Shady is going to be all-pro this season.

 

 

 

Or ever as a Buffalo Bill.

 

Or ever again.

 

For any team.

 

But we couldn't have known that or seen any decline there, right?

 

But we knew Kiko would be inactive much of this season in Philly due to a different ligament injury.

 

We just knew that because, you know, he didn't play every single defensive snap as a rookie and hadn't recovered from an ACL tear years earlier and string together some outstanding seasons.

I was trolling FC.

[mattsox]

Kiko is damaged goods.

So is about 30% of the Bills team, including Shady...

[BADOLBILZ]

 

 

It's not a good sign when other people who are habitually wrong....like Doc....... are agreeing with you but cheers to that I guess.

 

So far I've been spot-on with Shady......and my observation that he might need a stage to get motivated at this point in his career/bank account......beyond damning if so.......is as yet, a point still in play.

[BuffaloBillsForever]

Even in hindsight with injuries and all I would still rather have Kiko than McCoy and his egregious contract.

Edited October 22, 2015 by BuffaloBillsForever

[Deranged Rhino]

 

 

It's not a good sign when other people who are habitually wrong....like Doc....... are agreeing with you but cheers to that I guess.

 

So far I've been spot-on with Shady......and my observation that he might need a stage to get motivated at this point in his career/bank account......beyond damning if so.......is as yet, a point still in play.

 

 

"Spot on" includes assigning your belief that he only shows up for big games? That's been proven?

Nah, it's complete speculation.

[Doc]

So is about 30% of the Bills team, including Shady...

 

He wasn't when they trade for him.

It's not a good sign when other people who are habitually wrong....like Doc....... are agreeing with you but cheers to that I guess.

 

So far I've been spot-on with Shady......and my observation that he might need a stage to get motivated at this point in his career/bank account......beyond damning if so.......is as yet, a point still in play.

 

No, you've been vomiting forth your "Shady will play when it's a big game" stupidity so I responded appropriately.

[klos63]

Even in hindsight with injuries and all I would still rather have Kiko than McCoy and his egregious contract.

Kiko basically hasn't played since his rookie season, missing all of last season and most of this season so far, but you would still rather have him? And he wasn't very good most of his rookie season, people still ignore how poorly he played after the first month of so of the season.

[BADOLBILZ]

 

 

"Spot on" includes assigning your belief that he only shows up for big games? That's been proven?

Nah, it's complete speculation.

 

He gets $26M of that $40M whether he brings his A game at all the next 2 seasons or not.....so maybe you should consider yourself lucky when he puts up one of his 80 yard games.

 

We really need a "glass-half-full" emoticon for you, geez.

 

BTW, I didn't say it's been proven.......I said it's a point still in play regarding the merits of giving a player who is in decline....and probably knows it to some extent......a FAT new contract with 2/3 of it guaranteed!

 

Think how far some of that money would have gone if they just picked up CJ2K off the street.......he's on pace for about 1300 yards and a 4.8 average.

 

As Deion said with CJ2K.....when the checks stop coming, you start running.

[Deranged Rhino]

 

He gets $26M of that $40M whether he brings his A game at all the next 2 seasons or not.....so maybe you should consider yourself lucky when he puts up one of his 80 yard games.

 

We really need a "glass-half-full" emoticon for you, geez.

 

BTW, I didn't say it's been proven.......I said it's a point still in play regarding the merits of giving a player who is in decline....and probably knows it to some extent......a FAT new contract with 2/3 of it guaranteed!

 

Think how far some of that money would have gone if they just picked up CJ2K off the street.......he's on pace for about 1300 yards and a 4.8 average.

 

As Deion said with CJ2K.....when the checks stop coming, you start running.

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

With our injury situation, i would take mccoy over alonso. Only way we do well is if mccoy does well this week.

[Deranged Rhino]

With our injury situation, i would take mccoy over alonso. Only way we do well is if mccoy does well this week.

 

Even without the injury situation you take McCoy over Alonso if you're the Bills. A trade straight up for a top 3 RB in exchange for a LB that never saw the field the year before? That's a no brainer in my book.

[Maury Ballstein]

Alonzo was good for 5 games.

 

All the running backs are too tough for him to handle.

 

McCoy all day, hope he can get/stay healthy though.