Deranged Rhino Posted June 7, 2015 Share Posted June 7, 2015 I've never subscribed to this line of thought, especially in team sports. Too much is up to chance. If Joseph Addai had fumbled away the SB win would Manning not be great? Put differently, Using this argument you could claim Scotty Pippen was great and Barkley was not, when in reality Pippen wasn't fit to shine Barkley's shoes. And is Barry Switzer a great NFL football coach? He won a SB. Andy Reid never won a SB but I consider him a great coach for consistently having his team in the mix for years despite having generally inferior talent. I agree, but to clarify with the quoted post you used, I was referring to determining coaching / team greatness not individualized play. Clearly there's plenty of undeniably great players in the history of football who don't have rings. The list is far shorter in the NBA. To be considered a great team, or coach, you need rings (at least in an objective sense). To be considered a great player without rings is certainly possible in the NBA, but it's really rare because of how much impact one player can have. Football, baseball, and the larger team sports its a much more common occurrence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LOVEMESOMEBILLS Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 Fred brown noses every coach we get. Just look at his comments after every hire. If Bryce Brown had the same carries or touches fred did,it wouldn`t be close. I`m betting he would have broke a few long runs and had more than a EYE- POPPING 2 tds. I`d like to see Thurm as a rb coach,not a 2nd or 3rd tier rb at best. It is what it is.Bryce got screwed ,Bigger ,FASTER,STronger Younger. Wow one fumble.One. Fred the suck -up. I hope the Pats pick up Brown when he gets cut for the nerd fan favorite.Puppy dogs and butterflies.That is why we lost all those yrs. No running back ,which made the line look worse than it was. I'm beginning to believe you don't comprehend the game of football or team sports. The reason we lost all those years is because of no RB? The Bills had Travis Henry from 2001-2004, Willis McGahee - 2004-2006, Beast Mode - 2007-2010, Fred Jackson - 2007-Present, CJ Spiller 2010-2014. The Bills have had a great stable of RBs in the last 14 years. Secondly, Bryce didn't get screwed and it's only one fumble for this team but he's known for it. To the tune of twice as often (carries per fumble) as Fred through the course or their careers, but you sure love to troll about Fred don't ya? Does Bryce bring the leadership Fred brings? NO. Does he bring any at all. Probably not. Does he pass block as good as Fred? NO. Fred is considered one of the best. As far as what Faulk thinks, most around here, I bet, don't give a flying f@#k what he thinks, he's one of the worst analyst on TV. Once you get past 6-8 teams he don't know a jack about the rest of the league. He's horrible. Imo http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/stats/_/id/2606/travis-henry http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/stats/_/id/4481/willis-mcgahee http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/stats/_/id/10456/marshawn-lynch http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/stats/_/id/10195/fred-jackson http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/stats/_/id/13203/cj-spiller Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanInUticaTampa Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 (edited) At my bills bar in the Tampa area, there is this older bills fan that shows up named Bob. He spends the entire first half screaming whenever he sees any player with long hair on tv for someone to "rip it off!" because he "looks like a moron with hair that long!" Then at halftime, he leaves I have nothing to contribute to the thread, but after seeing his user name and reading his post it was all I could think of Edited June 8, 2015 by DanInUticaTampa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaska Darin Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 I agree, but to clarify with the quoted post you used, I was referring to determining coaching / team greatness not individualized play. Clearly there's plenty of undeniably great players in the history of football who don't have rings. The list is far shorter in the NBA. To be considered a great team, or coach, you need rings (at least in an objective sense). To be considered a great player without rings is certainly possible in the NBA, but it's really rare because of how much impact one player can have. Football, baseball, and the larger team sports its a much more common occurrence. So if players don't win championships they can be great but a coach who doesn't win (but doesn't actually play or have any real control over the final outcome) can't? What if a coach draws up the perfect play in a Championship situation and the players blow the play by falling down before they score or miss the gimme dunk? In Greggy's world that means that coach isn't great. Yet my calling Bird a great NBA coach is "subjective?" You're so full of ****. Bird took a team with at best slightly above average talent and elevated them to heights they'd never gotten to in a very short time period.. I don't give a crap if your daddy says greatness is only measured by rings. It just means he's full of **** too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkAF43 Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 Fred was on the nfl network a couple weeks ago ,saying he has at least 3 good yrs left. Should have seen Faulks face. Playing until he`s 37 or 38. Yeah O.K. fred. I actually don't have a problem with him saying that. I would rather hear a guy say that rather than this might be my last year or next year. It's the same mindset to me as someone saying I'm the best. Fine, you're the best, go prove it. You think you can play 3 good years left? Prove it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillnutinHouston Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 As far as Fred, I'm a big fan of him, and hope he sunsets this year while still in top form. I believe I recall Fred saying a few months ago that he wanted to play another few years, or until Bills management throws him out of the facility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocky Landing Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 (edited) Other than run with a football, I seriously doubt you have any idea what a running back does. (damn.. there I go... I went for the bait...) Edited June 8, 2015 by Beerball Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heitz Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 Fred Jackson knew that when he drafted CJ Spiller he would need to coach him up! He didn't, epic fail on Freddy's part - totally asleep at the wheel! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkAF43 Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 Your trolling is quite pathetic and weak. It's sad to watch you stumble through an argument about FJ with no supporting facts or proof to back up your ridiculously weak claims and attempts to bad mouth him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deranged Rhino Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 So if players don't win championships they can be great but a coach who doesn't win (but doesn't actually play or have any real control over the final outcome) can't? What if a coach draws up the perfect play in a Championship situation and the players blow the play by falling down before they score or miss the gimme dunk? In Greggy's world that means that coach isn't great. Yet my calling Bird a great NBA coach is "subjective?" You're so full of ****. Bird took a team with at best slightly above average talent and elevated them to heights they'd never gotten to in a very short time period.. I don't give a crap if your daddy says greatness is only measured by rings. It just means he's full of **** too. In my world, and reality, any professional coach without a ring cannot be classified as great unless you're a fan of that team and arguing irrationally and emotionally (as you are). Coaches are responsible for managing and running the team. A team's ultimate goal, in any sport, is to win a title. The ONLY objective way to judge a coach or team's greatness is with ring counts. Players are graded differently, in different sports. Fans of the Pacers can (and do) argue Bird is great all the time, will he be in the NBA hall of fame as a coach? !@#$ no. No one with only three years, no titles (in a strike weakened, post Jordan NBA) does not make a great coach. So yes, calling Bird a "great" coach is subjective. Saying he is makes you sound stupid. And you're not stupid. The NFL and NBA are two very different sports. It's harder to be great as a player and not win a ring in the NBA than it is to be a great player in the NFL and not win a ring. Comparing the two is a waste of time. Like your anger in this thread. It's okay if you don't agree with how professional athletes approach their trade, but it's a really silly argument you're making. Not even Bird would agree with you, by the way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
COBillsBacker Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 (edited) I look at greatness differently than the rest of the mouth breathers. If Larry Bird had been coaching the teams his teams had lost to in the playoffs, he would have rings. Would Phil Jackson have beaten Larry Bird if the two switched places? No !@#$ing way and the results are likely more skewed toward the more talented team. Shaq and Kobe in their primes against aging Mark Jackson, Reggie Miller, and Rick Smits? Please. I don't consider Marv Levy a great coach because I believe Joe Gibbs, Jimmie Johnson, and Bill Parcells all win Super Bowls with the BILLS against their respective teams with Levy at the helm. Donnie Walsh, who has forgotten more about basketball than all but a handful of people on this planet know, said Bird was the best manager of a team that he's ever seen. That holds more weight than you trying to displace shoving your leg down your gullet. I'm still waiting for your suggested metric for measuring greatness in team sports... or is this it? You go off feel and your gut when determining this? That seems rather subjective, arbitrary and unhelpful in terms of discussion purposes. You sure you don't want to rethink the way you classify things? I've been around professional athletes my entire life, was raised by one, and to a man each one will tell you that all that matters is winning rings. Bird would agree. As for the "That holds more than you trying to displace shoving your leg down your gullet," that's not true. I fully admit that middling was the wrong adjective to assign Bird's coaching tenure. But calling him a great coach is just as inaccurate. You cannot be considered "great" with zero rings in professional sports or coaching. Sorry. That's just how the world works. So... What if said coach makes it to the HOF? I agree with Greggy that championships matter, and that's how most people gauge greatness. I would say Marv was a great coach. He may not have won any rings, but getting to the SB the way he did makes him great IMO (sure there's some bias)? I would say with the way Andy Reid has performed as a coach (especially with the Eagles) will get him into the HOF one day. EDIT: Bud Grant is another HOF coach that never won a championship Edited June 8, 2015 by COBillsBacker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob's House Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 Fred was on the nfl network a couple weeks ago ,saying he has at least 3 good yrs left. Should have seen Faulks face. Playing until he`s 37 or 38. Yeah O.K. fred. Bernard Hopkins has something you can put in your mouth and smoke on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deranged Rhino Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 (edited) So... What if said coach makes it to the HOF? I agree with Greggy that championships matter, and that's how most people gauge greatness. I would say Marv was a great coach. He may not have won any rings, but getting to the SB the way he did makes him great IMO (sure there's some bias)? I would say with the way Andy Reid has performed as a coach (especially with the Eagles) will get him into the HOF one day. EDIT: Bud Grant is another HOF coach that never won a championship In my mind when there aren't any rings to go on, the only way a coach makes it to the hall is either with longevity (which normally amounts to a winning career record) or a few solid title runs that come up short. Clearly Marv and Reid fall into those exceptions, but the debate about both coach's "greatness" will continue to be ongoing due to their lack of rings. That's the nature of the beast. Bird only had three years, one of those was a strike shortened year. He doesn't have enough on his coaching resume to get over that hurdle and become "great" in NBA coaching circles. Could he have gotten there? Probably, I wouldn't bet against Bird. But he didn't so... Edited June 8, 2015 by GreggyT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocky Landing Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 Ahhh, Monday. Everyone's back at work posting on fan sites... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ALF Posted June 9, 2015 Share Posted June 9, 2015 Fred could get a intern job like Andre Reed when he retires. http://www.scout.com/nfl/bills/story/1547678-andre-reed-to-intern-with-the-buffalo-bills Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkAF43 Posted June 9, 2015 Share Posted June 9, 2015 so all the comments from Tampa Bob are showing blank to me (even one I quoted from him), does that mean he blocked me, or is he suspended again? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jauronimo Posted June 9, 2015 Share Posted June 9, 2015 so all the comments from Tampa Bob are showing blank to me (even one I quoted from him), does that mean he blocked me, or is he suspended again? In project TBD there are no names but in banishment, his name was Tampa Robert. Witness him!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Best Player Available Posted June 9, 2015 Share Posted June 9, 2015 so all the comments from Tampa Bob are showing blank to me (even one I quoted from him), does that mean he blocked me, or is he suspended again? IIRC he typically starts the fire, then hides under the bridge...........Who can blame him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkyMannn Posted June 9, 2015 Share Posted June 9, 2015 According to several sites, Fred has a net worth of $6m+. Why would he want to do the grind of coaching? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jauronimo Posted June 9, 2015 Share Posted June 9, 2015 According to several sites, Fred has a net worth of $6m+. Why would he want to do the grind of coaching? Probably because he has 30+ more years of career time, 50+ years of potential lifespan, and 3 or 4 kids to consider. I don't you go full retirement mode based on $6 million with those considerations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnwalter Posted June 9, 2015 Share Posted June 9, 2015 According to several sites, Fred has a net worth of $6m+. Why would he want to do the grind of coaching? Probably because he has 30+ more years of career time, 50+ years of potential lifespan, and 3 or 4 kids to consider. I don't you go full retirement mode based on $6 million with those considerations. Fred Jackson does not strike me as someone who makes career choices solely because of money. I think if he comes back to coach, it's because he loves football, he loves Buffalo, and he loves this team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdand12 Posted June 9, 2015 Share Posted June 9, 2015 I actually don't have a problem with him saying that. I would rather hear a guy say that rather than this might be my last year or next year. It's the same mindset to me as someone saying I'm the best. Fine, you're the best, go prove it. You think you can play 3 good years left? Prove it. exactly. I believe I recall Fred saying a few months ago that he wanted to play another few years, or until Bills management throws him out of the facility. same thing with K Williams Fred Jackson does not strike me as someone who makes career choices solely because of money. I think if he comes back to coach, it's because he loves football, he loves Buffalo, and he loves this team. TY i think that is really the point isn't it ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffaloed in Pa Posted June 9, 2015 Share Posted June 9, 2015 Bernard Hopkins has something you can put in your mouth and smoke on. Hey buddy if your ever in my neck of the woods,stop by. We can have a nice talk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jauronimo Posted June 9, 2015 Share Posted June 9, 2015 Hey buddy if your ever in my neck of the woods,stop by. We can have a nice talk. Get 'em, Seabass! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffaloed in Pa Posted June 9, 2015 Share Posted June 9, 2015 Get 'em, Seabass! Internet tough boys.Funny stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Riverside Posted June 9, 2015 Share Posted June 9, 2015 Hey buddy if your ever in my neck of the woods,stop by. We can have a nice talk. What is your neck of the woods....under some bridge? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob's House Posted June 9, 2015 Share Posted June 9, 2015 Hey buddy if your ever in my neck of the woods,stop by. We can have a nice talk. I doubt I'd enjoy the conversation. Internet tough boys.Funny stuff. This strikes me as ironic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jauronimo Posted June 9, 2015 Share Posted June 9, 2015 I doubt I'd enjoy the conversation. Especially not if Hopkins is there too. How will he carry a conversation with his mouth full? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob's House Posted June 9, 2015 Share Posted June 9, 2015 Especially not if Hopkins is there too. How will he carry a conversation with his mouth full? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Malooga Posted June 9, 2015 Share Posted June 9, 2015 You don't win a ring in the NBA without an elite player. The Pacers didn't have one. The fact that he got them as far as he did every year without a single player averaging even 20 points is a testimonial to his coaching ability. He had three years on his resume because that's what he signed up for. He told everyone he'd coach 3 seasons and that's what he did. He took a team that hadn't done anything since their ABA days and took them to the brink of their first NBA title with teams that clearly weren't at the top of the heap talent wise. You can use the championship thing to say he isn't great (which seems astoundingly stupid coming from a BILLS fan) but saying he was "middling at best" is !@#$ing retarded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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