Deflate-gate investigation complete

[Kirby Jackson]

The best part about this is that the Patriots are under siege and their legacy is tarnished (even if it is just a little). They are totally on the defensive and I am really enjoying watching them squirm.

stiff fine, and some draft pick seem like a "gimme" here. how high the pick, what brady gets, if gostkowski gets anything and if it extends into coach/GM getting punishment are the real questions. as i mentioned in another thread - payton got hit with "we think he knew, but if he didnt he should have" and so did the saints GM. also hargrove was suspended for "knowing about the program and not admitting it, not participation in the program" (which i think is way overstepping, but its something they did).

I think that Brady gets 2-8 games. If I had to guess I would say 4 games (and it may be cut in half at appeal). Gostkowski probably gets no punishment. A 2nd round pick is forfeited. Belicheck gets something as well. It may just be a fine but he has to fall on the sword for "lack of institutional control." He is actually the person that I feel a little sorry for here. I don't think that Belicheck had anything to do with this.

[plenzmd1]

I think Belichick and the Pats should not get fined or sanctioned. Think it should be Brady and Brady alone. The reason I think that is the Wells report says they had no knowledge, and if we are to believe the Wells report on other points we must also belive it on this point.

 

BTW, couple of other points I wanted to make

 

1) I have been listening to EEI quite a bit last couple of days...the vast majority of the hosts belive Brady is "guilty", and I think they are are quite reasonable. Several have questions about sections of the report, but overall believe Tommy boy did this.

 

2) Maybe I missed it, but did the NFL relay to Walt Anderson there was concern about the balls ? If so, seems strange to me , when he did not know where the balls were , that he just did not have them re measured when they were found.

 

3) if this truly was a sting, is that not what they would have done and not let illegal balls in the game? I mean, had they remeasured, they have the Patriots nailed and they play with legal balls. Imagine what the outcry would be like if the Pats took a 21 point lead with the bad balls, then the Colts rally in the 2nd half but come up just short. NFL is so lucky that did happen.

Edited May 8, 2015 by plenzmd1

[webtoe]

The best part about this is that the Patriots are under siege and their legacy is tarnished (even if it is just a little). They are totally on the defensive and I am really enjoying watching them squirm.

I think that Brady gets 2-8 games. If I had to guess I would say 4 games (and it may be cut in half at appeal). Gostkowski probably gets no punishment. A 2nd round pick is forfeited. Belicheck gets something as well. It may just be a fine but he has to fall on the sword for "lack of institutional control." He is actually the person that I feel a little sorry for here. I don't think that Belicheck had anything to do with this.

 

I don't agree. Belicheck created the win at all costs environment with SpyGate, and all the other little rule bending he does. Also, he may not have had a direct hand in the deflating, but I'm sure he did not mind the results when it came to the reduction in fumbles.

[BuffaloHokie13]

2) Maybe I missed it, but did the NFL relay to Walt Anderson there was concern about the balls ? If so, seems strange to me , when he did not know where the balls were , that he just did not have them re measured when they were found.

Yeah, that's the most confusing thing, and should reflect poorly on the NFL. Either they didn't inform the Official like they said, or their official is easily lost in the moment and really dropped the ball.

[Kirby Jackson]

 

I don't agree. Belicheck created the win at all costs environment with SpyGate, and all the other little rule bending he does. Also, he may not have had a direct hand in the deflating, but I'm sure he did not mind the results when it came to the reduction in fumbles.

I'm not saying that he minded. I am saying that he did not know that they were underinflating the footballs. He certainly doesn't mind playing on the edge. In this particular situation though there really isn't any evidence linking him to it. He probably will still be punished for the same reason that Sean Payton was.

I think Belichick and the Pats should not get fined or sanctioned. Think it should be Brady and Brady alone. The reason I think that is the Wells report says they had no knowledge, and if we are to believe the Wells report on other points we must also belive it on this point.

 

BTW, couple of other points I wanted to make

 

1) I have been listening to EEI quite a bit last couple of days...the vast majority of the hosts belive Brady is "guilty", and I think they are are quite reasonable. Several have questions about sections of the report, but overall believe Tommy boy did this.

 

2) Maybe I missed it, but did the NFL relay to Walt Anderson there was concern about the balls ? If so, seems strange to me , when he did not know where the balls were , that he just did not have them re measured when they were found.

 

3) if this truly was a sting, is that not what they would have done and not let illegal balls in the game? I mean, had they remeasured, they have the Patriots nailed and they play with legal balls. Imagine what the outcry would be like if the Pats took a 21 point lead with the bad balls, then the Colts rally in the 2nd half but come up just short. NFL is so lucky that did happen.

That is a really interesting take that I had not thought of. Think about any game where this did happen (Leodis fumble game) and if it made a difference? How long has this gone on for is one of the underrated aspects of this.

[Go Kiko go]

 

The flaws are seemingly many but the (fatal) flaw is we have no clear evidence of the starting PSI points of the footballs. All we have is the recollection of a ref who, as I have pointed out, functioned with highly questionable competency in this matter.

 

Since we have no clear evidence of the starting PSI's the final PSI's matter little without an established comparable reference.

 

I would also be interested in knowing if proper measurement testing protocol was followed by the refs in question. In particular, if they performed a R&R and employed a capable measurement system that ensured the tolerance isn't consumed by the variability of the measurement itself. This information doesn't appear in the Well's report that I can see.

 

We don't need clear evidence of the starting PSI. The report assumed (as Anderson recalled) that the starting PSI was 12.5--the lowest level permissible under the rules. The starting PSI couldn't have been lower, otherwise the referees would have added pressure to the balls to bring them up to the minimum (and indeed, two of the footballs were below the minimum 12.5 PSI, and the referees inflated those two footballs up to the minimum--see page 52). It's possible that that the starting PSI could have been higher, but that would have been more unfavorable to the Patriots, because a higher starting PSI would have indicated an even greater drop in pressure. In other words, the Wells report's calculations were based on the best possible scenario for the Patriots and still concluded that the pressure drop couldn't be explained by atmospheric conditions.

Edited May 8, 2015 by Go Kiko go

[Kelly the Dog]

I think Belichick and the Pats should not get fined or sanctioned. Think it should be Brady and Brady alone. The reason I think that is the Wells report says they had no knowledge, and if we are to believe the Wells report on other points we must also belive it on this point.

 

3) if this truly was a sting, is that not what they would have done and not let illegal balls in the game? I mean, had they remeasured, they have the Patriots nailed and they play with legal balls. Imagine what the outcry would be like if the Pats took a 21 point lead with the bad balls, then the Colts rally in the 2nd half but come up just short. NFL is so lucky that did happen.

On these two points, 1) I don't believe at all that the Pats or Belichick knew. And my first reaction was just what you said. But now I believe that Belichick created the culture of bending and seriously breaking the rules. And Brady as his star player probably just thought this kind of thing is business as usual and it's The Patriot Way, so maybe they should be held responsible.

 

2) your point would seem to make the case for it wasn't a sting. They would be allowing the Pats to play in a Championship Game with the illegal balls and then saying "Aha! We caught you!" The NFL is dumb but I doubt that dumb. Furthermore, I don't think there is much if any chance that if it was a sting, the NFL would have let Wells do what he did after how thorough the Incognito report was. No way they knew about the balls, conducted a sting, and then gave total leeway to that level of investigator to dig into what happened.

[webtoe]

The NFL incompetence was really an opening that Brady and the Pats could have taken advantage of. If in that first press conference Brady, instead of saying he doesn't worry about the balls, said that he asks his equipment guys to get the balls at as low a psi as possible, then it is on the officials to catch it. Then, while a violation, that would have been seen by most as just gamesmanship.

 

His straight denial, accompanied by McNally bringing the balls into the bathroom, exposes the truth to what happened, especially when accompanied by the texts.

[plenzmd1]

We don't need clear evidence of the starting PSI. The report assumed (as Anderson recalled) that the starting PSI was 12.5--the lowest level permissible under the rules. The starting PSI couldn't have been lower, otherwise the referees would have added pressure to the balls to bring them up to the minimum (and indeed, two of the footballs were below the minimum 12.5 PSI, and the referees inflated those two footballs up to the minimum--see page 52). It's possible that that the starting PSI could have been higher, but that would have been more unfavorable to the Patriots, because a higher starting PSI would have indicated an even greater drop in pressure. In other words, the Wells report's calculations were based on the best possible scenario for the Patriots and still concluded that the pressure drop couldn't be explained by atmospheric conditions.

That's a great, great point!

On these two points, 1) I don't believe at all that the Pats or Belichick knew. And my first reaction was just what you said. But now I believe that Belichick created the culture of bending and seriously breaking the rules. And Brady as his star player probably just thought this kind of thing is business as usual and it's The Patriot Way, so maybe they should be held responsible.

2) your point would seem to make the case for it wasn't a sting. They would be allowing the Pats to play in a Championship Game with the illegal balls and then saying "Aha! We caught you!" The NFL is dumb but I doubt that dumb. Furthermore, I don't think there is much if any chance that if it was a sting, the NFL would have let Wells do what he did after how thorough the Incognito report was. No way they knew about the balls, conducted a sting, and then gave total leeway to that level of investigator to dig into what happened.

To point one , I find that a hard argument to make, but as many people have mentioned, Payton was nailed for same thing.

 

To point two, that is exactly the point I was trying to make ...I ain't buying this was a sting.

[NoSaint]

That's a great, great point!

 

the flip side to the point is that if the measurements arent very reliable, its possible some read 12.5 but could have a true number lower, just as easily as higher. i dont knwo much about the testing equipment/procedures though and what the unreliable nature weve seen mentioned a few times entails.

[MattM]

the flip side to the point is that if the measurements arent very reliable, its possible some read 12.5 but could have a true number lower, just as easily as higher. i dont knwo much about the testing equipment/procedures though and what the unreliable nature weve seen mentioned a few times entails.

I believe the report pretty clearly states that the gauges used here were found to have worked just fine.

[BillsFan-4-Ever]

sorry if already posted

 

Report Brady facing up to 1 year suspension

[BuffaloHokie13]

I believe the report pretty clearly states that the gauges used here were found to have worked just fine.

Yep.

In addition, Exponent found that the gauges used on the day of the AFC Championship Game appear to have worked reliably and consistently. Exponent further concluded that the difference in the pressure drops between the teams was not caused by a malfunction of either gauge or by “human factors” (i.e., variability caused by the particular individual who used the gauge). Based on extensive testing, Exponent determined that the gauges would have read consistently and with good repeatability when used in the range of temperatures to which they were exposed in the Officials Locker Room and when used to measure a range of pressures that includes those measured on game day.

[Pneumonic]

 

We don't need clear evidence of the starting PSI. The report assumed (as Anderson recalled) that the starting PSI was 12.5--the lowest level permissible under the rules. The starting PSI couldn't have been lower, otherwise the referees would have added pressure to the balls to bring them up to the minimum (and indeed, two of the footballs were below the minimum 12.5 PSI, and the referees inflated those two footballs up to the minimum--see page 52). It's possible that that the starting PSI could have been higher, but that would have been more unfavorable to the Patriots, because a higher starting PSI would have indicated an even greater drop in pressure. In other words, the Wells report's calculations were based on the best possible scenario for the Patriots and still concluded that the pressure drop couldn't be explained by atmospheric conditions.

 

You are entitled to your opinion on whether clear evidence is required or not. I happen to think it is vitally important to have an established reference documented and not some presumption based on the recollection of an official who couldn't even recall whether he signed the kicking balls or even what gauge was used for crying out loud.

 

The entire premise of the report is based on pre-game ball pressure totals that have no proof of being accurate. It's a sham.

I believe the report pretty clearly states that the gauges used here were found to have worked just fine.

 

Did the report mention if a R&R study was done on the gauges? If not there is no guarantee of them working fine.

[dave mcbride]

On these two points, 1) I don't believe at all that the Pats or Belichick knew. And my first reaction was just what you said. But now I believe that Belichick created the culture of bending and seriously breaking the rules. And Brady as his star player probably just thought this kind of thing is business as usual and it's The Patriot Way, so maybe they should be held responsible.

 

2) your point would seem to make the case for it wasn't a sting. They would be allowing the Pats to play in a Championship Game with the illegal balls and then saying "Aha! We caught you!" The NFL is dumb but I doubt that dumb. Furthermore, I don't think there is much if any chance that if it was a sting, the NFL would have let Wells do what he did after how thorough the Incognito report was. No way they knew about the balls, conducted a sting, and then gave total leeway to that level of investigator to dig into what happened.

Dog: Re point #1: http://mmqb.si.com/2015/05/07/wells-report-deflategate-patriots-andrew-brandt/

[Pneumonic]

Brady's agent speaks some on the matter.

 

http://nesn.com/2015/05/agent-don-yee-malice-intended-toward-tom-brady-in-wells-report/

"YEE: I don’t accept that. I don’t even accept that because it’s very clear, the report actually lays out the absence of any league protocols on how to handle footballs. There are no protocols. For example, every referee can buy any gauge to use in measuring the footballs. Number two — no measurements are even written down or recorded. In fact, the Wells investigators simply had to rely on referee Walt Anderson’s memory."

"YEE: I do think there was some malice intended toward Tom and the organization. I don’t know if the malice was intentional. They’ve been winning for a long time, as we know, and I’ve always told my friends who’ve inquired about the NFL — I tell them, there is no jealousy or envy like NFL jealousy or envy."

[plenzmd1]

 

Brady's agent speaks some on the matter.

 

http://nesn.com/2015/05/agent-don-yee-malice-intended-toward-tom-brady-in-wells-report/

 

"YEE: I dont accept that. I dont even accept that because its very clear, the report actually lays out the absence of any league protocols on how to handle footballs. There are no protocols. For example, every referee can buy any gauge to use in measuring the footballs. Number two no measurements are even written down or recorded. In fact, the Wells investigators simply had to rely on referee Walt Andersons memory."

 

"YEE: I do think there was some malice intended toward Tom and the organization. I dont know if the malice was intentional. Theyve been winning for a long time, as we know, and Ive always told my friends whove inquired about the NFL I tell them, there is no jealousy or envy like NFL jealousy or envy."

I guess I am dumb, cause I see no point here. It does strike me as odd that Yee keeps pointing to an NFL vendetta vs his clients innocence ...maybe I missed it but I have not seen him say unequivocally Brady had zero knowledge of balls being deflated.

 

Is it really the contention of all the "vendetta" people think the NFL really wants Brady to be caught cheating. Give me one, and I do mean just one, where him getting caught cheating is good for the NFL? As soon as I hear that , maybe I can start to look at things different.

 

And let's not forget , Kraft is one of three owners who decides Rogers pay.

[eball]

I guess I am dumb, cause I see no point here. It does strike me as odd that Yee keeps pointing to an NFL vendetta vs his clients innocence ...maybe I missed it but I have not seen him say unequivocally Brady had zero knowledge of balls being deflated.

 

Is it really the contention of all the "vendetta" people think the NFL really wants Brady to be caught cheating. Give me one, and I do mean just one, where him getting caught cheating is good for the NFL? As soon as I hear that , maybe I can start to look at things different.

 

And let's not forget , Kraft is one of three owners who decides Rogers pay.

 

It's simple in my mind...Yee is going to be 100% pro-Brady because that's what he's paid to be. Unfortunately (for Brady) he's just making it worse.

[YoloinOhio]

Damien Woody is going OFF on pats, pats fans, etc on cowherd. Great stuff!!

[Numark3]

On the invasion of privacy stuff, it was very narrow discovery. If there was nothing to hide, I question the lawyers advice to not turn it over. Knowing this was going to be a court of public opinion, his clients celebrity status, and the NFL's low levels of standards to punish.

 

If the lawyer weighed all that and put "not setting a precedent for other players" or "making a moral stand" then that's very suspect advice. Brady is his client, not other players. That's why I can't believe that advice was given.

 

The request is very narrow, it's not court enforced, and would produce a small amount of documents. They could have tailored what they gave. To not give anything is bad advice, as we see now.