So how would you like having a Ford Field in downtown Buffalo?

[purple haze]

I HATE the idea of a dome stadium. And a new stadium is not necessarily an improvement- the new meadowlands and Yankee stadium suck!

 

New Yankee stadium doesn't have the history or charm of the old place, but I think they did a nice job with it. Except for that part of the bleachers with a blocked view. The rest of it though is nice. And the concourses actually have room to walk. The old stadium was like walking through a house party every time you had to take leak or get drink.

[TheFunPolice]

 

If Kirby says this is the model I could get behind it...

 

My gut reaction is "NO! NO ROOF!"

 

I think I could handle it IF it was retractable. This looks pretty cool, and when the weather is horrible, just close it up.

[8-8 Forever?]

It would be perfect. I love the Ralph, but that's a beautiful looking facility they have there.

and it was relatively inexpensive to build. do not need a fancy stadium... keep the ticket prices affordable.

[ExiledInIllinois]

Can you pull a smaller cruise ship up to Canalside/Outer Harbor?

 

I'd think they'd want to be out before the ice freezes them in. Before Seaway days (expansion), intRAlake vessels would use BFLO to overwinter. I don't think even one does now. It seems companies do not like to risk their vessels nowadays.

 

 

Anyway... This is probably as big as it gets. A vessel will have to be Seawaymax to get in. The Hamburg holds about 400:

 

http://fox6now.com/2014/10/02/400-passenger-cruise-ship-to-dock-in-the-port-of-milwaukee-for-the-first-time-in-seven-years/

 

The thing that always bothers me is Canalside is all for show. Think about how much mud the Little Rock is stuck in... It's never coming out. I am not even sure when the last time BFLO Harbor has been dredged.

 

Not to be a doomsayer... But you'd probably need a small fleet of under Seawaymax vessels.

 

 

[ExiledInIllinois]

 

If Kirby says this is the model I could get behind it...

 

My gut reaction is "NO! NO ROOF!"

 

I think I could handle it IF it was retractable. This looks pretty cool, and when the weather is horrible, just close it up.

 

Yes, it has to be retractable or something similar... It has to be "signature." Pure utilitarian just won't cut it. Yet, it has to have utilitarian qualities.

 

Think outside the box! It is something BFLO has never really done. Remember, BFLO was the first city Henry Ford went to when he wanted build his first factor... Before the BFLO elitists told him to get phucked. "Cars? These new fangled inventions will never take off!" "We are courting the new buggy whip facility!"

 

What I am saying is we need to do something truly creative. Lead, stop following what other's do. Hopefully, Pegula doesn't turn into just another BFLO elitist. Sounds funny to use "elitist" and "BFLO" in the same breath... But they exist.

[xsoldier54]

Forget a domed stadium for Buffalo. Being outdoors at the Ralph is part of the charm of gameday. Yes this latest storm was a terrible thing, but I would remind people that this is the only time since the Bills have been in Buffalo that a game has had to be cancelled because of weather. Having teams come to RWS late in the season used to be a tremendous advantage back when we had a decent team. I for one think the indoor stadiums make the game lose some of it's appeal. Those old NFL games in places like Pittsburgh, Green Bay, Cleveland and even NY were classics. Players had to tough it out and beat the conditions. I enjoyed watching that.

[Boatdrinks]

no kidding...it is the greatest feeling in the world to be bundled all the way up sitting outside at a late season bills game when we are kicking a warm weather team's ASS.

 

That is so overblown it's ridiculous, most of the players on BOTH teams are not from the colder climates anyway.. There is little to no advantage besides just being at home. Obviously not enough share your sentiment as late season games have always been a tough sell for the Bills, even during the SB glory years . Why is this? Could it be due to the fact your team is in one of the wort weather cities in the USA? It's not really a great feeling to freeze your a$$ off outside in December. Factor in that a new stadium needs less seats( more demand) and higher prices, in some cases much higher, and a dome/ roof is a necessity. Well heeled fans ( of which here are enough in the area ) just aren't going to pay for the privilege of being outside in miserable weather. The NFL has changed, and the Bills are going to be catching up to the rest of the league. Like it or not, you just can't justify the cost of a new stadium that will only be used 8- 10 times a year, either. Fans just need to wake up to the reality of today's NFL.

[ExiledInIllinois]

 

 

That is so overblown it's ridiculous, most of the players on BOTH teams are not from the colder climates anyway.. There is little to no advantage besides just being at home. Obviously not enough share your sentiment as late season games have always been a tough sell for the Bills, even during the SB glory years . Why is this? Could it be due to the fact your team is in one of the wort weather cities in the USA? It's not really a great feeling to freeze your a$$ off outside in December. Factor in that a new stadium needs less seats( more demand) and higher prices, in some cases much higher, and a dome/ roof is a necessity. Well heeled fans ( of which here are enough in the area ) just aren't going to pay for the privilege of being outside in miserable weather. The NFL has changed, and the Bills are going to be catching up to the rest of the league. Like it or not, you just can't justify the cost of a new stadium that will only be used 8- 10 times a year, either. Fans just need to wake up to the reality of today's NFL.

 

Yes. But the fans in BFLO are different. We are cooler toters, tailgaters. Many do not like to spend a dime extra... Many can't. This isn't a knock, just a fact of life. How do you resolve this with the "New NFL?" Places like Santa Clara or Chicago?

 

How do you bridge the Green Bay Model w/the New NFL Model and get BFLO into the fold and be productive? How in the hell are you going to get a Buffaloian to drop serious coin when many just don't have. You also have to know your market!

Edited November 26, 2014 by ExiledInIllinois

[Kirby Jackson]

 

 

The business community is sitting with the "regulars" now? Seems to me the business community is what suites/skyboxes are made for. Dome atmospheres are terrible in general. Why does Buffalo need one as opposed to every other teams on the east coast? New England, Cleveland, Pittsburgh, Cincinnati, Jersey, DC, Philly all open air. Green Bay, Chicago are just as cold as B-Lo. Were none of those organizations concerned with business people? There is no need for a dome. None.

 

We should lose the term "dome." The last dome built was probably 20 years ago. We need to think indoor facility. These places are like large versions of an arena.

 

In terms of the seating it has to do with the best inventory in the stadium is not priced as such. The seats 20 rows up at the 50 should be significantly more expensive than the seats in the end zone. It is a whole rescaling that needs to occur. That is the case in those other cities. The people sitting in those seats in Buffalo now are the longest tenured not necessarily the business community. The longest tenured people will still have 1st crack at those in a new stadium but the price may be (probably will be) double what they are paying now. This will force one of two things them to either quit or to move to a location that best serves their budget. This will create new, more expensive inventory. In order to move this inventory the Bills need to broaden their candidate pool. The roof will do that.

 

I've tried to go in greater depth elsewhere but that is the crux of it. This is the exact kind of thing that I used to work on and have a pretty good sense for it. Those other cities that you mentioned have a little better weather and a large enough pool of candidates to not have to worry about what the Bills have to worry about. They already had that audience in play. They didn't need to attract them. In addition, their stadiums are all 15 years old or whatever. If they did it over maybe it would be different?

[Best Player Available]

We should lose the term "dome." The last dome built was probably 20 years ago. We need to think indoor facility. These places are like large versions of an arena.

 

In terms of the seating it has to do with the best inventory in the stadium is not priced as such. The seats 20 rows up at the 50 should be significantly more expensive than the seats in the end zone. It is a whole rescaling that needs to occur. That is the case in those other cities. The people sitting in those seats in Buffalo now are the longest tenured not necessarily the business community. The longest tenured people will still have 1st crack at those in a new stadium but the price may be (probably will be) double what they are paying now. This will force one of two things them to either quit or to move to a location that best serves their budget. This will create new, more expensive inventory. In order to move this inventory the Bills need to broaden their candidate pool. The roof will do that.

 

I've tried to go in greater depth elsewhere but that is the crux of it. This is the exact kind of thing that I used to work on and have a pretty good sense for it. Those other cities that you mentioned have a little better weather and a large enough pool of candidates to not have to worry about what the Bills have to worry about. They already had that audience in play. They didn't need to attract them. In addition, their stadiums are all 15 years old or whatever. If they did it over maybe it would be different?

We should lose the term "dome." The last dome built was probably 20 years ago. We need to think indoor facility. These places are like large versions of an arena.

 

In terms of the seating it has to do with the best inventory in the stadium is not priced as such. The seats 20 rows up at the 50 should be significantly more expensive than the seats in the end zone. It is a whole rescaling that needs to occur. That is the case in those other cities. The people sitting in those seats in Buffalo now are the longest tenured not necessarily the business community. The longest tenured people will still have 1st crack at those in a new stadium but the price may be (probably will be) double what they are paying now. This will force one of two things them to either quit or to move to a location that best serves their budget. This will create new, more expensive inventory. In order to move this inventory the Bills need to broaden their candidate pool. The roof will do that.

 

I've tried to go in greater depth elsewhere but that is the crux of it. This is the exact kind of thing that I used to work on and have a pretty good sense for it. Those other cities that you mentioned have a little better weather and a large enough pool of candidates to not have to worry about what the Bills have to worry about. They already had that audience in play. They didn't need to attract them. In addition, their stadiums are all 15 years old or whatever. If they did it over maybe it would be different?

I believe with a domed stadium or not. seats will be way more than double? WNY still does not have a viable economy to make the investement in a dome or maybe any stadium economically viable for the owner(s). Look at every single "sellout" this season and count the hundreds of empty Club seats everywhere around the stadium. The Miami game, The Pegulas first game (the pats) had hundreds of empty seats in the Kelly club. reason being not a lot of people can pay 200+ ( tiered pricing) for those seats. Plus they do not count against a sellout. I believe in NJ if you want seasons lower bowl between the 20's as a season ticket holder that will set you back $400 per game per seat.

 

I do not see the Buffalo economy supporting that. In Jerrah's palace a standing room OBSTRUCTED view chunk of real estate will set you back around $110. How would people support any of that in Buffalo with a dome? I am pretty sure Pegula at least needs to break even on his sports investments. And they are investments. if not for the narrow concourses I think dropping 300 mil in the Ralph would be the best move. Pegula is going to have to raise ticked prices, that will signal the end of the Pegula honeymoon. sellouts will be tough.

[Boatdrinks]

 

 

Yes. But the fans in BFLO are different. We are cooler toters, tailgaters. Many do not like to spend a dime extra... Many can't. This isn't a knock, just a fact of life. How do you resolve this with the "New NFL?" Places like Santa Clara or Chicago?

 

How do you bridge the Green Bay Model w/the New NFL Model and get BFLO into the fold and be productive? How in the hell are you going to get a Buffaloian to drop serious coin when many just don't have. You also have to know your market!

 

Well, this will never be Silicon valley or Chi- town , and there is no " Green Bay model" . That place is truly one of a kind , and one that will not be permitted anywhere else by NFL bylaws. The resale prices ( stub-hub etc) of Bills home game tickets clearly shows the face value of ticket inventory is far below market rate. And also that there are plenty of folks willing to pay these higher prices , they obviously have the " coin" . What they don't have is first crack at those seats because some season ticket holder has them on lockdown at a low- rent price. So they make a killing to defray their already cheap cost, and the Bills get none of those extra $. So the money is already there, the Bills just need a new stadium to tap into it. Fewer seats to create demand, and higher prices that will usher in a new buyer( or get the previous one to pony up market rate) .Coupled with a climate controlled environment to entice the sizable chunk of the current demographic that stays home because of the crappy weather and police blotter type atmosphere at the current venue , you have the new Bills strategy. It's coming soon. That upscale market exists in Buffalo and the surrounding era the team taps into. The current stadium just doesn't allow the Bills to capture it. There is a difference. The Bills know it, and hats why Pegula said there " will be" a new stadium. Some fans may be priced out, or forced to secondary market to go to a few games a year. Those folks aren't the target market for the new stadium model.

[simpleman]

Google the articles. The tax income from higher than expected turnouts at those events (including Football) is allowing the city to pay off their bonds early. I gave you what you wanted.

 

 

 

 

“In 2004, Arlington voters approved a 30-year, $325 million bond package to help build the $1.15 billion stadium.The bonds are being repaid with a half-cent sales tax, a 2 percent hotel occupancy tax and a 5 percent car rental tax.”Just because you read an old report of a politician trying to appease the voters about the cost of the stadium by saying that tax revenues were “greater than originally projected” after years that events included a non-recurring Sweet 16 booking and a SB does not mean the stadium is an economic engine of growth in Texas. Tourism is actually down in city. The city still has many serious problems like lack of public transit and higher end hotels, travel infrastructure. A couple of early good years of beating tax revenue projections out of 30 years does not make it a boon, anymore than a couple of great early starts the Bills had in a few recent seasons, followed by a number of bad games, did not still end in losing seasons. You need to have consistently good results over the long haul, not just an early start "that beat your previous expectations". Kool-Aide tastes great!

[May Day 10]

I don't think we have the demand or market to close the gap much with the rest of the league with just the magic wand of a new venue.

 

The best we/management can hope for are to keep prices at "common" level, make the onfield product relevant... One or 2 decent seasons, a good home playoff game, maybe a late home game with the Division on the line and there will be a need for a waiting list. Very High box office pricing (variable pricing is a good tool). People will be able to sell off a couple games to make up for their investment if they want. Each year the season ticket prices inch up toward the resale amount... maybe also someday join the AFC North or some division with well traveled CLE, PIT, DET fans... Then people hang on through the bad years because they do not want to join the waiting list where the getting is good.

 

Sabres over the past 10 years is the perfect example of how to manage pricing in this market. Gotta hand it to Quinn/Golisano

[JohnC]

It will be an open stadium. As a businessman, Pegula doesn't see the added benefit of a dome that would offset the cost.

 

There will be no schedule of non Bills events that would pay for the extra 4-500 million(plus interest) over time that the dome would add to the cost.

 

If the stadium is going to be built anywhere near the waterfront it would be foolish to build an open facility. Pegula maynow have a preference for an open stadium but when the studies come out prior to the official committment unanimously or near unanimously indicating that a covered faciltiy is most appropriate for the site then he will change his view on the type of facility that should be built.

 

With a closed facility you can attach stores, restaurants and even a hotel, to the facility that will broaden the traffic for the project that can possibly enhance his current developments in the area.

 

Your arguments that a sports arena/stadium don't producte enough economic return to justify a project is correct to an extent if it is only used simply as an economic decision. But that doesn't necessarily mean that that type of project can't be justified. The current arena where NHL games are played may not on balance equal the cost of the facility but most people would agree that it is an important resource for the region. Kleinhans Music Hall is a very respected facilty that from an economic return standpoint is not jutifiable. But many people believe that it is an important cultural asset for the region.

 

If the Lucas Oil facility was not built in Indianapolis I guarantee you that there would be no team in the state of Indiana. The Colts would probably be the LA Colts. Solely using an economic metric the stadium was a bad economic deal but in general the people in that region are glad that it was built.

 

The main issue for me regarding a new facility (if it is to be built) is who is going to pay and of the parties paying for the facility what are the payment portions. I am absolutely against a totally or mostly paid for facility with public funds. But that doesn't mean that with a sizeable owner contribution, NFL stadium financing subsidy and even financing contributions from the designated concession company that the finances can't be made to work out.

 

If you are going to build a new facility, especially if it is located near the waterfront, then the added expenditure over a long period of time is not much greater than building an open facility.

 

Let's not have any more scrambling to move games to another city that has a covered facility. Do it right and have no regrets!

[Kirby Jackson]

I believe with a domed stadium or not. seats will be way more than double? WNY still does not have a viable economy to make the investement in a dome or maybe any stadium economically viable for the owner(s). Look at every single "sellout" this season and count the hundreds of empty Club seats everywhere around the stadium. The Miami game, The Pegulas first game (the pats) had hundreds of empty seats in the Kelly club. reason being not a lot of people can pay 200+ ( tiered pricing) for those seats. Plus they do not count against a sellout. I believe in NJ if you want seasons lower bowl between the 20's as a season ticket holder that will set you back $400 per game per seat.

 

I do not see the Buffalo economy supporting that. In Jerrah's palace a standing room OBSTRUCTED view chunk of real estate will set you back around $110. How would people support any of that in Buffalo with a dome? I am pretty sure Pegula at least needs to break even on his sports investments. And they are investments. if not for the narrow concourses I think dropping 300 mil in the Ralph would be the best move. Pegula is going to have to raise ticked prices, that will signal the end of the Pegula honeymoon. sellouts will be tough.

Lucas Oil cost like $800M I believe. That is roughly the number in my head.

 

In terms of the pricing their will be many more tiers but lower bowl between the 20's will be way closer to $200 than to $100. Their will be Torres benefits and access as well. It is about the real estate. Part of the reason that those indoor clubs never sold is because the view was the equivalent of a $240 season ticket. Did the amenities justify the ticket being 10X as expensive as the seats right below it? Of course not. The Bills are very, very, very, very, very aware of this. They will never come out and say we are doing it to raise revenues but it is a really easy decision on their part.

 

In addition, the stadium will have less seats I would think. They can create some supply and demand like that and still raise revenues substantially. When I worked in the NBA we shrunk our capacity by over 200 seats and raised our revenues by $1M by rescaling (not a price increase). We just created more prime seating at the expense of volume. It is possible in an NBA arena to pay more for 2 season ticket than 200. That isn't hyperbole either. 2 seats with the feet on the wood often are AT LEAST $100K for the pair. Their are seats that are $500 for the season upstairs. On a side note that is one way that you see team artificially inflate attendance. They comp the feet on the wood seats and monetize 200 seats upstairs that they donate.

 

The bottom line is there will be more pricing tiers, more amenities and a roof. It is something that we should embrace (especially if it is totally privately funded). If you've been to Houston or Detroit or Indianapolis and seen those places it is exciting.

 

ONE MORE THING: The reason that the retro fit was never really an option is because of the above. Can you realistically double the price of the seat that someone has sat in for 50 years? Of course not!! The attrition and collateral damage would be insane. With a new stadium there won't be a similar sense of ownership over the seats. You won't be sitting next to the same people that you used to, parking in the same place, etc... There is a psychological element to it as well.

Edited November 26, 2014 by Kirby Jackson

[purple haze]

We should lose the term "dome." The last dome built was probably 20 years ago. We need to think indoor facility. These places are like large versions of an arena.

 

In terms of the seating it has to do with the best inventory in the stadium is not priced as such. The seats 20 rows up at the 50 should be significantly more expensive than the seats in the end zone. It is a whole rescaling that needs to occur. That is the case in those other cities. The people sitting in those seats in Buffalo now are the longest tenured not necessarily the business community. The longest tenured people will still have 1st crack at those in a new stadium but the price may be (probably will be) double what they are paying now. This will force one of two things them to either quit or to move to a location that best serves their budget. This will create new, more expensive inventory. In order to move this inventory the Bills need to broaden their candidate pool. The roof will do that.

 

I've tried to go in greater depth elsewhere but that is the crux of it. This is the exact kind of thing that I used to work on and have a pretty good sense for it. Those other cities that you mentioned have a little better weather and a large enough pool of candidates to not have to worry about what the Bills have to worry about. They already had that audience in play. They didn't need to attract them. In addition, their stadiums are all 15 years old or whatever. If they did it over maybe it would be different?

 

Thank you for breaking it down. I get it. But I still prefer it to be outside. Indoor facilities, when the roof is closed is not a great atmosphere.

[Kirby Jackson]

 

 

Thank you for breaking it down. I get it. But I still prefer it to be outside. Indoor facilities, when the roof is closed is not a great atmosphere.

It depends on the people though. The crowd here in New Orleans can be raucous (and loud). I thought that Houston was pretty dead but nowhere near the church like atmosphere in New England. Bills fans have been and always will be amongst the best. It doesn't matter if we are inside, outside or upside down. We can create whatever atmosphere we choose. I don't see the entire environment changing at all. I just think that we will be broadening the base. No one will be excluded moving forward.

 

In addition, a top end facility will only aid in the recruitment of free agents.

[May Day 10]

 

ONE MORE THING: The reason that the retro fit was never really an option is because of the above. Can you realistically double the price of the seat that someone has sat in for 50 years? Of course not!! The attrition and collateral damage would be insane. With a new stadium there won't be a similar sense of ownership over the seats. You won't be sitting next to the same people that you used to, parking in the same place, etc... There is a psychological element to it as well.

 

I know a number of former NY Jets fans who would strongly disagree with this

[tombstone56]

IMO putting a stadium in buffalo is " putting a silk purse on a sows ear". .

[Kirby Jackson]

 

 

I know a number of former NY Jets fans who would strongly disagree with this

What would they disagree with that they could afford it? If the same people stay at double the price the Bills would be thrilled. Just to be clear the Bills don't care who fills those seats, they just care that they are filled. They need to broaden their appeal to attract a bigger pool of people.

 

All that I was saying is that you can't do it in the same stadium via a retrofit. The retrofit has never been a realistic option. It is just something thrown out to appease the segment pf the public that vehemently opposes public financing. They can point to that as a more fiscally responsible solution. It is not realistic at all.

Edited November 26, 2014 by Kirby Jackson