Enough incoherence/whining from WGR re: EJ

[OCinBuffalo]

I have listened to WGR very sparingly over the last week, however, each and every time I have I heard the same 4-5 statements made by multiple hosts, with regard to their coverage of EJ this preseason.

 

These statements are either bereft of logic, or, on par with the whining of a 2nd grader. Once again I heard Jeremy White re-hash this crap this morning, and normally I wouldn't care, but, enough is enough. So let's get to it:

 

1. "We have been getting emails and tweets that our coverage has been biased against EJ"

 

You don't say? Well, this morining Sal Capaccio said "We aren't as bad off at QB as was expected. It's a tribute to Greg Roman being able to get these QBs ready to play....EVEN EJ." Ah, when you say schit like this, what, exactly, do you expect listeners to conclude?

 

Hey WGR? Fans have observed a clear pattern of behavior from you. Why the F else are you getting the response? Mass Hysteria? A conspiracy to troll you? No. You are causing this problem with comments like that, and instead of introspection, it's blame the fans?

 

I literally heard...what you say you aren't doing...in 2 separate instances this MORNING!, never mind this past week.

 

I like Sal, but, Sal? You chose those words, not the fans. Why throw in the "...even EJ"? Greg Roman has done a good job with all 3 QBs. Well, that is supposedly Sal's premise. Greg Roman is being paid a compliment...so why is the "...even EJ" necessary? It is not. It's totally irrelevent...so why say it? Answer: bias, supporting the choice, made long ago, that EJ == Bad.

 

2. "Either we are liars, or, we don't know how to do our jobs".

 

Holy drama batman. Yes, arguing to the extreme isn't a logical fallacy or anything. Follow that link fellas.

 

Nobody is accusing you of being liars. Some of us have been accusing some of you of not doing your jobs for a decade+ (anybody want to have a meat draft? ) so this is nothing new, and not specific to EJ coverage.

 

The simple fact is that these aren't the only 2 outcomes, and to suggest otherwise is childish. There is all sorts of research that shows the influenece one person or group can have on others. Both confidence bias, and choice-supportive bias are very real, every day occurances that are much more likely to be the culprits here, than intentional deceit, conspiracy, or staggering incompetence. Groupthink is also infinitely more likely, especially in this case, since the QB issue is so acute. Everyone knows the problem, its importance, and thus fears making a mistake, and its consequences, as both will be maginfied. It's much safer, and natural, for everybody to run in the herd together, and nobody strays too far away. This is prime Groupthink territory. Do the reading.

 

So, please, enough with the incoherent emoting. Nobody is accusing you of anything...other than not seeing your own bias. And that's perfectly normal. IF you could see the bias, you wouldn't have it(unless you really did have an agenda).

 

In ALL cases, liar/incompetent aren't the only 2 possible outcomes. I'm not sure WGR's coverage is biased, because I haven't listened enough. But,it sure smells like it given what I've heard in the last 24, especially the statements I've bolded.

 

3. "We do this for a job"

 

What are we doing? Running through EVERY logical fallacy? Now it's Argument from Authority? Thus, this thread is necessary.

 

Do you really want to have this conversation? How about with X and Os, or draft, or other heavy content posters here? Why is it that every time I write a heavy content post here...my topic is discussed by WGR the next day?(Most recent example: 1985 Bears-->46 Defense == WGR articles and air devoted < 24 hours after my post.)

 

This is 2 Bills Drive, and I have news: WE do this for a job too, often 2-3x better than you, and have for years. The only real difference is that we don't get paid, and we aren't "required by our job to watch the Jets game where EJ was horrible". We'd do that anyway. The WGR host/reporter/contributor who thinks they can go toe to toe on Bills Football with any heavy duty poster here is fooling themselves.

 

According to some respected posters here: WGR has an anti-EJ bias. These people have a long history of being right about this team. WGR is just starting to get some football credibility with Sal Capaccio(ahem, see? I have no bias), who actually knows the Xs and Os well enough to discuss them(unlike others at WGR who refuse to learn the game, and defend that by telling us that Xs and Os are: boring...to Bills fans, of all people. /facepalm Hint: This is not Miami.)

 

WGR: You have a problem. Stop blaming others. Don't argue from authority. Especially when you haven't earned said authority. Your work has been shoddy at best...which...is WHY 2 Bills Drive exists.

 

4. "This is coming from some weird place amongst the fans".

 

Um no, the reason fans are saying WGR's coverage is biased: is because it's empirical.

 

Get over yourselves. Fans simply don't care that much about WGR. The notion that this started in some evil little corner of the internet/twitterverse, dedicated solely to the downfall of WGR, is patently retarded.

 

The fans are responding to: you, WGR. If you don't want to hear the calls and see the emails? Simple: clean up your act. Be conscious of the feedback, aware that you DO say things like "...even EJ"...and make the necessary corrections. Realize that people aren't pointing this out because there's something wrong with them. They are pointing it out because there's something wrong with you. As soon as your behavior changes, the response will change.

 

I am tired of the whining as well. You ARE getting paid to do a job. We AREN'T getting paid to listen to you. I am sick and tired of hearing you B word about doing a job you signed up for, and all that comes with it. Keep your whining to yourselves, look inside, realize you are the cause of your own problem, and, how's about resolving to do a better job?

 

Beats the hell out of more incoherent/weak arguments and whining.

 

5. My personal favorite "We are reading the TEA leaves from the coaches/We are merely reacting to what the coaches are saying"

 

Q1: Who asks the coaches the questions?

A1: The media.

C1: What the "coaches are saying" is driven mostly by the media's questions and how they are framed.

QED. The notion that the media is merely reacting in this situation, is patently retarded. Especially when we consider the fact that "reading the TEA leaves" is the basis for most of this analysis.

 

WGR: You are telling us that most of your work is based solely on interpretation....EVERYWHERE! Interpretation of what you see on the field, interpretation of what the coaches are saying, interpretation of how EJ answers the question "How do you expect things to go at your next team?" (No bias in that question at all)

 

NOTHING here is empirical. ALL is based on interpretation...and WGR people are trying to tell us that there's 0 chance for bias?

 

Here's what I do for a job: tell people like WGR that they are the opposite of right, because this environment is the MOST likely to produce bias. Enough delusion, dissonance, problem denial and shifting the blame to fans as though they are the cause.

 

Enough whining and blaming fans for merely responding to what they can clearly see is broken.

Edited August 25, 2015 by OCinBuffalo

[DrDawkinstein]

I have a million things I'd like to say about WGR and their EJ coverage, but all I'll say is: Once again, you are correct, OC.

 

Yesterday afternoon was unlistenable, as their takes on EJ were worse than what the trolls put out here. And I mean real trolls, not just people that dont like EJ.

[26CornerBlitz]

I have a million things I'd like to say about WGR and their EJ coverage, but all I'll say is: Once again, you are correct, OC.

 

Yesterday afternoon was unlistenable, as their takes on EJ were worse than what the trolls put out here. And I mean real trolls, not just people that dont like EJ.

You mean like Schopp asking on Twitter if fans who defend or support EJ are old Losman fans? WTH does Schopp even know about football and NFL quarterbacking? Not much from what I've heard from him.

[The Wiz]

My favorite was when someone was talking and Schoop continually said "EJ is terrible, he's terrible, he's terrible..." talking over the guy. Then the guy starts to talk over him and complains that the caller is unable to have a back and forth conversation.

Edited August 25, 2015 by The Wiz

[PromoTheRobot]

Most of Schopp's opinions come from others. I'll bet he hasn't watched 10 minutes total of actual camp. It turns into an echo chamber. Also, Schopp is only interested in controversy, fodder for his ponderous show. His last segment with Sal he asked four questions about Roman and Rex disagreeing on a starting QB. Sal kept answering him and Schopp kept asking the same thing a different way.

[YoloinOhio]

I don't listen to Schopp anymore. He's brutal.

[PromoTheRobot]

I don't listen to Schopp anymore. He's brutal.

Try this drinking game: Take a sip every time he says the word "I." You'll pass out within 3 minutes.

[thebandit27]

The only time, and I mean only time, that I listen to WGR is when I want to hear post-game comments from coaches/players, or when I'm listening to play-by-play since I cannot watch the game.

 

There is absolutely no other reason to do so...I cannot fathom why anyone does.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

Nice post.... Heard schlock's rant yesterday. He got into it with a caller stating EJ is terrible several times, a stance that was clearly supported with some emotional distain for any other conclusion.

 

Wanted to call and point out that all the "experts" that concluded the same didn't include Whaley for one, who required up front effort be expended in developing Manuel.

 

Bulldog as always is along for the ride, although he gave EJ some benefit of the doubt early on until he was sucked in by the undertow of the others bias.

 

Yeah at this point Manuel very well might be dead and buried as an NFL prospect, but the jubilant tap dancing on the grave part makes them just pedestrian hacks lucky enough to stumble into an ok job in an uncompetitive market.

[Peter]

WGR does seem to be going overboard with the slant against EJ -- although not as much as Joe B who really seems to have a bug up his arse about EJ.

 

It has been funny to read tweets about the practices and observe the slant that different guys have taken about EJ depending on their own narrative.

 

I have not been to any of the practices, but I have watched the preseason games. I think each QB has played well. All I can believe at this point are my own eyes. EJ showed a lot of leadership in that game winning drive - he seemed to will the team to score.

 

EJ had been running for his life in the first few series. There was no protection at all. Yet, some seemed to blame EJ for the lack of production in those series.

 

I cannot say who should be the starting QB. Nevertheless, I can say with 100% certainty that many in the media are not giving him a fair evaluation. I also think that EJ is not a finished product and there is NO reason to give up on him. We should continue to develop him as a QB regardless of whether he is the starting QB.

 

Finally, EJ is a very impressive guy. He works hard, apparently wants to be with the Bills, and gets along with his teammates. There is no reason to give up on the guy. I do not know what his ceiling is, but I am sure that, given his work ethic, he will do whatever he can to reach his potential.

Edited August 25, 2015 by Peter

[Peter]

I did notice that Howard and Jeremy (whom I enjoy listening to "most" of the time) were pretty sensitive about this subject this morning.[

 

I find it hilarious when the media (particularly the usual suspects at TBN) have such thin skin. In all walks of life, the guys who love dishing it out cannot take it themselves.

[LB3]

Well done OC.

[dubs]

I'm not a fan of those two at all, especially Schoop. That being said, I tend to agree with them on this point. I was very surprised at all the love EJ has been getting on this board. My eyes tell me he's improved, but still struggles making decisions, especially in the face of pressure. He may get away with that against second and third string defenses, but against starting defenses he's going to be in trouble. I also thing he still has a tendency to either sail balls or throw at receivers feet.

 

Don't get me wrong, I like EJ a lot and am very encouraged that he's playing better, but think he needs more time to improve and shouldn't be in the conversation for starting QB. At this point, I think they need to focus on Taylor and Cassell and get ready for the season and keep EJ on the bench for one more year, barring a catastrophe.

[Peter]

To those here and in the media who comment that EJ was doing it against second and third stringers:

 

1) EJ only can play with the cards that he is dealt;

 

2) EJ was playing with second and third stringers - and in some cases 5th and 6th stringers.

[The Wiz]

I'm not a fan of those two at all, especially Schoop. That being said, I tend to agree with them on this point. I was very surprised at all the love EJ has been getting on this board. My eyes tell me he's improved, but still struggles making decisions, especially in the face of pressure. He may get away with that against second and third string defenses, but against starting defenses he's going to be in trouble. I also thing he still has a tendency to either sail balls or throw at receivers feet.

 

Don't get me wrong, I like EJ a lot and am very encouraged that he's playing better, but think he needs more time to improve and shouldn't be in the conversation for starting QB. At this point, I think they need to focus on Taylor and Cassell and get ready for the season and keep EJ on the bench for one more year, barring a catastrophe.

No one is really saying he should be the starter (sure there are some but I don't think people are really expecting him to be the starter). The dig is when Schoop just goes on about EJ being terrible and will never be good and anyone who says otherwise is wrong. I don't care if that's what he thinks but everyone else being wrong is was drives me crazy.

[Punching Bag]

Best response is to contact advertisers, as I have done, and tell them you listen to other stations because of poor quality of WGR staff.

[dubs]

No one is really saying he should be the starter (sure there are some but I don't think people are really expecting him to be the starter). The dig is when Schoop just goes on about EJ being terrible and will never be good and anyone who says otherwise is wrong. I don't care if that's what he thinks but everyone else being wrong is was drives me crazy.

I agree with you about Schoop. He's a buffoon. The way he treats his callers is aggravating.

 

I have heard a ton of people say that he should get a chance to start in Pitt though. I think that's a mistake (unless they are just going to be unique and sit most of their key starters to avoid injury - which I wouldn't disagree with at all). At this point I think the EJ ship has sailed for starting this year and to waste time evaluating him further would take away time getting the actual starter ready for the season. It sounds like I am making contradictory points, but I am not. Start EJ if its because most starters are sitting, not to give him a chance to win the job.

[A Dog Named Kelso]

To those here and in the media who comment that EJ was doing it against second and third stringers:

 

1) EJ only can play with the cards that he is dealt;

 

2) EJ was playing with second and third stringers - and in some cases 5th and 6th stringers.

I think a lot of it is that he may be blamed for what could be the short coming of the players around him. We do not know. I really do not know if EJ is good or not because I am only told of his mistakes for the most part. I would like to see the same rhetoric toward the other two or none at all. I think that is the biggest problem with WGR and the fact they can not tell they are doing is almost as annoying.

[The Poojer]

I liked everything you said, it was very well thought out, then you used the word 'retarded' and not that is all I can focus on....

 

I have listened to WGR very sparingly over the last week, however, each and every time I have I heard the same 4-5 statements made by multiple hosts, with regard to their coverage of EJ this preseason.

 

These statements are either bereft of logic, or, on par with the whining of a 2nd grader. Once again I heard Jeremy White re-hash this crap this morning, and normally I wouldn't care, but, enough is enough. So let's get to it:

 

1. "We have been getting emails and tweets that our coverage has been biased against EJ"

 

You don't say? Well, this morining Sal Capaccio said "We aren't as bad off at QB as was expected. It's a tribute to Greg Roman being able to get these QBs ready to play....EVEN EJ." Ah, when you say schit like this, what, exactly, do you expect listeners to conclude?

 

Hey WGR? Fans have observed a clear pattern of behavior from you. Why the F else are you getting the response? Mass Hysteria? A conspiracy to troll you? No. You are causing this problem with comments like that, and instead of introspection, it's blame the fans?

 

I literally heard...what you say you aren't doing...in 2 separate instances this MORNING!, never mind this past week.

 

I like Sal, but, Sal? You chose those words, not the fans. Why throw in the "...even EJ"? Greg Roman has done a good job with all 3 QBs. Well, that is supposedly Sal's premise. Greg Roman is being paid a compliment...so why is the "...even EJ" necessary? It is not. It's totally irrelevent...so why say it? Answer: bias, supporting the choice, made long ago, that EJ == Bad.

 

2. "Either we are liars, or, we don't know how to do our jobs".

 

Holy drama batman. Yes, arguing to the extreme isn't a logical fallacy or anything. Follow that link fellas.

 

Nobody is accusing you of being liars. Some of us have been accusing some of you of not doing your jobs for a decade+ (anybody want to have a meat draft? ) so this is nothing new, and not specific to EJ coverage.

 

The simple fact is that these aren't the only 2 outcomes, and to suggest otherwise is childish. There is all sorts of research that shows the influenece one person or group can have on others. Both confidence bias, and choice-supportive bias are very real, every day occurances that are much more likely to be the culprits here, than intentional deceit, conspiracy, or staggering incompetence. Groupthink is also infinitely more likely, especially in this case, since the QB issue is so acute. Everyone knows the problem, its importance, and thus fears making a mistake, and its consequences, as both will be maginfied. It's much safer, and natural, for everybody to run in the herd together, and nobody strays too far away. This is prime Groupthink territory. Do the reading.

 

So, please, enough with the incoherent emoting. Nobody is accusing you of anything...other than not seeing your own bias. And that's perfectly normal. IF you could see the bias, you wouldn't have it(unless you really did have an agenda).

 

In ALL cases, liar/incompetent aren't the only 2 possible outcomes. I'm not sure WGR's coverage is biased, because I haven't listened enough. But,it sure smells like it given what I've heard in the last 24, especially the statements I've bolded.

 

3. "We do this for a job"

 

What are we doing? Running through EVERY logical fallacy? Now it's Argument from Authority? Thus, this thread is necessary.

 

Do you really want to have this conversation? How about with X and Os, or draft, or other heavy content posters here? Why is it that every time I write a heavy content post here...my topic is discussed by WGR the next day?(Most recent example: 1985 Bears-->46 Defense == WGR articles and air devoted < 24 hours after my post.)

 

This is 2 Bills Drive, and I have news: WE do this for a job too, often 2-3x better than you, and have for years. The only real difference is that we don't get paid, and we aren't "required by our job to watch the Jets game where EJ was horrible". We'd do that anyway. The WGR host/reporter/contributor who thinks they can go toe to toe on Bills Football with any heavy duty poster here is fooling themselves.

 

According to some respected posters here: WGR has an anti-EJ bias. These people have a long history of being right about this team. WGR is just starting to get some football credibility with Sal Capaccio(ahem, see? I have no bias), who actually knows the Xs and Os well enough to discuss them(unlike others at WGR who refuse to learn the game, and defend that by telling us that Xs and Os are: boring...to Bills fans, of all people. /facepalm Hint: This is not Miami.)

 

WGR: You have a problem. Stop blaming others. Don't argue from authority. Especially when you haven't earned said authority. Your work has been shoddy at best...which...is WHY 2 Bills Drive exists.

 

4. "This is coming from some weird place amongst the fans".

 

Um no, the reason fans are saying WGR's coverage is biased: is because it's empirical.

 

Get over yourselves. Fans simply don't care that much about WGR. The notion that this started in some evil little corner of the internet/twitterverse, dedicated solely to the downfall of WGR, is patently retarded.

 

The fans are responding to: you, WGR. If you don't want to hear the calls and see the emails? Simple: clean up your act. Be conscious of the feedback, aware that you DO say things like "...even EJ"...and make the necessary corrections. Realize that people aren't pointing this out because there's something wrong with them. They are pointing it out because there's something wrong with you. As soon as your behavior changes, the response will change.

 

I am tired of the whining as well. You ARE getting paid to do a job. We AREN'T getting paid to listen to you. I am sick and tired of hearing you B word about doing a job you signed up for, and all that comes with it. Keep your whining to yourselves, look inside, realize you are the cause of your own problem, and, how's about resolving to do a better job?

 

Beats the hell out of more incoherent/weak arguments and whining.

 

5. My personal favorite "We are reading the TEA leaves from the coaches/We are merely reacting to what the coaches are saying"

 

Q1: Who asks the coaches the questions?

A1: The media.

C1: What the "coaches are saying" is driven mostly by the media's questions and how they are framed.

QED. The notion that the media is merely reacting in this situation, is patently retarded. Especially when we consider the fact that "reading the TEA leaves" is the basis for most of this analysis.

 

WGR: You are telling us that most of your work is based solely on interpretation....EVERYWHERE! Interpretation of what you see on the field, interpretation of what the coaches are saying, interpretation of how EJ answers the question "How do you expect things to go at your next team?" (No bias in that question at all)

 

NOTHING here is empirical. ALL is based on interpretation...and WGR people are trying to tell us that there's 0 chance for bias?

 

Here's what I do for a job: tell people like WGR that they are the opposite of right, because this environment is the MOST likely to produce bias. Enough delusion, dissonance, problem denial and shifting the blame to fans as though they are the cause.

 

Enough whining and blaming fans for merely responding to what they can clearly see is broken.

[CardinalScotts]

Most of Schopp's opinions come from others. I'll bet he hasn't watched 10 minutes total of actual camp. It turns into an echo chamber. Also, Schopp is only interested in controversy, fodder for his ponderous show. His last segment with Sal he asked four questions about Roman and Rex disagreeing on a starting QB. Sal kept answering him and Schopp kept asking the same thing a different way.

thank god other also hear what I hear..guy is a turd in so many ways - I usually just check in for Sal- that guy is too good for their station

Edited August 25, 2015 by CardinalScotts