A Few Thoughts About The Game, in no particular order.....

[JPS]

Matthew Fairburn writing for syracuse.com noted that EJ is going to be in contact with his mental coach from FSU. I don't even know how to adequately and appropriately respond to this, if true. A mental coach. You've got to be kidding me. Unbelievable.

 

"Prior to the game, Albert Breer of NFL Network reported Manuel was again working with his mental conditioning coach from Florida State."

 

Marrone cannot fix someone who's been told for years that he's good. Nor can Hostler, Downing, or Hackett. If a guy's mentally weak because no one has been hard on him at times, then the NFL isn't the correct venue to start.

"EJ, you are good. You are confident. And gosh darn it, people like you".

 

That oughta do it.

[boyst]

Thank you.

 

Tough guy syndrome runs rampant around here. It's a wonder all of the hulking, ultra-confident supermen around these parts haven't already conquered the NFL, Al Qaeda, Antarctica and space the way some people talk.

 

Working with the equivalent of a mental fitness coach is no more a sign of weakness than is working with a strength and conditioning coach.

Listen buddy, I lift weights and I workout, eat beef, I'm a big strong guy with a big truck.

 

I'm tough.

 

Bills Vet and a lot of these guys are not trying to be tough. I do not mean disrespect because it is somewhat ignorance. These major college programs truly coddle these guys because they have a professional to help them at every need because those little things make a difference. A team Dr., Chiropractor, Masseuse, Chaplin, psychologist, PA's - even entire offices made to make sure they can succeed in school.

[K-9]

Im not against the benching......but just understand people that if Orton comes in and also sucks.....your not going back to EJ this year......

 

Benching him will probably crush whatever confidence he has left....he will literally need to be biult back up in practice

 

If that's the case, he's not the QB we thought he was anyway. Starters have been benched before and have come back to stake their claim. It may be a moot point after next Sunday, anyway.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[Best Player Available]

 

Thank you.

 

Tough guy syndrome runs rampant around here. It's a wonder all of the hulking, ultra-confident supermen around these parts haven't already conquered the NFL, Al Qaeda, Antarctica and space the way some people talk.

 

Working with the equivalent of a mental fitness coach is no more a sign of weakness than is working with a strength and conditioning coach.

I know I hope he gets some work in with his sensativity coach too. So much to do instead of having even a sembelence of game in him.

[BillsVet]

I get what your first thought may be but I want to chime in here.

 

Mental health and the entire viewpoint of mentality in this world is whack.

 

We work out our muscles and we train and condition our bodies for athletic endeavors. The mind is no different. Throwing motions for QB's, balance drills for RB's, tip drills for DB's, bird dogging for OL and kicking field goals... you get it.

 

There is nothing wrong with adjusting mental strength.

 

Mental toughness is an oft-described concept that I don't think is discussed properly. That said, we have an issue where kids today are told they're doing well when they're not. When those kids become adults, the big boy and big girl world is hard for them to adjust to and they struggle.

 

Sure there are exceptions and the old-school ways of yelling at people all the time isn't healthy either. I just get the sense EJ's been told he's great and now that's obviously not the case he's struggling.

 

I don't know anything about EJ's upbringing, but I'll go out on a limb and say he's never really dealt with adversity the way he needs to now. And to echo what Coach Tuesday say above, he's done if he's gotta get mentality coaching.

[dave mcbride]

Matthew Fairburn writing for syracuse.com noted that EJ is going to be in contact with his mental coach from FSU. I don't even know how to adequately and appropriately respond to this, if true. A mental coach. You've got to be kidding me. Unbelievable.

 

"Prior to the game, Albert Breer of NFL Network reported Manuel was again working with his mental conditioning coach from Florida State."

 

Marrone cannot fix someone who's been told for years that he's good. Nor can Hostler, Downing, or Hackett. If a guy's mentally weak because no one has been hard on him at times, then the NFL isn't the correct venue to start.

 

I don't think it'll work, but I don't think it's fair to criticize Manuel for this. There are so many misconceptions about mental issues (and, obviously, mental illness, which isn't at issue here) already, and we shouldn't reinforce them by criticizing a guy suffering from a variation of the yips for trying to address the problem.

 

At any rate, no one should be criticized for consulting a sports psychologist.

Edited September 29, 2014 by dave mcbride

[RuntheDamnBall]

Listen buddy, I lift weights and I workout, eat beef, I'm a big strong guy with a big truck.

 

I'm tough.

I'd never doubt it! And that's the truth.

 

Bills Vet and a lot of these guys are not trying to be tough. I do not mean disrespect because it is somewhat ignorance. These major college programs truly coddle these guys because they have a professional to help them at every need because those little things make a difference. A team Dr., Chiropractor, Masseuse, Chaplin, psychologist, PA's - even entire offices made to make sure they can succeed in school.

I was reading accusation that EJ is mentally weak based on this evidence, to mean that BillsVet is making a value judgment on what toughness is.

 

A team Chaplin though? In these Modern Times?

[FireChan]

Remember this thread?

 

http://forums.twobillsdrive.com/topic/163887-looking-backskip-bayless-is-such-a-dramatic-tool/

[Chilly]

 

I'd never doubt it! And that's the truth.

 

 

I was reading accusation that EJ is mentally weak based on this evidence, to mean that BillsVet is making a value judgment on what toughness is.

 

A team Chaplin though? In these Modern Times?

 

I believe our team Chaplin is saint Doug.

[RuntheDamnBall]

Mental toughness is an oft-described concept that I don't think is discussed properly. That said, we have an issue where kids today are told they're doing well when they're not. When those kids become adults, the big boy and big girl world is hard for them to adjust to and they struggle.

 

Sure there are exceptions and the old-school ways of yelling at people all the time isn't healthy either. I just get the sense EJ's been told he's great and now that's obviously not the case he's struggling.

 

I don't know anything about EJ's upbringing, but I'll go out on a limb and say he's never really dealt with adversity the way he needs to now. And to echo what Coach Tuesday say above, he's done if he's gotta get mentality coaching.

You think Tom Brady doesn't utilize a therapist?

 

I'm sure he does, and he probably laughs his mentally weak ass all the way to the bank. All sorts of successful people do, and it frequently has little to do with the "amount of adversity" they've dealt with.

 

Also, re: adversity, why don't you read up on EJ's senior season and come back to this one?

[birdog1960]

how many elite qb's, past or present, required the assistance of an attitude guru? i'm thinking inner strength is part of the elusive "it" factor that the bills can't seem to find in a qb. it's not enough on it's own as fitzpatrick clearly possesses it, but without it, i don't think there's much hope.

[RuntheDamnBall]

how many elite qb's, past or present, required the assistance of an attitude guru?

I don't know. How many?

[Coach Tuesday]

No one is bashing EJ as a person. Therapy is a good thing for anyone and it takes courage to admit you need it.

 

But the issue here is that the coaches' lack of strategic planning appears to have crushed his confidence. Once that happens to a young QB, the situations are rare that the QB's career turns out well.

[DC Greg]

 

Thank you.

 

Tough guy syndrome runs rampant around here. It's a wonder all of the hulking, ultra-confident supermen around these parts haven't already conquered the NFL, Al Qaeda, Antarctica and space the way some people talk.

 

Working with the equivalent of a mental fitness coach is no more a sign of weakness than is working with a strength and conditioning coach.

 

Please. His weakness is the sign of weakness. He's a weak runner, a weaker passer, and a weak quarterback.

 

This forum is the most polite internet thing I've ever seen. Credit to the mods for keeping it so clean. But knee j is on blast tonight.

 

Let me clean it up a bit... EJ Manuel plays football like a coward. Better?

[RuntheDamnBall]

Please. His weakness is the sign of weakness. He's a weak runner, a weaker passer, and a weak quarterback.

 

This forum is the most polite internet thing I've ever seen. Credit to the mods for keeping it so clean. But knee j is on blast tonight.

 

Let me clean it up a bit... EJ Manuel plays football like a coward. Better?

Sure, if it makes you feel good to say it. Let it all out. It's not your fault.

[dave mcbride]

No one is bashing EJ as a person. Therapy is a good thing for anyone and it takes courage to admit you need it.

 

But the issue here is that the coaches' lack of strategic planning appears to have crushed his confidence. Once that happens to a young QB, the situations are rare that the QB's career turns out well.

What lack of strategic planning are you referring to? The offensive design seems to have wide open receivers running free on practically every play. How is that the coaches' fault?

 

Honestly, I think these coaches are getting a bum rap. They're putting the offense in a position to succeed; the QB just can't hit open receivers.

[DC Greg]

Also, as you rush to defend poor, delicate EJ, please consider his salary earned NOT taking the hits to earn it. Literally avoiding contact at every turn.

 

Even though (please dear god) he'll never get the big NFL payday, he's still taking the Bills and us, the fans, for all we're worth.

 

Hope his mental coach is the best money can buy.

[birdog1960]

I don't know. How many?

i don't know either. no one does. sports psychology is at best soft "science", imo. nearly impossible to objectively measure results.

[DC Greg]

 

Sure, if it makes you feel good to say it. Let it all out. It's not your fault.

 

 

Feels GREAT actually. Knew he sucked tried to do my part as a Bills fan to Billieve. I mean there are just no positives to be found in his play. None.

[RuntheDamnBall]

Also, as you rush to defend poor, delicate EJ, please consider his salary earned NOT taking the hits to earn it. Literally avoiding contact at every turn.

 

Even though (please dear god) he'll never get the big NFL payday, he's still taking the Bills and us, the fans, for all we're worth.

 

Hope his mental coach is the best money can buy.

I'm not rushing to defend anyone. I'm rushing to clear up an obvious misconception. In any case, your mind seems made up, so... congrats?

[Coach Tuesday]

 

What lack of strategic planning are you referring to? The offensive design seems to have wide open receivers running free on practically every play. How is that the coaches' fault?

 

Honestly, I think these coaches are getting a bum rap. They're putting the offense in a position to succeed; the QB just can't hit open receivers.

 

No vet mentor to learn behind last year (DONT SAY KOLB)

 

Last year's "hurry up and fail" offense

 

No guards

 

No tight ends

 

No WR screens

 

A poorly-conceived running game

 

Few designed rollouts

 

Watkins instead of Benjamin and a guard

 

No competition at the position

 

No backup plan at the position

Edited September 29, 2014 by Coach Tuesday

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

Changing QB doesn't change the HC/OC problem. This coaching staff calls plays as if they are petrified of mistakes just like the Dick Jauron regime did. It's pure torture watching them on offense.

 

I disagree. If this were a Jauron team Spiller and Jackson would have run the ball twice as much today, which actually probably would have equaled a win. And I don't think it is fair to judge the actual pass plays called because of our incompetent QB.

Edited September 29, 2014 by Sammy Watkins' Rib

[K-9]

Can't believe anyone is surprised by the use of a sports psychologist. They are common and I don't know of too many major programs that don't employ them at one time or another. I get that people are going to pick up anything handy to bust EJ over the head with, but this strikes me as narrow minded. Especially when there is no shortage of other things to bust on him about.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[DisplacedBillsFan]

What sucks the most is coming to this board and reading all the pessimism. Reading all the b*tch*ng is WAY harder to stomach than the poor play displayed on the field today.

[DC Greg]

 

 

If I had to choose between Manuel and Trent Edwards, I'd take Edwards. Neither quarterback is going to throw the ball more than 5 yards past the line of scrimmage. (Except on extremely rare occasions.) But at least Edwards' 0 - 5 yard passes are going to be more accurate than Manuel's.

 

That is so pathetic and so, so true. How low have we sunk that people are still like "just let him get through a FULL season. No not just 16 games. Start to finish. If he gets hurt again... one more do-over" There have been no "flashes" with this kid, people. We deluded ourselves into thinking him making a few STANDARD nfl throws here or there were "flashes". What a complete joke.

[RuntheDamnBall]

Can't believe anyone is surprised by the use of a sports psychologist. They are common and I don't know of too many major programs that don't employ them at one time or another. I get that people are going to pick up anything handy to bust EJ over the head with, but this strikes me as narrow minded. Especially when there is no shortage of other things to bust on him about.

 

GO BILLS!!!

I can't believe that you can't believe people here are surprised.

[dave mcbride]

Can't believe anyone is surprised by the use of a sports psychologist. They are common and I don't know of too many major programs that don't employ them at one time or another. I get that people are going to pick up anything handy to bust EJ over the head with, but this strikes me as narrow minded. Especially when there is no shortage of other things to bust on him about.

 

GO BILLS!!!

Great post. Some people ...

[K-9]

I can't believe that you can't believe people here are surprised.

 

I can't believe I'm surprised you said that.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[ThrowingFitz]

Remember this thread?

 

http://forums.twobil...-dramatic-tool/

 

All I can say is wow. Their forecast was dead on.

[BillsVet]

I was reading accusation that EJ is mentally weak based on this evidence, to mean that BillsVet is making a value judgment on what toughness is.

 

A team Chaplin though? In these Modern Times?

 

Frankly, you don't know me. And I don't know you.

 

But I know a little bit about mental toughness and leadership from experience being tested in a third world country.

 

The way an individual responds when they're down is important. I don't expect EJ to stand up and say he stunk, but I don't expect sulking either. Leadership is something that becomes infectious to an organization, good or bad. And I believe his teammates are watching their QB get down, which can be a huge negative in that locker room. A mentality coach isn't going to resolve this issue either.

[The Frankish Reich]

I dunno -- Kyle Williams could probably do a great Matt Foley, Motivational Speaker thing for EJ.

 

[DC Greg]

What sucks the most is coming to this board and reading all the pessimism. Reading all the b*tch*ng is WAY harder to stomach than the poor play displayed on the field today.

 

I hear that. Sorry to pile on. But today's performance is hard to view with "pessimism". Pessimism would be like oh we lost and that stinks and i don't think we can win these close games etc. The last two weeks have been more like... wow. This is the most incompetent display of (offensive) football I've seen at almost any level. It's really that bad.

 

I'm watching a real NFL game right now. Watching the saints get down but not completely crumble. Watching them to be able to run some plays and sustain a drive here or there. The way the Bills lose is just... i mean how do you describe it? How do you describe a team (or offense rather) that always shys from the moment? Never lifts the team. Better hope the D or special teams (or fred jackson single handedly) makes a play. Otherwise, forget it. 3 and out like clockwork.

[Orton's Arm]

Thank you.

 

Tough guy syndrome runs rampant around here. It's a wonder all of the hulking, ultra-confident supermen around these parts haven't already conquered the NFL, Al Qaeda, Antarctica and space the way some people talk.

 

Working with the equivalent of a mental fitness coach is no more a sign of weakness than is working with a strength and conditioning coach.

 

> Working with the equivalent of a mental fitness coach is no more a sign of weakness than is working with a strength and conditioning coach.

 

Agreed. For example: someone will accomplish more with positive visualization than he would have without it. The right mental fitness coach can teach you techniques like that. The fact that Manuel is reaching out to a mental fitness coach is an indication he's making a good faith effort to save his career. Nothing wrong with that.

 

But all the positive visualization in the world isn't going to turn a 100 pound weakling into a starting-caliber NFL guard. Nor will it turn Manuel into a starting-caliber quarterback.

[Prickly Pete]

What sucks the most is coming to this board and reading all the pessimism. Reading all the b*tch*ng is WAY harder to stomach than the poor play displayed on the field today.

 

Then don't read it. No one is forcing you, and what could you expect after a game like that, and so many years of futility?

[RuntheDamnBall]

I hear that. Sorry to pile on. But today's performance is hard to view with "pessimism". Pessimism would be like oh we lost and that stinks and i don't think we can win these close games etc. The last two weeks have been more like... wow. This is the most incompetent display of (offensive) football I've seen at almost any level. It's really that bad.

You should nuke some popcorn and go back to that 6-3 Browns game.

[BuffaninATL]

so here are my thoughts, in no particular order:

• this was a demoralizing game to watch; unlike the SD game, which was clearly played against a superior team, this was a loss against a lesser team. Any way you want to slice it, we gave away a very winnable game due to one player's inadequacies: EJ Manuel, who happens to play the most important position in the game. The 2-0 start now seems like a mirage and playoff teams simply don't give away games like today's
  
• Many have commented in this thread about the poor offensive game plan; I'll add this - great coaches put their players in the best position to make plays; this OC does the opposite
  
• This team has talent on both sides of the ball - lots of it. It's a damn shame it's being squandered by an inept OC and a substandard QB
  
• Speaking of EJ, I for one am skeptical of potential improvement with more coaching/development; I mean, can coaching improve glaring deficiencies in accuracy, mechanics, decision-making, situational awareness, and heart? I think not.
  
• Speaking of mechanics, EJ looks like he is a pushing a shot put....it's pretty obvious when you are called out by Jim Kelly and someone like Solomon Wlicots
  
• He is missing WRs in spades (every game) and is going to get a teammate killed as he insists on throwing a crappy 5 yard pass to a WR/RB who has a target on his head. These are awful weaknesses.
  
• When was the last time you saw EJ really, truly inspire his teammates with exceptional play or carry the team on his back? NEVER
  
• Don't give me this crap about "he's only played 15 games, give him time" - that has been debunked countless times. We needed to win this frigging game and this HC was afraid to make a ballsy decision and give Orton the ball. What's more important Doug - winning the game or hurting someone's feelings?
  
• I worry about the psyche of this team; can they handle a loss like this while giving everything they have to win the damn game if not for the ineptitude of their QB? I am especially feeling bad for guys like Kyle and FredEx, guys who have given everything to this organization and city but are fast approaching the end of their careers......
  
• I hope Pegula makes his mark soon on this team. I feel badly for the people of WNY who are sold hope every offseason, then have to live through a dumpster fire during the season. I know how much this team means to the entire region, how proud Buffalonians are, and feel terribly bad about the crap endured by the most loyal fan base in all of sports because of terrible decision-making, coaching, and personnel management.
  

[DisplacedBillsFan]

 

 

I hear that. Sorry to pile on. But today's performance is hard to view with "pessimism". Pessimism would be like oh we lost and that stinks and i don't think we can win these close games etc. The last two weeks have been more like... wow. This is the most incompetent display of (offensive) football I've seen at almost any level. It's really that bad.

 

I'm watching a real NFL game right now. Watching the saints get down but not completely crumble. Watching them to be able to run some plays and sustain a drive here or there. The way the Bills lose is just... i mean how do you describe it? How do you describe a team (or offense rather) that always shys from the moment? Never lifts the team. Better hope the D or special teams (or fred jackson single handedly) makes a play. Otherwise, forget it. 3 and out like clockwork.

 

I get the offense was bad. Especially frustrating because we could have won by running more. But, hypothetically here, say PI is called on EJ's pick at the end of the game, like it should have been. Hypothetically, say he throws a TD to win the game one play later. That's one play different than what we saw. By all accounts, still a horrible game for EJ. However, we wouldn't have nearly as much pessimism, because of the win. The missed receivers, tipped passes, late throws, etc. would be an afterthought.

 

EJ is a young QB. Our coaches are a young staff. Both need to improve drastically. That being said, it does the franchise no good firing coaches or benching our 1st round QB at this point. EJ has potential. Our coaches have potential to be great. They need the opportunity to learn from mistakes and take that next step.

 

Don't get me wrong. I would love to win now. Orton could maybe provide this. Maybe not. I'm more interested in finding consistency to win for years. EJ needs to play so we can determine if he is part of the future.

 

Also, we'll make the playoffs this year.

[dave mcbride]

so here are my thoughts, in no particular order:

• this was a demoralizing game to watch; unlike the SD game, which was clearly played against a superior team, this was a loss against a lesser team. Any way you want to slice it, we gave away a very winnable game due to one player's inadequacies: EJ Manuel, who happens to play the most important position in the game. The 2-0 start now seems like a mirage and playoff teams simply don't give away games like today's
  
• Many have commented in this thread about the poor offensive game plan; I'll add this - great coaches put their players in the best position to make plays; this OC does the opposite
  
• This team has talent on both sides of the ball - lots of it. It's a damn shame it's being squandered by an inept OC and a substandard QB
  
• Speaking of EJ, I for one am skeptical of potential improvement with more coaching/development; I mean, can coaching improve glaring deficiencies in accuracy, mechanics, decision-making, situational awareness, and heart? I think not.
  
• Speaking of mechanics, EJ looks like he is a pushing a shot put....it's pretty obvious when you are called out by Jim Kelly and someone like Solomon Wlicots
  
• He is missing WRs in spades (every game) and is going to get a teammate killed as he insists on throwing a crappy 5 yard pass to a WR/RB who has a target on his head. These are awful weaknesses.
  
• When was the last time you saw EJ really, truly inspire his teammates with exceptional play or carry the team on his back? NEVER
  
• Don't give me this crap about "he's only played 15 games, give him time" - that has been debunked countless times. We needed to win this frigging game and this HC was afraid to make a ballsy decision and give Orton the ball. What's more important Doug - winning the game or hurting someone's feelings?
  
• I worry about the psyche of this team; can they handle a loss like this while giving everything they have to win the damn game if not for the ineptitude of their QB? I am especially feeling bad for guys like Kyle and FredEx, guys who have given everything to this organization and city but are fast approaching the end of their careers......
  
• I hope Pegula makes his mark soon on this team. I feel badly for the people of WNY who are sold hope every offseason, then have to live through a dumpster fire during the season. I know how much this team means to the entire region, how proud Buffalonians are, and feel terribly bad about the crap endured by the most loyal fan base in all of sports because of terrible decision-making, coaching, and personnel management.
  

I'll say it again about the coaches -- receivers were wide open all game. The coaches pu them in position. They can't throw the ball though. They're getting a bum rap because the qb is staggeringly inaccurate.

[The Frankish Reich]

Fantastic post, BuffaninATL ... I would add only this: EJ was drafted because he was going to be a mobile quarterback. He showed today that he is less mobile than even Fitz. Longest run this year? 8 yards. I don't know if he's hurting, if he's scared he'll get hurt, or if he's simply been overcoached/cautioned into paralysis, but I do know you can't win when you're that tentative.

[DisplacedBillsFan]

 

 

Then don't read it. No one is forcing you, and what could you expect after a game like that, and so many years of futility?

 

Typical response. Of course I'm not being forced to read it. I guess what I meant to say, which obviously applies to you, is quit being such ****ty fans.