1billsfan Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 Orton was 12 but that was quite the convoluted way to say orton has 2 more tds in 2 fewer games.... I suppose that in a portion of a season vs an entire career sounds like a bigger gap though. Especially when you don't quantify the number of tds Actually EJ Manuel had 19 TDs over 14 games (16 pass, 3 rush) and Kyle Orton had 19 TDs (18 pass, 1 rush) over 12 games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 (edited) Orton is expected to throw more TD's after being in the NFL for 10 years and have been a starting QB before. BTW, What 14 games are you referring to? Orton only started 12 games. Show you them? Bucs went 5-11, 11-5, 4-12, 9-7, 9-7, 3-13, 10-6, 4-12. And that's just one team. Miami went 1-15 then 11-5. If you want me to look up more from the last decade I can but I think already made my point. And no, the second question is would you prefer EJ to be bench for someone to finish with a winning season or to play EJ (possibly finish with a losing season) and know what EJ is/isn't capable of? You had the bolded worded very strangely in the previous post, I was confused. EJ on the bench with the winning season. Why would you not play the guy who can and will throw more TD's than another guy? Will we play Karlos Williams over Freddy this year, because Karlos may be our RB of the future in 4 years? Even if Karlos is worse? I concede that teams can fluctuate. I still think that morale is important. I still think that Kye Williams having his first winning season in his career means something. And I thought Orton played 14. I got them mixed up. He still produced more, and I want the player who can produce the most today as our starter today. I will worry about "finding out what we got" when the young QB competes and wins the job. Orton was 12 but that was quite the convoluted way to say orton has 2 more tds in 2 fewer games.... I suppose that in a portion of a season vs an entire career sounds like a bigger gap though. Especially when you don't quantify the number of tds I didn't wanna have to pull them up. I swear, I need to bookmark EJ's ESPN page. Tannehill showed more promise? Why, because he played more and you were able to see a better body of work? Or was his stats that much better than EJs? I remember reading articles from Miami questioning Tannehill's his future. I personally am glad that Marrone benched EJ last year for the simple fact that he was playing behind a bad offensive line and would have probably damaged him physically and mentally. I know the tweets from Sal and Joe B about EJs play today may have discouraged the anti EJ ensemble that's gathered on this board. And I'm aware that he scorched the 2nd team defense today, but I took two things from their observations. One, why is that Tyrod and Cassel weren't able to succeed against them? Two, was the offensive line able to provide better protection for Manuel in order for him to have such a good showing? Tannehill showed more promise because he stayed healthy, and had a trendline of improvement in his second season EJ in his career (14 games over 2 seasons) has 19 total tds. Orton, in his 10th season, had 19 total tds. He also had a lower qbr than EJ did as a rookie. And Maybin is hanging out with Orton out of the NFL while Jauron has just as good of a shot of being a head coach again as Marrone does. Equating Maybin to Orton is laughable. Orton had a 10 year career in the NFL. Everytime you decide to deride somebody, just remember Maybin. . Also threw. Also, why are you ignoring EJ's QBR as a second year player? Did he not play the second year? Does he only have rookie stats? Edited June 19, 2015 by FireChan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wiz Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 You had the bolded worded very strangely in the previous post, I was confused. EJ on the bench with the winning season. Why would you not play the guy who can and will throw more TD's than another guy? Will we play Karlos Williams over Freddy this year, because Karlos may be our RB of the future in 4 years? Even if Karlos is worse? I concede that teams can fluctuate. I still think that morale is important. I still think that Kye Williams having his first winning season in his career means something. Ok so EJ was 2-2. Orton would have been 5-7 if the pat's weren't in the playoffs already. So they both wen't .500 for arguments sake. How is that different than EJ playing out the year? If you are going to tell me how Orton would have done a better job than EJ then that's your opinion but Orton was bailed out twice against Detroit and Minny. No, I play Karlos to see if he can be the RB of the future. Not hand him the ball 20 times in one season and then determine that he is/isn't the future RB. Kyle might be happy with his first winning season. Meanwhile, the rest of the team and fans, are tired of having a new QB every 8ish games for the past decade. Continuity will help both the QB, offensive line, coaching staff and team (although the coaching has been most of the problem over the past decade). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocky Landing Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 (edited) So you would take a winning season 1 year without a playoff appearance if it meant 2 more years of sub .500? Are you suggesting that we are going to win fewer than eight games this season? You know that you're not talking hypotheticals at this point? Be that as it may, I do NOT believe in sacrificing one season for the next. I don't believe we would be better off had we finished with a losing record, and I believe that building a winning culture will do more to develop this team, and any QB we may on the team, be they on the bench, or on the field. Edited June 19, 2015 by Rocky Landing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 Ok so EJ was 2-2. Orton would have been 5-7 if the pat's weren't in the playoffs already. So they both wen't .500 for arguments sake. How is that different than EJ playing out the year? If you are going to tell me how Orton would have done a better job than EJ then that's your opinion but Orton was bailed out twice against Detroit and Minny. No, I play Karlos to see if he can be the RB of the future. Not hand him the ball 20 times in one season and then determine that he is/isn't the future RB. Kyle might be happy with his first winning season. Meanwhile, the rest of the team and fans, are tired of having a new QB every 8ish games for the past decade. Continuity will help both the QB, offensive line, coaching staff and team (although the coaching has been most of the problem over the past decade). The Pats game counted for 2 games? They "both" did not go .500. Show me your crystal ball that says we lose the Pats game, when we were demolishing their starters by halftime. Orton was an upgrade to EJ for the entire year. Maybe not a massive upgrade, but he was better. Did Orton have garbage games? Absolutely. Did he benefit from our great defense? Absolutely. But he was better. I actually don't know anyone with the ability to watch All-22 who disputes this. No, I play Karlos to see if he can be the RB of the future. Not hand him the ball 20 times in one season and then determine that he is/isn't the future RB. Do you play him over Fred, even if Fred is the better RB this season? Meanwhile, the rest of the team and fans, are tired of having a new QB every 8ish games for the past decade. Continuity will help both the QB, offensive line, coaching staff and team (although the coaching has been most of the problem over the past decade). And there's the assumption that playing EJ Manuel leads to continuity. Which, as you said earlier, is no guarantee, or even likely. Let me get to the most relevant point. Forget the QB comparisons, Orton vs. EJ, 14 starts, win now vs. developing, Marrone sucked arguments. I believe that EJ needed to be benched. He had really lost his confidence. It was aparent in that HOU game. He was reading open recievers and refusing to throw to them. Confidence is crucial to QB's, as you are quite aware. His recievers were all but telling him he sucks, he was getting pummeled, and he was scared. It was the right move to bench him, both to win games that season, as well as to keep him as intact as possible to try to delevop him long term. EJ was in trouble post-Houston and the benching may have prolonged/saved his career. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kota Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 OTA"s will determine who gets the first reps with the 1's at training camp. Don't kid yourself these aren't voluntary and don't mean anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorkington Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 This thread is amazing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wiz Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 (edited) The Pats game counted for 2 games? They "both" did not go .500. Show me your crystal ball that says we lose the Pats game, when we were demolishing their starters by halftime. Orton was an upgrade to EJ for the entire year. Maybe not a massive upgrade, but he was better. Did Orton have garbage games? Absolutely. Did he benefit from our great defense? Absolutely. But he was better. I actually don't know anyone with the ability to watch All-22 who disputes this. No, I play Karlos to see if he can be the RB of the future. Not hand him the ball 20 times in one season and then determine that he is/isn't the future RB. Do you play him over Fred, even if Fred is the better RB this season? Meanwhile, the rest of the team and fans, are tired of having a new QB every 8ish games for the past decade. Continuity will help both the QB, offensive line, coaching staff and team (although the coaching has been most of the problem over the past decade). And there's the assumption that playing EJ Manuel leads to continuity. Which, as you said earlier, is no guarantee, or even likely. Let me get to the most relevant point. Forget the QB comparisons, Orton vs. EJ, 14 starts, win now vs. developing, Marrone sucked arguments. I believe that EJ needed to be benched. He had really lost his confidence. It was aparent in that HOU game. He was reading open recievers and refusing to throw to them. Confidence is crucial to QB's, as you are quite aware. His recievers were all but telling him he sucks, he was getting pummeled, and he was scared. It was the right move to bench him, both to win games that season, as well as to keep him as intact as possible to try to delevop him long term. EJ was in trouble post-Houston and the benching may have prolonged/saved his career. The second pats game was what I was counting. If you were talking about the first game also then 13-7 at halftime brings a new meaning to demolishing a team. If you were talking about the second pats game then I would question why a team already in the playoffs would even try at that point (whether it's the first team or 3rd team). RB is obviously different but no. FJ gets the majority of touches while I still feed Karlos here and there. Unfortunately you can't do that with a QB so it's not exactly a good comparison. Again, I agree with benching EJ when it was done. His receivers may have lost their confidence in EJ but how much confidence can a person have in themselves if the person who is your boss has none in you? EJ was fighting to win a job that was already his with Tuel and Lewis on the roster and then Orton was signed because Marrone threw a **** fit at TC (I'm just guessing that's what the "fire me if you want" was about). Edited June 19, 2015 by The Wiz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocky Landing Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 This thread is amazing. Finally, something we can all agree on. (started on the premise of a completely bogus article, no less...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 The second pats game was what I was counting. If you were talking about the first game also then 13-7 at halftime brings a new meaning to demolishing a team. Especially against Brady. RB is obviously different but no. FJ gets the majority of touches while I still feed Karlos here and there. Unfortunately you can't do that with a QB so it's not exactly a good comparison. Again, I agree with benching EJ when it was done. His receivers may have lost their confidence in EJ but how much confidence can a person have in themselves if the person who is your boss has none in you? EJ was fighting to win a job that was already his with Tuel and Lewis on the roster and then Orton was signed because Marrone threw a **** fit at TC (I'm just guessing that's what the "fire me if you want" was about). I know. You counted it twice. Orton would have been 5-7 if the pat's weren't in the playoffs already. No. He'd be 6-6, but he wasn't and you don't know that he would've lost. Again, I agree with benching EJ when it was done. His receivers may have lost their confidence in EJ but how much confidence can a person have in themselves if the person who is your boss has none in you? EJ was fighting to win a job that was already his with Tuel and Lewis on the roster and then Orton was signed because Marrone threw a **** fit at TC (I'm just guessing that's what the "fire me if you want" was about). If you agreed with the benching, then why are you debating if we were better off with EJ playing? Are you just advocating for a side you don't even believe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wiz Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 I know. You counted it twice. Orton would have been 5-7 if the pat's weren't in the playoffs already. No. He'd be 6-6, but he wasn't and you don't know that he would've lost. Again, I agree with benching EJ when it was done. His receivers may have lost their confidence in EJ but how much confidence can a person have in themselves if the person who is your boss has none in you? EJ was fighting to win a job that was already his with Tuel and Lewis on the roster and then Orton was signed because Marrone threw a **** fit at TC (I'm just guessing that's what the "fire me if you want" was about). If you agreed with the benching, then why are you debating if we were better off with EJ playing? Are you just advocating for a side you don't even believe? You're right. My math is off. He would have been 6-6. Let me know if you honestly think he would have won against them in NE, with Brady, with 1st teamers, with deflated balls. Why not debate it? I think there are games that EJ could have won that Orton didn't. He was able to pull 7 wins. I think EJ could have taken the same games that Orton did. Minus the Packers. Jets (x2), DET, MIN, CLE. That's 5 games not including the Pats finale and Green Bay. Also doesn't include the Chiefs, Dolphins and Raiders. All games that Orton should have won. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFan-4-Ever Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 Ok so EJ was 2-2. Orton would have been 5-7 if the pat's weren't in the playoffs already. So they both wen't .500 for arguments sake. How is that different than EJ playing out the year? If you are going to tell me how Orton would have done a better job than EJ then that's your opinion but Orton was bailed out twice against Detroit and Minny. poor chan (and others) refuse to accept that bit of truth This thread is amazing. IMO the EJ haters / detractors/ bashers are amazing. Or they just love trolling I know. You counted it twice. Orton would have been 5-7 if the pat's weren't in the playoffs already. No. He'd be 6-6, but he wasn't and you don't know that he would've lost. And as I stated had SJ13 and Chandler not had back to back INTs in the T.O. game EJ would have a .500 record !!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Gun Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 poor chan (and others) refuse to accept that bit of truth IMO the EJ haters / detractors/ bashers are amazing. Or they just love trolling And as I stated had SJ13 and Chandler not had back to back INTs in the T.O. game EJ would have a .500 record !!!! Look in the mirror as the exact same can be said for you EJ lovers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 poor chan (and others) refuse to accept that bit of truth IMO the EJ haters / detractors/ bashers are amazing. Or they just love trolling And as I stated had SJ13 and Chandler not had back to back INTs in the T.O. game EJ would have a .500 record !!!! Did you just reference a math error as the "truth?" And you're correct that if you change the outcome of the games, Orton and EJ have the same record. But why stop there? Why not just double EJ's TD total to prove he's better? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Biscuit97 Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 Did you just reference a math error as the "truth?" And you're correct that if you change the outcome of the games, Orton and EJ have the same record. But why stop there? Why not just double EJ's TD total to prove he's better? You're 100% right. Without Orton's 17/ 27 for 158 yards, 0 tds, 1 int, there's no way we beat the Packers. Dude just wins. Look in the mirror as the exact same can be said for you EJ lovers. So you are "lover" if you want a former 1st round QB to work out for the Bills? Brilliant stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloHokie13 Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 You're 100% right. Without Orton's 17/ 27 for 158 yards, 0 tds, 1 int, there's no way we beat the Packers. Dude just wins. So you are "lover" if you want a former 1st round QB to work out for the Bills? Brilliant stuff. And apparently I am a hater for wanting either (or better yet, both) of the 25 year old QB's on the roster to work out for us and having a preference for the one I watched play throughout his (and my) college careers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 You're 100% right. Without Orton's 17/ 27 for 158 yards, 0 tds, 1 int, there's no way we beat the Packers. Dude just wins. So you are "lover" if you want a former 1st round QB to work out for the Bills? Brilliant stuff. 7-5. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Biscuit97 Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 And apparently I am a hater for wanting either (or better yet, both) of the 25 year old QB's on the roster to work out for us and having a preference for the one I watched play throughout his (and my) college careers. LOVER!!! 7-5. Drew Brees went 7-9 last year. Obviously since Orton had the better record, he was better than Brees last year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 LOVER!!! Drew Brees went 7-9 last year. Obviously since Orton had the better record, he was better than Brees last year. Who said that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFan-4-Ever Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 Look in the mirror as the exact same can be said for you EJ lovers. us "LOVERS" are people OPEN to the idea that EJ could be good, or not. It is unproven with such a small sample size of games played. This is his 3rd season let us be open and see if he is a success or failure. FTR We "LOVERS" have not said he is a top 10 QB. contrary to those who claim him a failure Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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