Deflate-gate investigation complete

[Kelly the Dog]

I'm not sure how much of a conspiracy it is.

 

It's well known that Kraft and Goodell are very close.

 

I don't think Goodell likes Belichick though, and after this I bet he really doesn't like Brady.

[NoSaint]

He's been with the team 24 years or something. The last 2-3 he's only worked home games.

Gotcha- I haven't read his bio, so your post was the first I thought about the guys timeline vs the fumble stats that many point out.

 

Are there other guys involved? Discrepancies home vs away? All that good stuff. I've been very curious the quantifiable effected all

[Kelly the Dog]

Gotcha- I haven't read his bio, so your post was the first I thought about the guys timeline vs the fumble stats that many point out.

Are there other guys involved? Discrepancies home vs away? All that good stuff. I've been very curious the quantifiable effected all

It appears that the officials usually take the balls to the field. In this championship game, McNally took both the Pats balls and the Colts balls to the bathroom first and then to the field.

 

I imagine if anyone other than Officials takes the balls from the Officials Locker Room to the field it would be the home team's guy, like McNally at Gillette.

[NoSaint]

It appears that the officials usually take the balls to the field. In this championship game, McNally took both the Pats balls and the Colts balls to the bathroom first and then to the field.

 

I imagine if anyone other than Officials takes the balls from the Officials Locker Room to the field it would be the home team's guy, like McNally at Gillette.

Sounds reasonable. Really, like I was saying in the last post, I know a lot of people point at the fumble study but without context it's hard to grasp true effect. It still seems crazy to me that some think 100% of the lower rate is this, but I'm not basing that off anything beyond my gut. Id love to have some sort of baseline to compare to but can't imagine it possible to truly find.

 

Edit: just poking through their stats it seems they do fumble more at home the last few years (or flat across the two) just looking at fumbles/game

Edited May 10, 2015 by NoSaint

[Kelly the Dog]

Sounds reasonable. Really, like I was saying in the last post, I know a lot of people point at the fumble study but without context it's hard to grasp true effect. It still seems crazy to me that some think 100% of the lower rate is this, but I'm not basing that off anything beyond my gut. Id love to have some sort of baseline to compare to but can't imagine it possible to truly find.

Right. I'm not a big believer in the deflation being the main cause of the fumble issue although it likely has an affect.

 

McNally's job is to prepare the Officials Locker Room and supply it with stuff they need. It appears most stadiums the officials bring the ball bags full of balls, the bags provided by each team, from the Officials Locker Room to the field after they have been measured. At Gillette, McNally takes them to the field, but the Officials said he does not do that without their permission or accompanied by an official. This game was different. In fact, Anderson looked for and couldn't find them. The first time in 19 years he said that has happened.

[Fan in San Diego]

The Patriots have shown a long history of pushing the limits of the rules, bending them or breaking them. If I was Rodger I would drop the hammer on the Patriots to send a clear message to the whole organization to stop trying to be cute. Do anything again it again and it will be twice as bad.

[DC Tom]

The Patriots have shown a long history of pushing the limits of the rules, bending them or breaking them. If I was Rodger I would drop the hammer on the Patriots to send a clear message to the whole organization to stop trying to be cute. Do anything again it again and it will be twice as bad.

 

If you were commissioner you'd do that.

 

If you were Roger, you'd suspend the Colts GM for bringing this issue public.

[NoSaint]

I'll post here too-- not sure which is best

 

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/05/10/wells-report-disregards-andersons-best-recollection-on-a-key-piece-of-evidence/

 

 

PFT hits the wells report pretty hard here on Anderson and the pressure gauge issue. If accurate, sounds like the pats could have reason to be upset..... Or florio confused himself. I skimmed on my phone but know we have some experts here

[Kelly the Dog]

I'll post here too-- not sure which is best

 

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/05/10/wells-report-disregards-andersons-best-recollection-on-a-key-piece-of-evidence/

 

 

PFT hits the wells report pretty hard here on Anderson and the pressure gauge issue. If accurate, sounds like the pats could have reason to be upset..... Or florio confused himself. I skimmed on my phone but know we have some experts here

The report from the independent science lab that Wells hired said in it that the chances of this occurring naturally, according to the Ideal gas law that Florio is quoting was .04% Less than half of one percent. Not to mention that it totally disregards that the Colts balls on average would have lost one third of what the Pats balls lost, which is, of course, impossible.

[Prickly Pete]

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/05/10/is-football-inflation-a-big-deal-its-too-late-for-the-nfl-to-say-it-isnt/

[Matt in KC]

[thebandit27]

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/05/10/is-football-inflation-a-big-deal-its-too-late-for-the-nfl-to-say-it-isnt/

 

I don't normally post the same thing in multiple threads, but just for you:

 

Florio is pandering, and it's sad.

 

Sometimes he comes off like a logical person, and then it almost seems like--just for fun--he does a total 180 so that he can be right either way.

 

As soon as someone explains the following, I'll re-think my position:

 

A guy that calls himself "The Deflator" takes footballs that he's not supposed to have, to a place they aren't supposed to go, where cameras cannot see him, for a long-enough period of time to tamper with each of them, and claims he did so because he had to use a bathroom stall/urinal that doesn't exist.

 

Then, when tested at halftime, those same footballs show a drop in pressure from the mandated pre-game limits that exceeds the drop in pressure of the Colts' footballs by a statistically significant margin, regardless of which pressure readings are used.

 

Next, we're privy to a series of messages from the team's ball handlers that very clearly show that they're acting upon instructions from the team's QB, who subsequently refused to provide correspondence relating to the investigation, despite being given the opportunity for he and his lawyers to pick through the correspondence on his phone before submitting.

 

The above, when considered within the context of the entire series of events, makes it "more probable than not" that (a) they tampered with the ball, and (b) Brady knew about it.

 

If we're treating this like law, then that's my closing argument. I welcome anyone that disagrees to make theirs.

[Doc]

Well said.

[Dorkington]

Bravo, Bandit.

[NoSaint]

 

I don't normally post the same thing in multiple threads, but just for you:

 

Florio is pandering, and it's sad.

 

Sometimes he comes off like a logical person, and then it almost seems like--just for fun--he does a total 180 so that he can be right either way.

 

As soon as someone explains the following, I'll re-think my position:

 

A guy that calls himself "The Deflator" takes footballs that he's not supposed to have, to a place they aren't supposed to go, where cameras cannot see him, for a long-enough period of time to tamper with each of them, and claims he did so because he had to use a bathroom stall/urinal that doesn't exist.

 

Then, when tested at halftime, those same footballs show a drop in pressure from the mandated pre-game limits that exceeds the drop in pressure of the Colts' footballs by a statistically significant margin, regardless of which pressure readings are used.

 

Next, we're privy to a series of messages from the team's ball handlers that very clearly show that they're acting upon instructions from the team's QB, who subsequently refused to provide correspondence relating to the investigation, despite being given the opportunity for he and his lawyers to pick through the correspondence on his phone before submitting.

 

The above, when considered within the context of the entire series of events, makes it "more probable than not" that (a) they tampered with the ball, and (b) Brady knew about it.

 

If we're treating this like law, then that's my closing argument. I welcome anyone that disagrees to make theirs.

it may be lost in the volume of posts that florio has made, but ive seen him say a few times that despite the process being sloppy and inconsistent that the league very much can look at the greater context of the text messages, etc.... and couple it with the non-cooperation for a large punishment.

 

i havent hit every article his wrtten on the topic the last week or so, but i think "the process was terribly flawed, but something is still probably up" is a pretty good take.

[thebandit27]

it may be lost in the volume of posts that florio has made, but ive seen him say a few times that despite the process being sloppy and inconsistent that the league very much can look at the greater context of the text messages, etc.... and couple it with the non-cooperation for a large punishment.

 

i havent hit every article his wrtten on the topic the last week or so, but i think "the process was terribly flawed, but something is still probably up" is a pretty good take.

 

Actually, if that were the over-arching message he were trying to send, then I'd take no issue whatsoever.

 

My problem is that he seems to be trying to bury that message in his diatribes.

[Gugny]

We'll see what that ball boy has to say when Vincenzo Pentangeli shows up.

[NoSaint]

 

Actually, if that were the over-arching message he were trying to send, then I'd take no issue whatsoever.

 

My problem is that he seems to be trying to bury that message in his diatribes.

i might have gotten that point by coincidence in some of the ones ive read most recently. i know his site is great for pumping out a lot of content across the league, but in a week like this pumping out a ton on an unchanging topic its easy for the two of us to skim a few days and take away different reads based on which of the 2 dozen articles on the same topic we read. Edited May 11, 2015 by NoSaint

[Fan in Chicago]

The report from the independent science lab that Wells hired said in it that the chances of this occurring naturally, according to the Ideal gas law that Florio is quoting was .04% Less than half of one percent. Not to mention that it totally disregards that the Colts balls on average would have lost one third of what the Pats balls lost, which is, of course, impossible.

 

I am now going to talk purely from a engineering standpoint.

- The pressure in a ball will drop when the temperature drops and unless you are dealing with non-ideal fluids, the change should follow the ideal gas law. Pressure and temperature are directly related i.e. temperature drops, pressure drops. You have to be careful in the units of measure during this conversion. Temperature needs to be converted to Kelvin and pressure in atmospheres etc. Not very important unless someone asks me to convert and double check these calcs

- The crookedness of the needle in the gauge is mentioned several times in this article as if that by itself is a significant variable. Note that we are measuring pressure and not flow rate. If you are measuring flow rate, all other things being equal, the crookedness of a pipe will add pressure drop and lead one to an incorrect measurement. However, we are measuring pressure here and if you allow even a second between needle insertion and taking measurement (allowing for the needle to stabilize and not vibrate), the crookedness should be immaterial

- The quoted potential error between the gauges "measures the air pressure at 0.3 to 0.45 PSI lower" sounds weird to me. For a 12 psi measurement, this is a 2.5 - 3.75% error which is way too large, IMO. If the gauges can be off by this amount, then the entire premise of the investigation is not only ridiculous but points to a far larger problem in the NFL. If this is the case, then the NFL should be taken to task for quality control issues. In fact, I would say this should become a separate investigation by itself

 

Feel free to chime in guys. Florio is either intentionally causing confusion or inadvertently pointing to issues he does not fully understand.

[thebandit27]

 

I am now going to talk purely from a engineering standpoint.

- The pressure in a ball will drop when the temperature drops and unless you are dealing with non-ideal fluids, the change should follow the ideal gas law. Pressure and temperature are directly related i.e. temperature drops, pressure drops. You have to be careful in the units of measure during this conversion. Temperature needs to be converted to Kelvin and pressure in atmospheres etc. Not very important unless someone asks me to convert and double check these calcs

- The crookedness of the needle in the gauge is mentioned several times in this article as if that by itself is a significant variable. Note that we are measuring pressure and not flow rate. If you are measuring flow rate, all other things being equal, the crookedness of a pipe will add pressure drop and lead one to an incorrect measurement. However, we are measuring pressure here and if you allow even a second between needle insertion and taking measurement (allowing for the needle to stabilize and not vibrate), the crookedness should be immaterial

- The quoted potential error between the gauges "measures the air pressure at 0.3 to 0.45 PSI lower" sounds weird to me. For a 12 psi measurement, this is a 2.5 - 3.75% error which is way too large, IMO. If the gauges can be off by this amount, then the entire premise of the investigation is not only ridiculous but points to a far larger problem in the NFL. If this is the case, then the NFL should be taken to task for quality control issues. In fact, I would say this should become a separate investigation by itself

 

Feel free to chime in guys. Florio is either intentionally causing confusion or inadvertently pointing to issues he does not fully understand.

 

Also from an engineering perspective: there's almost no attention paid to the fact that volume is not a constant in the equation. Most of the discussion I've seen wants to assume that it is, but if pressure and temperature vary, then so too does the capacity of the ball.

 

The experiments should include some type of analysis on the control volume to see what the delta-V is in correlation to changes in ambient temperature.