Kyle Orton vs EJ Manuel

[Kurt Warner]

Problem is if Orton does play it's not a good sign. Either the line has gotton EJ killed (very likely) or EJ has put us in a big hole after one month. Orton may be ok but not likely someone to carry a team and win 5 in a row which is probably what we'd need by the time he plays. I wish the o-line was looking better. That's probably our biggest problem at the moment bc it is making EJ even worse and preventing him from making some meaningful progress. Just my opinion.

 

Also, let's pickup Tebow just to play with Orton's mind. Could you imagine that locker room? Orton would love that plus 2QB controversies are so boring and we've done that before. Let's dress 3 and have the first full blown 3QB controversy. Get some people watching the Bills anyway!

[Best Player Available]

 

 

Sort of. He hasn't filled the papers, but he's not on a team. As others have mentioned, he'd probably come back for some team, but perhaps not Buffalo.

I think you need better sources.

[The Dean]

Problem is if Orton does play it's not a good sign. Either the line has gotton EJ killed (very likely) or EJ has put us in a big hole after one month.

 

That's the bottom line here. If the OL is solid, the running game should flourish and EJ is usually fine when he has time to throw. Not great yet, mind you, but fine. If the line is solid, we'll actually get to see if EJ develops as hoped. But make no mistake about it, the Bills running game should be the driver for their early success. If that falls apart, Orton is probably doomed as well.

 

Of course, if the OL plays well and the running game is good, it is still good to have Orton in case of injury.

[26CornerBlitz]

Report: Bills to sign QB Kyle Orton: http://www.wgr550.co....php?pid=424384

 

Orton has 70 career starts to his name and has won exactly half of them. Over his eight years of experience, the quarterback has thrown for 15,019 yards, 83 touchdowns and 59 interceptions with a 58.5 completion percentage.

 

Even as a seasoned vet, do these numbers say Orton is significantly better than EJ or better at all for that matter? If you think so, take a look at EJ's rookie numbers that project very similarly.

 

Say hello to a quality backup QB. Much needed acquisition.

[The_Dude]

Orton is a poor mans Drew Brees. He's smart and accurate. He doesn't have a cannon but he does have a bit of zip on the ball which I prefer to EJs floaters. And while Orton may not be able throw 80 yards what's wrong with a 18 yard deep out/in to Sammy? Get Sammy that ball and Sammy will make up the remaining 62 yards.

[Fadingpain]

Orton is a poor mans Drew Brees. He's smart and accurate. He doesn't have a cannon but he does have a bit of zip on the ball which I prefer to EJs floaters. And while Orton may not be able throw 80 yards what's wrong with a 18 yard deep out/in to Sammy? Get Sammy that ball and Sammy will make up the remaining 62 yards.

 

Sadly, a lot of posters on this forum do not understand that a Poor Man's Drew Brees is a considerable upgrade at the QB position for the Buffalo Bills in 2014.

[DefenseWinzChampionshipz]

Orton is a poor mans Drew Brees. He's smart and accurate. He doesn't have a cannon but he does have a bit of zip on the ball which I prefer to EJs floaters. And while Orton may not be able throw 80 yards what's wrong with a 18 yard deep out/in to Sammy? Get Sammy that ball and Sammy will make up the remaining 62 yards.

 

All I took from this is that we will be starting from our own 20 yard line.

 

Nah I get it though. I'm not ready to bench EJ but having Orton as the backup is so much better than Tuel so to me it's a decent pickup. Could be worse. We could have Tuel as our backup.

[C.Biscuit97]

I am shocked. 4 pages into a KO v EJ thread and nobody has put up any meaningless stats.

 

I'll just have to do it then....

 

EJ Career & first 10 starts:

QBR: 77.7

Comp%: 58.8%

YPA: 6.4

TD%: 3.6%

INT%: 2.9%

 

KO Career:

QBR: 79.9

Comp%: 58.5%

YPA: 6.6

TD%: 3.7%

INT%: 2.6%

 

KO first 10 starts:

QBR: 62.5

Comp%: 54.9%

YPA: 5.3

TD%: 3.0%

INT%: 4.2%

 

Looks to me like we can expect KO to play to a similar level to that of what EJ did last season.

 

Dib, you're such a quality poster and it's a shame that idiots who want to replace EJ at all costs don't listen. Orton will be a great backup. He's like a dumber Fitz.

 

But Our worse case scenario with EJ is he has a Kyle Orton career. Only in the mind of morons, Orton is better than EJ.

 

I love Orton as a backup and that position improved a ton. But the idea of him playing significant games is sickening.

[The_Dude]

 

 

All I took from this is that we will be starting from our own 20 yard line.

 

Nah I get it though. I'm not ready to bench EJ but having Orton as the backup is so much better than Tuel so to me it's a decent pickup. Could be worse. We could have Tuel as our backup.

 

Orton is the backup. But he is not the 'this is our backup who will play if our starter gets hurt' kind of backup. He's the 'we're not sure about our starter so we're bringing this guy in in case our starter face plants' kind of backup. There should be no doubt about that.

 

 

 

Dib, you're such a quality poster and it's a shame that idiots who want to replace EJ at all costs don't listen. Orton will be a great backup. He's like a dumber Fitz.

 

But Our worse case scenario with EJ is he has a Kyle Orton career. Only in the mind of morons, Orton is better than EJ.

 

I love Orton as a backup and that position improved a ton. But the idea of him playing significant games is sickening.

 

I'm positive Orton is better. Just my take. I think Orton is the same quality as Andy Dalton. And I'll take Andy Dalton over EJ all day. EJs physically gifted and that's not up for dispute...but that's about where it ends IMO.

[C.Biscuit97]

 

 

Orton is the backup. But he is not the 'this is our backup who will play if our starter gets hurt' kind of backup. He's the 'we're not sure about our starter so we're bringing this guy in in case our starter face plants' kind of backup. There should be no doubt about that.

 

 

 

I'm positive Orton is better. Just my take. I think Orton is the same quality as Andy Dalton. And I'll take Andy Dalton over EJ all day. EJs physically gifted and that's not up for dispute...but that's about where it ends IMO.

 

You realize Orton has like a 50 qb rating as a rookie. His career qb rating is basically what EJ had as a rookie.

 

Yet, Orton is definitely better??? Makes sense.

[26CornerBlitz]

You realize Orton has like a 50 qb rating as a rookie. His career qb rating is basically what EJ had as a rookie.

 

Yet, Orton is definitely better??? Makes sense.

 

The hatred of EJ by some blinds them to any semblance of truth and fairness in their assessment of EJ. It's rather pathetic IMO.

[The_Dude]

 

 

You realize Orton has like a 50 qb rating as a rookie. His career qb rating is basically what EJ had as a rookie.

 

Yet, Orton is definitely better??? Makes sense.

 

I'm not a fan of stats. I was sooo unimpressed with EJs rookie year. I don't believe he'll ever be good and I understand that his stats are on par with that of rookie years of quality QBs.

 

I understand your argument. You're not wrong in your thinking but I disagree.

[The Dean]

I'm not a fan of stats.

 

Baring any intelligent reason to believe otherwise, I read "I'm not a fan of stats" and think you mean "I don't really understand how stats translate to success or failure."

 

Prove me wrong.

[C.Biscuit97]

 

 

I'm not a fan of stats. I was sooo unimpressed with EJs rookie year. I don't believe he'll ever be good and I understand that his stats are on par with that of rookie years of quality QBs.

 

I understand your argument. You're not wrong in your thinking but I disagree.

 

I respect your opinion but I just don't get it. If EJ basically did what Orton has done as a career, why can't the 23 year old improve to an even higher level?

 

I LOVE Orton as a backup. But there's a reason he's been a backup most of his career. He is very limited. His ability to go through progressions is better than EJ at this point but that's about it. EJ's upside is insanely higher. Orton is our worse case scenario. But it's a great backup plan. Jmo.

[Dibs]

Dib, you're such a quality poster and it's a shame that idiots who want to replace EJ at all costs don't listen. Orton will be a great backup. He's like a dumber Fitz.

 

But Our worse case scenario with EJ is he has a Kyle Orton career. Only in the mind of morons, Orton is better than EJ.

 

I love Orton as a backup and that position improved a ton. But the idea of him playing significant games is sickening.

 

Thanks for that. I sometimes feel like an awful lot of posters have me on ignore.

 

Upon seeing my last post though, I thought the stats were a bit misrepresentative in that I showed KO's poor first 10 start stats....and his career start stats.....but neglected to show how good a QB he may have developed into.....i.e. his last 10 starts stats.

 

 

KO last 10 starts:

QBR: 72.9

Comp%: 58.8%

YPA: 6.8

TD%: 3.3

INT%: 4.1%

 

And repeated for the easy comparison...

 

EJ last season(10 starts):

QBR: 77.7

Comp%: 58.8

YPA: 6.4

TD%: 3.6%

INT%: 2.9%

 

I honestly thought the experienced Orton stats would show him pulling away a bit. Instead we see his stats regress from his career average. In essence, KO played considerably worse in his last 10 starts than the rookie EJ.

Edited August 30, 2014 by Dibs

[youngunz]

This isn't a hate on EJ posting.

 

Really, certainly looks like it..

 

1. If you are quantifying your post in the first sentence

2. If you are posting something before the ink dries on the "backups" contract

[C.Biscuit97]

 

 

Thanks for that. I sometimes feel like an awful lot of posters have me on ignore.

 

Upon seeing my last post though, I thought the stats were a bit misrepresentative in that I showed KO's poor first 10 start stats....and his career start stats.....but neglected to show how good a QB he may have developed into.....i.e. his last 10 starts stats.

 

 

KO last 10 starts:

QBR: 72.9

Comp%: 58.8%

YPA: 6.8

TD%: 3.3

INT%: 4.1%

 

And repeated for the easy comparison...

 

EJ last season(10 starts):

QBR: 77.7

Comp%: 58.8

YPA: 6.4

TD%: 3.6%

INT%: 2.9%

 

I honestly thought the experienced Orton stats would show him pulling away a bit. Instead we see his stats regress from his career average. In essence, KO played considerably worse in his last 10 starts than the rookie EJ.

 

Orton is what he is. He's a guy in the Firz vein (thigh I think Fitz is better). He's solid spot starter, good backup, & not good enough to be a full time starter.

 

We don't know what EJ's career is yet.

[The Dean]

Orton is what he is. He's a guy in the Firz vein (thigh I think Fitz is better). He's solid spot starter, good backup, & not good enough to be a full time starter.

 

We don't know what EJ's career is yet.

 

Well some of us don't. Apparently some here already know the future of EJ. Wouldn't it be great to have that amazing gift.

Edited August 30, 2014 by The Dean

[Dibs]

Well some of us don't. Apparently some here already know the future of EJ. Wouldn't it be great to have that amazing gift.

 

This amazing gift?

http://forums.twobillsdrive.com/topic/170235-dunning-kruger-effect/

[The Dean]

This amazing gift?

http://forums.twobil...-kruger-effect/

 

 

Precisely that.

 

Well done.

[BarleyNY]

Orton is definitely an upgrade to the backup QB spot - something I've ripped on the Bills' FO for not addressing prior to this move. He's not going to be starting anytime soon for two reasons:

1) The Bills need to find out what they've got in EJ. Regardless of opinions, estimated odds of success, whatever, they've got to play him and see if he shows something for the long term.

2). Orton just got here and wouldn't be ready anyway. He isn't the future here.

[Rockinon]

Can't believe how people over analyze this. We had a 2nd string QB that was stinking up the place so bad that he was beat out by Jeff Tuel. He is now gone. Then we bring in another scrub for a couple of days that obviously couldn't cut it. He is now gone. Now Orton gets a chance.

 

Preseason is just a wash. Always has been, but people are so dramatic. The sky is falling. EJ didn't do this or EJ didn't do that. Seriously, folks need to get a grip. Orton is nothing more than a hopeful improvement to the team. He is not going to come in and start. Not happening.....no way... notta. Orton may be a decent mentor and a reliable back up. To think that this 35yr old is going to come in and be the answer is really preposterous.

 

Game one has not even been played yet. Orton vs EJ? Seriously?

Edited August 30, 2014 by Rockinon

[26CornerBlitz]

Can't believe how people over analyze this. We had a 2nd string QB that was stinking up the place so bad that he was beat out by Jeff Tuel. He is now gone. Then we bring in another scrub for a couple of days that obviously couldn't cut it. He is now gone. Now Orton gets a chance.

 

Preseason is just a wash. Always has been, but people are so dramatic. The sky is falling. EJ didn't do this or EJ didn't do that. Seriously, folks need to get a grip. Orton is nothing more than a hopeful improvement to the team. He is not going to come in and start. Not happening.....no way... notta. Orton may be a decent mentor and a reliable back up. To think that this 35yr old is going to come in and be the answer is really preposterous.

 

Game one has not even been played yet. Orton vs EJ? Seriously?

 

Good post, but the one correction is that Orton is only 31 years old. Dead on other than that.

[Chandler#81]

 

 

That's the bottom line here. If the OL is solid, the running game should flourish and EJ is usually fine when he has time to throw. Not great yet, mind you, but fine. If the line is solid, we'll actually get to see if EJ develops as hoped. But make no mistake about it, the Bills running game should be the driver for their early success. If that falls apart, Orton is probably doomed as well.

 

Of course, if the OL plays well and the running game is good, it is still good to have Orton in case of injury.

 

HOWEVER.. If there's to be a chance at a sniff of the Holy Grail playoffs, we HAVE to win early and often in order to hopefully go 2-4 in the last 6 games. Otherwise, pure Doom is on the horizon with yet another full blown coaching staff release and possible -but my fingers are crossed against this- GM. Ergo, a 'Learning about EJ' curve could very well have 5 years of continued misery in WNY.

 

BTW, Welcome Back, Deano!

[Kelly the Dog]

Can't believe how people over analyze this. We had a 2nd string QB that was stinking up the place so bad that he was beat out by Jeff Tuel. He is now gone. Then we bring in another scrub for a couple of days that obviously couldn't cut it. He is now gone. Now Orton gets a chance.

 

Preseason is just a wash. Always has been, but people are so dramatic. The sky is falling. EJ didn't do this or EJ didn't do that. Seriously, folks need to get a grip. Orton is nothing more than a hopeful improvement to the team. He is not going to come in and start. Not happening.....no way... notta. Orton may be a decent mentor and a reliable back up. To think that this 35yr old is going to come in and be the answer is really preposterous.

 

Game one has not even been played yet. Orton vs EJ? Seriously?

Agree with everything, but IMO it's a huge upgrade and reason to rejoice. The news that they have been working on this for a couple months is also great news, if only because it means the brain trust wasn't as reckless and blind as they had appeared about a very important position on an NFL team, backup QB.

[Rockinon]

Good post, but the one correction is that Orton is only 31 years old. Dead on other than that.

Really? I thought I read somewhere that he was 35.

 

Agree with everything, but IMO it's a huge upgrade and reason to rejoice. The news that they have been working on this for a couple months is also great news, if only because it means the brain trust wasn't as reckless and blind as they had appeared about a very important position on an NFL team, backup QB.

I think the "brain trust" as you call it will have some more surprises for us. Wouldn't be surprised if we pick up a key cog after everyone drops down to the 53 man rosters. Going to be a lot of good talent lost. We just got rid of a very promising DLman and we are likely to lose a good WR when we drop down to 53. Other teams as well will be losing some good talent. Opportunities to improve are still there.

[HankBulloughMellencamp]

He wants to throw to guys who are obviously open.

 

I love this point. Orton is a real leader, and will be our starter when EJ falters.

 

EJ can not handle overload pressure, and does not throw with anticipation. He needs to see the guy open before he pulls the trigger. Works for deep balls, but he is poor at slants and anything timed over the middle.

Edited August 30, 2014 by HankBulloughMellencamp

[HankBulloughMellencamp]

Agree with everything, but IMO it's a huge upgrade and reason to rejoice. The news that they have been working on this for a couple months is also great news, if only because it means the brain trust wasn't as reckless and blind as they had appeared about a very important position on an NFL team, backup QB.

 

100% agreed. Orton was waiting to see where his best potential landing spot could be. And as it turned out, St Louis and Buffalo were the two neediest teams in the QB market.

 

I don't suggest he will stonewall EJ and remind us of Flutie/Johnson. But I don't think Orton will offer anywhere near the coddling and player/coach mentoring that a guy like Jordan Palmer would have. Orton is coming here because he has a chance to drive the bus on a talented team, something he has a good bit of experience doing.

[26CornerBlitz]

I love this point. Orton is a real leader, and will be our starter when EJ falters.

 

EJ can not handle overload pressure, and does not throw with anticipation. He needs to see the guy open before he pulls the trigger. Works for deep balls, but he is poor at slants and anything timed over the middle.

 

There are several examples from this preaseason where he has done exactly what you claim he doesn't do. You are factually incorrect.

[transient]

That's the bottom line here. If the OL is solid, the running game should flourish and EJ is usually fine when he has time to throw. Not great yet, mind you, but fine. If the line is solid, we'll actually get to see if EJ develops as hoped. But make no mistake about it, the Bills running game should be the driver for their early success. If that falls apart, Orton is probably doomed as well.

 

Of course, if the OL plays well and the running game is good, it is still good to have Orton in case of injury.

This, plus a defense that should dominate (assuming that pass coverage fares better than preseason would indicate).

 

I agree, the FO's goal was to put a team around EJ that would give him the best chance to develop into the QB they envision he can be. Even among his most ardent supporters, I don't think anyone is calling him a finished product... only among his detractors.

[HankBulloughMellencamp]

There are several examples from this preaseason where he has done exactly what you claim he doesn't do. You are factually incorrect.

 

We can agree to disagree now, before you post a clip of a specific pre-season play where he did this.

 

My point is that throwing the ball with anticipation is not a strength of his. And conversely, EJ rarely fires the ball into tight spaces. In fact he throws a lot of high-lofted floaters (that often trail OB) ... to me, this indicates indecision and an attempt to be "too perfect".

 

#3 is not durable, and although he looks the part, he offers no real threat as a scrambler. In fact, he missed time on three separate occasions, once because he didn't protect himself, and twice because his knee swelled up after the game.

 

I'll give you this, he is good at being delusionally positive.

 

Ain't nobody got time for any more enigmas!

 

 

Interesting article on Orton, in case you have not seen it yet...

 

http://www.nationalf...e-hot-seat.html

Edited August 30, 2014 by HankBulloughMellencamp

[Kelly the Dog]

 

 

We can agree to disagree now, before you post a clip of a specific pre-season play where he did this.

 

My point is that throwing the ball with anticipation is not a strength of his. And conversely, EJ rarely fires the ball into tight spaces. In fact he throws a lot of high-lofted floaters (that often trail OB) ... to me, this indicates indecision and an attempt to be "too perfect".

 

#3 is not durable, and although he looks the part, he offers no real threat as a scrambler. In fact, he missed time on three separate occasions, once because he didn't protect himself, and twice because his knee swelled up after the game.

 

I'll give you this, he is good at being delusionally positive.

 

Ain't nobody got time for any more enigmas!

While I totally agree he needs to be more accurate, I don't agree with your above assessment. There are some quarterbacks that throw most every throw with authority, except when it is necessary to, say, lob it over a defender on a specific play. There are great QBs and lousy QBs who play this way. Brady is usually that way. There are other QBs who throw each pass differently depending on the route and how much room they have. They lob balls so it's easier to catch if guys are wide open. They gun balls when they have to. There are also great and terrible QBs with this model. Manning is one of these types. I don't think there is one way or another that is better. EJ is one of these types, too. So it looks like he doesn't have a good arm at times or he floats passes that he shouldn't. But usually he floats it on purpose.

 

That doesn't mean he doesn't need to improve his accuracy. He surely does.

[HankBulloughMellencamp]

While I totally agree he needs to be more accurate, I don't agree with your above assessment. There are some quarterbacks that throw most every throw with authority, except when it is necessary to, say, lob it over a defender on a specific play. There are great QBs and lousy QBs who play this way. Brady is usually that way. There are other QBs who throw each pass differently depending on the route and how much room they have. They lob balls so it's easier to catch if guys are wide open. They gun balls when they have to. There are also great and terrible QBs with this model. Manning is one of these types. I don't think there is one way or another that is better. EJ is one of these types, too. So it looks like he doesn't have a good arm at times or he floats passes that he shouldn't. But usually he floats it on purpose.

 

That doesn't mean he doesn't need to improve his accuracy. He surely does.

 

They say Bridgewater "throws people open" as a strength. I can't even say what EJ's strengths are.

 

We could talk about throwing ability and what makes a good QB all day. And I was certainly hoping we had one when we picked EJ. His arm is not the issue... he is capable of throwing good passes and firing it when needed. He is timid, indecisive, and can't make a defense pay when they bring pressure. He plays like he is afraid to make a mistake.

 

EJ is just underwhelming in too many senses for me to be optimistic at this point.

Edited August 30, 2014 by HankBulloughMellencamp

[Kelly the Dog]

 

 

They say Bridgewater "throws people open" as a strength. I can't even say what EJ's strengths are.

 

We could talk about throwing ability and what makes a good QB all day. And I was certainly hoping we had one when we picked EJ. His arm is not the issue... he is capable of throwing good passes and firing it when needed. He is timid, indecisive, and can't make a defense pay when they bring pressure. He plays like he is afraid to make a mistake.

 

EJ is just underwhelming in too many senses for me to be optimistic at this point.

You may be right. Some players never get it. I call all those things inexperience and thinking too much, which may go away when he gets comfortable and confident by playing a season or two. I don't agree that he cannot make defenses pay when they bring pressure.

[HankBulloughMellencamp]

 

I don't agree that he cannot make defenses pay when they bring pressure.

 

My best examples of this are last year at NYJ, at Pitt, and at Tampa. They brought people, and EJ had no answers all game long. So therefore, we were never going to be able to run it on those days.

 

If DBs sniff blood in the water with a young QB, they cheat up and make it worse until you can make them pay. In his rookie year, EJ failed those tests miserably.

[C.Biscuit97]

 

 

My best examples of this are last year at NYJ, at Pitt, and at Tampa. They brought people, and EJ had no answers all game long. So therefore, we were never going to be able to run it on those days.

 

If DBs sniff blood in the water with a young QB, they cheat up and make it worse until you can make them pay. In his rookie year, EJ failed those tests miserably.

 

But having a good game against Rex in the 2nd game or nearly throwing for 300 yards in a comeback against the #2 defense don't count?

[HankBulloughMellencamp]

 

 

But having a good game against Rex in the 2nd game or nearly throwing for 300 yards in a comeback against the #2 defense don't count?

 

Sure they do, & so does our 6-10 record. His stats probably look OK in those games. The Ravens turned it over a bunch, as I recall, and he had a good game here vs. Sexy Rexie. But he was abominable in those other games I mentioned. And his fragility hindered his development and the team.

 

He's on par with JP Losman in my mind... not a guy that can get you anywhere but where we have been.

[machine gun kelly]

 

 

Thanks for that. I sometimes feel like an awful lot of posters have me on ignore.

 

Upon seeing my last post though, I thought the stats were a bit misrepresentative in that I showed KO's poor first 10 start stats....and his career start stats.....but neglected to show how good a QB he may have developed into.....i.e. his last 10 starts stats.

 

 

KO last 10 starts:

QBR: 72.9

Comp%: 58.8%

YPA: 6.8

TD%: 3.3

INT%: 4.1%

 

And repeated for the easy comparison...

 

EJ last season(10 starts):

QBR: 77.7

Comp%: 58.8

YPA: 6.4

TD%: 3.6%

INT%: 2.9%

 

I honestly thought the experienced Orton stats would show him pulling away a bit. Instead we see his stats regress from his career average. In essence, KO played considerably worse in his last 10 starts than the rookie EJ.

 

I'm not clamoring to put KO in the opener. I do think with a month of prep he could get the offensive game plan down. EJ has eluded they won't open up the playbook and has felt in some ways handcuffed. Ok. Then we'll see what he can do in some winnable games. If he's truly made steps forward and we're 3-2 after game 5 he'll keep playing. Now if he's 0-4, how much do you want to bet KO is in game 5.

 

It's not fair to compare the last 10 games as that is as a back up QB, and little notice in many of them to get ready for the next opponent. It's also comparing apples to oranges with Kyle's first season with a bad team in Chicago. He also played on a bad team in Denver and that was a mess.

 

I'm undecided at this point because patience is warranted with EJ until he shows he has improved in the regular season with a game plan, all of the starters, the defense with a game plan that I think will be strong.

 

Bottom line, we'll see, and at least we have a decent back up now. He was rated as a top 3 back up across the entire NFL.

[C.Biscuit97]

 

 

Sure they do, & so does our 6-10 record. His stats probably look OK in those games. The Ravens turned it over a bunch, as I recall, and he had a good game here vs. Sexy Rexie. But he was abominable in those other games I mentioned. And his fragility hindered his development and the team.

 

He's on par with JP Losman in my mind... not a guy that can get you anywhere but where we have been.

 

It's your opinion but Losman didn't play until his 2nd year and was way worse than Manuel.

 

I just hate the way people can dismiss a 23 year old like that. But more power to you.

[John from Riverside]

I agree, he starts

 

No he doesnt