The coaching staff

[The Underdog]

I don't think Marrone is a good head coach to be honest. He seems lost and he isn't a good X's and O's guy at all. To me he just comes off as a stubborn disciplinarian that can't match up X's and O's well on Sunday against other head coaches. I think its more than fair to say he should be on the hot seat.

[dave mcbride]

Yes, marginally better. It's nice that we are #1 in yards per drive. However, a defenses job is to keep the other team from scoring points. In 2013 we gave up an average of 24.2 points per game and had on an average of 31:59 per game. In 2012 it was 27.2 points per game in 30:33. To my way of thinking, that's marginally better. More fun to watch, but only marginally more effective.

 

I agree that our Offense was bad last year and contributed somewhat. The often mentioned time of possession. While it is true we were bad at that last year, the defense plays into that too by giving up long drives and long 3rd down conversions and not being able to stop the run etc.

 

I like what I've seen from the D in pre season so far. Hopefully it will be better this year.

 

Points allowed is a very deceptive statistic. So much depends on your own offense's problems (turnovers, lack of ability to move the ball -- which results in good drive starts for opposing teams, etc.). The Bills were 12th in points per drive in any case, which is good. The Bills D was seventh in time per drive, 5th in plays per drive, and 2nd in yards per drive.

 

The offense, however, was terrible: 8th in average drive start yet 31st in time per drive, 22nd in plays per drive, 28th in yards per drive, and 25th in points per drive.

 

The Bills defense was actually excellent last year. The run defense wasn't great, but it's a passing league overall and pass defense is more valuable. The Bills had that in spades.

 

There is a lot of misinformation floating around about the Bills' D's performance last year, and most of it seems to derive from the theory that the running game is of equal importance to the passing game. In the modern NFL, it isn't. I mean, just look at the Bills - they're ground and pound attack was singularly unproductive. They ran it more times up the middle and at a higher percentage than any other team in the NFL.

 

http://www.pro-footb...ms/buf/2013.htm

Edited August 18, 2014 by dave mcbride

[T master]

We should send Brandon packing with them , it was a total homer hire !!

 

When you have the likes of Head Coaching experience that there was with championshipS (plural) under there belts as Lovey, Wisenhunt, & Trestman & you hire a college coach because he brought a college program from sucking to .500 WHAT THE HELL WERE THEY THINKING ?

 

After this season i say all 3 of those coaches i just mentioned will have their respective teams in the hunt for the play offs but i really hate to say it i don't see the Bills in there unless they get a QB OR EJ hits his head & jars the IT button in the on position ...

[Kelly the Dog]

Marrone is playing guys on the bubble to see if they have the skills to keep on the roster or to use in games. He knows CaveManMike is going to play and start (or at worst be 2B); he doesn't know if TJ is going to make it so he plays him to find out. Same with Legursky.

 

The Hogan fascination is surprising to me, but, Hogan is only playing the slot with the ones. When Sammy went out, he didn't put Hogan out there he put Woods (who should be playing over Hogan anyway). The point is though, that Hogan is not really ahead of Woods and by the time the season rolls around, Woods will be getting more time than Hogan on the field, on the outside as well as likely in the slot.

 

I have my doubts, serious ones, about both Marrone and Hackett but preseason is about finding guys who have the talent to make the roster, and evaluating them, much, much more than putting all the starters together so you groom them to be ready for the regular season.

 

No one could have done a good job with what happened to Hackett last year. He and Marrone need the full regular season to show whether or not they deserve another year. That is far from being determined. But the use of players and the playcalling in preseason is not at all a way to determine it. Like, for example, in the Carolina game, with four plays from the 1-2 yard line, if it were regular season, they would have rolled EJ out on one or two of those. They are not going to do that in the preseason.

[Mango]

Give Hackett a break at least until he learns how to shave. Plus he has a stressful week with his driver's test on the horizon. Insider word is that Dareus wasn't racing at all. It was a cover story designed by Marrone to spare Hackett embarrassment. He was trying to parrallel park and he kept hitting Marcel's car.

 

Obviously you are being sarcastic, but there are posters here who ask Hackett to be cut slack as a rookie OC. I hate that. I preach patience with draft picks, and 20 year olds, give them time. But coordinators and HC's. Nope. If you aren't ready to do and manage your job properly early on, you are unqualified to do it. Coaches have a different standard than players, they have spend more time on sidelines, older, more mature. They aren't paid to learn on the job or trial by fire with a professional sports team, they are paid to produce, and minimize the trial by fire of the rest of the franchises investments. If they need to grow into the job, how can we expect our personnel to progress at a professional rate.

 

Not you, but I hear this a lot and needed to get that off my chest. I feel better now.

 

Marrone is playing guys on the bubble to see if they have the skills to keep on the roster or to use in games. He knows CaveManMike is going to play and start (or at worst be 2B); he doesn't know if TJ is going to make it so he plays him to find out. Same with Legursky.

 

The Hogan fascination is surprising to me, but, Hogan is only playing the slot with the ones. When Sammy went out, he didn't put Hogan out there he put Woods (who should be playing over Hogan anyway). The point is though, that Hogan is not really ahead of Woods and by the time the season rolls around, Woods will be getting more time than Hogan on the field, on the outside as well as likely in the slot.

 

I have my doubts, serious ones, about both Marrone and Hackett but preseason is about finding guys who have the talent to make the roster, and evaluating them, much, much more than putting all the starters together so you groom them to be ready for the regular season.

 

No one could have done a good job with what happened to Hackett last year. He and Marrone need the full regular season to show whether or not they deserve another year. That is far from being determined. But the use of players and the playcalling in preseason is not at all a way to determine it. Like, for example, in the Carolina game, with four plays from the 1-2 yard line, if it were regular season, they would have rolled EJ out on one or two of those. They are not going to do that in the preseason.

 

I have a fear that he has pegged Woods as an outside guy and will purely, or mostly rotate out with Sammy and Williams. I believe Marrone eluded to something of that effect in a PS presser. Not Woods in particular, but that they were separating the receivers into outside guys and slot/inside guys. Simply put anyways.

[Lurker]

Thanks. This is a very useful thread for winnowing the chaff from the wheat.

 

Too bad I'm at my 16-page limit, though, and have to purge a name for each one I add...

[You herd it hear last]

Package up CJ Spiller and Mario Williams and trade for Mike McCarthy?

[Kelly the Dog]

Obviously you are being sarcastic, but there are posters here who ask Hackett to be cut slack as a rookie OC. I hate that. I preach patience with draft picks, and 20 year olds, give them time. But coordinators and HC's. Nope. If you aren't ready to do and manage your job properly early on, you are unqualified to do it. Coaches have a different standard than players, they have spend more time on sidelines, older, more mature. They aren't paid to learn on the job or trial by fire with a professional sports team, they are paid to produce, and minimize the trial by fire of the rest of the franchises investments. If they need to grow into the job, how can we expect our personnel to progress at a professional rate.

 

Not you, but I hear this a lot and needed to get that off my chest. I feel better now.

IMO there is not a single first time coordinator that could have done well with what transpired. He was in his first year, he was with a first year head coach, with no QB coach, his starting QB was hurt twice and out for the year before the year started, his raw rookie back-up QB was hurt in training camp and couldnt prepare for the season, then was hurt twice more and missed 6 plus games. His star RB was hurt in game three (knee) and game four (high ankle), and never healthy the rest of the year. His other RB was also hurt, his top WR played hurt the entire season, his top speedster was hurt and missed half the season, and three linemen were significantly hurt. His backup QBs were a journeyman who had to learn the offense and a terrible UDRFA.

 

NO ONE could have done well with all of that. You can say "excuses, excuses, excuses" but those are facts. I very much doubt the top OCs in the league could have done well under those circumstances.

[dave mcbride]

IMO there is not a single first time coordinator that could have done well with what transpired. He was in his first year, he was with a first year head coach, with no QB coach, his starting QB was hurt twice and out for the year before the year started, his raw rookie back-up QB was hurt in training camp and couldnt prepare for the season, then was hurt twice more and missed 6 plus games. His star RB was hurt in game three (knee) and game four (high ankle), and never healthy the rest of the year. His other RB was also hurt, his top WR played hurt the entire season, his top speedster was hurt and missed half the season, and three linemen were significantly hurt. His backup QBs were a journeyman who had to learn the offense and a terrible UDRFA.

 

NO ONE could have done well with all of that. You can say "excuses, excuses, excuses" but those are facts. I very much doubt the top OCs in the league could have done well under those circumstances.

 

My issue with Hackett is that he appears to believe that running the ball a ton -- and in particular, running the ball up the middle -- is an effective approach in today's NFL. It isn't.

 

PS - It'll be even less defendable this season given the new rules that favor the passing game. Given the cast of receivers now on the squad, I'm guessing/hoping Hackett will see the light.

Edited August 18, 2014 by dave mcbride

[metzelaars_lives]

Does anyone else feel like Marrone's new act like a d*ck in press conferences shtick feels a little contrived?

[thebandit27]

We should send Brandon packing with them , it was a total homer hire !!

 

When you have the likes of Head Coaching experience that there was with championshipS (plural) under there belts as Lovey, Wisenhunt, & Trestman & you hire a college coach because he brought a college program from sucking to .500 WHAT THE HELL WERE THEY THINKING ?

 

After this season i say all 3 of those coaches i just mentioned will have their respective teams in the hunt for the play offs but i really hate to say it i don't see the Bills in there unless they get a QB OR EJ hits his head & jars the IT button in the on position ...

 

Marrone was a Nix/Whaley hire, not Brandon. Brandon participated in interviews, provided opinions, etc., but make no mistake, if Nix & Whaley wanted someone other than Marrone, they'd have gotten him (provided he was willing to coach here).

[Mango]

IMO there is not a single first time coordinator that could have done well with what transpired. He was in his first year, he was with a first year head coach, with no QB coach, his starting QB was hurt twice and out for the year before the year started, his raw rookie back-up QB was hurt in training camp and couldnt prepare for the season, then was hurt twice more and missed 6 plus games. His star RB was hurt in game three (knee) and game four (high ankle), and never healthy the rest of the year. His other RB was also hurt, his top WR played hurt the entire season, his top speedster was hurt and missed half the season, and three linemen were significantly hurt. His backup QBs were a journeyman who had to learn the offense and a terrible UDRFA.

 

NO ONE could have done well with all of that. You can say "excuses, excuses, excuses" but those are facts. I very much doubt the top OCs in the league could have done well under those circumstances.

 

I totally agree with this. Last year was rough for anybody to handle. I am not necessarily basing this off of Hackett alone, or last years offensive results. The point is, first year OC is not an excuse for poor performance, we didn't draft him, we hired him. I think you are narrowing the scope of what I am trying to say. There were a million things working against Hackett last year, I totally agree, all I am saying is that being a rookie OC is not and should not be one of those things at this level of play. His management of 3 QBs was more than applaudable. It doesn't mean that are deficiencies shouldn't be considered without the fact that he is a first time OC. His ability to use the offensive stregths is his biggest weakness. He can't get Spiller in space, he constantly runs behind the worst positions on the OL, he does a poor job of taking pressure of the OL. On the all 22 on multiple occasions on 3rd and short we run 4 go routes with no outlet or check down. A lot of the receiving routes on pass plays lack any change in depth or direction. Christ, I cannot count the times we just run 3 out/dig routes in the same directions at the same yard line, with a rb ready for a check down. There are more ways to use our speed than go routes, and we seem to never utilize them. It isn't the play calling it is the play design. These when brought up are sometimes met with the argument, he is a first time OC Many if not most That I have a problem with. Some of these problems may or may not be on EJ, none of us really know, but when the all 22 comes up or you rewatch the game and rewind, play design is terrible.

 

Your points Kelly are spot on, and I agree with you

[Captain Hindsight]

IMO there is not a single first time coordinator that could have done well with what transpired. He was in his first year, he was with a first year head coach, with no QB coach, his starting QB was hurt twice and out for the year before the year started, his raw rookie back-up QB was hurt in training camp and couldnt prepare for the season, then was hurt twice more and missed 6 plus games. His star RB was hurt in game three (knee) and game four (high ankle), and never healthy the rest of the year. His other RB was also hurt, his top WR played hurt the entire season, his top speedster was hurt and missed half the season, and three linemen were significantly hurt. His backup QBs were a journeyman who had to learn the offense and a terrible UDRFA.

 

NO ONE could have done well with all of that. You can say "excuses, excuses, excuses" but those are facts. I very much doubt the top OCs in the league could have done well under those circumstances.

Look no further than last year with the Packers. Rodgers goes down and this playoff team goes from Rodgers to Seneca Wallace to Scott Tolzien in 6 days. They proceed to finish 8-7-1 after starting 5-2. That is with a super bowl winning coach.

[Kelly the Dog]

I totally agree with this. Last year was rough for anybody to handle. I am not necessarily basing this off of Hackett alone, or last years offensive results. The point is, first year OC is not an excuse for poor performance, we didn't draft him, we hired him. I think you are narrowing the scope of what I am trying to say. There were a million things working against Hackett last year, I totally agree, all I am saying is that being a rookie OC is not and should not be one of those things at this level of play. His management of 3 QBs was more than applaudable. It doesn't mean that are deficiencies shouldn't be considered without the fact that he is a first time OC. His ability to use the offensive stregths is his biggest weakness. He can't get Spiller in space, he constantly runs behind the worst positions on the OL, he does a poor job of taking pressure of the OL. On the all 22 on multiple occasions on 3rd and short we run 4 go routes with no outlet or check down. A lot of the receiving routes on pass plays lack any change in depth or direction. Christ, I cannot count the times we just run 3 out/dig routes in the same directions at the same yard line, with a rb ready for a check down. There are more ways to use our speed than go routes, and we seem to never utilize them. It isn't the play calling it is the play design. These when brought up are sometimes met with the argument, he is a first time OC Many if not most That I have a problem with. Some of these problems may or may not be on EJ, none of us really know, but when the all 22 comes up or you rewatch the game and rewind, play design is terrible.

 

Your points Kelly are spot on, and I agree with you

I agree with most all of what you said, too. The jury is still out. What I don't know is how much all of that stuff that happened dramatically changed his game plans, game calls, etc. How much Spiller being unable to plant and explode hurt the running calls up the middle. There were a lot of questionable calls last year to be sure. I am not in any way sold on Hackett. He very well may be way over his head. He wasn't really able to run any semblance of what he wanted to or envisioned to run. In some respects, he did rather well.

 

My point is only that I don't think we have much an idea of what he really wanted to do, or could have done, or will do this year, because last year was such a clusterfukk.

 

I'm not betting on him this year, but I'm not betting against him. I just don't know. He has a lot of weapons. He has to find a way to call the right shots.

 

A good to great coordinator needs at least three major things all working together to succeed. He needs good players, a good system, and to call the right plays a good percentage of the time and put players in a position to make plays.

 

Hackett has the first one (unless you think that EJ totally sucks). This year he needs to prove his offense is both a good scheme and strategy, AND that he has a knack of calling mostly the right plays.*

 

*I think most fans expect way, way too much from coordinators as a whole to make the right call 90% of the time, especially in important situations. They give them little credit when they make a ballsy call when it works, and then assign huge blame when the same kind of call doesn't work. Granted, your calls have to work a solid percentage of the time. And the good ones have a knack for making the right calls at the right times on both sides of the ball. But we as fans expect the right or perfect call way too often IMO.

[dave mcbride]

I agree with most all of what you said, too. The jury is still out. What I don't know is how much all of that stuff that happened dramatically changed his game plans, game calls, etc. How much Spiller being unable to plant and explode hurt the running calls up the middle. There were a lot of questionable calls last year to be sure. I am not in any way sold on Hackett. He very well may be way over his head. He wasn't really able to run any semblance of what he wanted to or envisioned to run. In some respects, he did rather well.

 

My point is only that I don't think we have much an idea of what he really wanted to do, or could have done, or will do this year, because last year was such a clusterfukk.

 

I'm not betting on him this year, but I'm not betting against him. I just don't know. He has a lot of weapons. He has to find a way to call the right shots.

 

A good to great coordinator needs at least three major things all working together to succeed. He needs good players, a good system, and to call the right plays a good percentage of the time and put players in a position to make plays.

 

Hackett has the first one (unless you think that EJ totally sucks). This year he needs to prove his offense is both a good scheme and strategy, AND that he has a knack of calling mostly the right plays.*

 

*I think most fans expect way, way too much from coordinators as a whole to make the right call 90% of the time, especially in important situations. They give them little credit when they make a ballsy call when it works, and then assign huge blame when the same kind of call doesn't work. Granted, your calls have to work a solid percentage of the time. And the good ones have a knack for making the right calls at the right times on both sides of the ball. But we as fans expect the right or perfect call way too often IMO.

 

Good point. Remember the planned Quinn Early pass against Denver in OT? It ended up getting Henning - a good coordinator - run out of town. I like the call then and now. If it had been properly executed, the Bills would have won the game on that play. It was there for the taking. But it failed, and Henning was treated as a fool forever after. Also, talk about a bad QB situation -- look at what he had to deal with.

[DC Greg]

Points allowed is a very deceptive statistic. So much depends on your own offense's problems (turnovers, lack of ability to move the ball -- which results in good drive starts for opposing teams, etc.). The Bills were 12th in points per drive in any case, which is good. The Bills D was seventh in time per drive, 5th in plays per drive, and 2nd in yards per drive.

 

The offense, however, was terrible: 8th in average drive start yet 31st in time per drive, 22nd in plays per drive, 28th in yards per drive, and 25th in points per drive.

 

The Bills defense was actually excellent last year. The run defense wasn't great, but it's a passing league overall and pass defense is more valuable. The Bills had that in spades.

 

There is a lot of misinformation floating around about the Bills' D's performance last year, and most of it seems to derive from the theory that the running game is of equal importance to the passing game. In the modern NFL, it isn't. I mean, just look at the Bills - they're ground and pound attack was singularly unproductive. They ran it more times up the middle and at a higher percentage than any other team in the NFL.

 

http://www.pro-footb...ms/buf/2013.htm

 

It's really amazing how many fans couldn't see this. The stats to back it up are nice, but any real football person who watched every game could see it plain as day. Doesn't take expert analysis. The D would stuff the other team consistently. The offense failed to move the ball effectively, consistently. The offense could not capitalize on turnovers by the defense, especially if they were placed in a good scoring position. Our offense was horrible at finishing drives and scoring touchdowns in the red zone, period.

 

There are a lot of causations for this, not the lease of which is Nate Hackett. I too am starting to doubt this guy's competency more and more. It's only the preseason, but yeah... it's been bad on O. Sensing a real inability to adjust on that side of the ball. Please dear God let them get it figured out. Nobody is rooting harder for these guys to learn and succeed more than us.

[Simon Says]

Another way of looking at it...perhaps Marrone already has a good idea of what Williams and Woods can do and he wants to be sure about the other WR's (Graham and Hogan) and OL (getting playing time for Legursky and "Cujo",since Hairston and Glenn are not 100%.On game days,might only dress 7 OL and they have to be versatile.

Seeing what we've got,maybe showcasing?

[Solomon Grundy]

I'm really starting to dislike Marrone. He's got a real problem with cutting off the nose to spite the face. Let me explain why I feel this way.

 

1. Doug's attachment to Hogan.

 

Anybody with eyes can see Woods is clearly superior to Hogan in every way. Maybe Hogan practices harder or is a better practice player than Robert is, but when it's game time "7-11" is a no-show and #10 puts on a show. Give Woody more time with the ones, Doug!

 

2A and 2B. Give EJ a fair chance to shine.

 

A. It was already bad enough that Sammy exited the game because of injury, now you want to pull our second best receiver in favor of camp fodder? The lack of use of Mike Williams in favor of TJ Graham only made matters worse for Manuel. TJ isn't making this team, if he does, I'll be surprised, so why give him so much time with the first string? Graham is garbage. Why can't Doug see that? Give EJ some good targets to throw to! Please!

 

B. The offensive line

 

How do we expect EJ to score if he has Doug freaking Legursky at LG? Legursky should be playing in the 4th quarter, not the first. He's trash.

 

We're trying to develop a young QB here. This offensive line experimentation crap has gone on for far too long. Yes, I realize Cordy is out and we can't really line up our top 5 just yet, but that still doesn't excuse benching Cyril in favor of DL.

 

Didn't Marrone see enough from #59 last year to know that he sucks? Richardson had a great week of practice and you reward him how? By starting Legursky?

 

It doesn't stop there either. I think Hairston should get some playing time with the ones at right tackle over Pears. Hairston is a natural right tackle, anyways, why play him on the left? We don't get any push on the right side in the running game and Pears is a big reason for that. He can't run block. We want to be a running team, right? Then get some road graders out on the field.

 

3. Scheme

 

Scrap the no-huddle. EJ isn't ready for that. He's already proven he can't handle too many responsibilities at one time, so help him out by taking away one of them. If we continue to struggle on offense, our defense will ultimately pay the price for it.

 

4. Play calling

 

Hackett sucks. I hate his play calling. He's obsessed with those ridiculous shot-gun sweeps. They don't work, moron, try something else! Everyone knows we're going to run the ball inside the ten yard-line, too. Do we ever throw the ball into the end-zone? The read-option? Really? That garbage was useless last season.

 

I'm losing faith in our head coach more and more every week. His evaluation of talent or lack thereof is a major concern. We won't improve if we head down the same path as last year and so far I don't see an improvement in coaching from last year. Time is running out. Get your act together!

 

1 and 2 couldn't have been written more eloquently! 3-scheme, I didn't see them using an uptempo style of offense. 4- Play calling, I have no problem with the play calling. My problem is the interior of our offensive line that's not allowing the shotgun sweeps to work because they're getting blown up my their opponents! Not impressed with with Urbik, Legursky or Wood for that matter.

[Manther]

I'm really starting to dislike Marrone. He's got a real problem with cutting off the nose to spite the face. Let me explain why I feel this way.

 

1. Doug's attachment to Hogan.

 

Anybody with eyes can see Woods is clearly superior to Hogan in every way. Maybe Hogan practices harder or is a better practice player than Robert is, but when it's game time "7-11" is a no-show and #10 puts on a show. Give Woody more time with the ones, Doug!

 

2A and 2B. Give EJ a fair chance to shine.

 

A. It was already bad enough that Sammy exited the game because of injury, now you want to pull our second best receiver in favor of camp fodder? The lack of use of Mike Williams in favor of TJ Graham only made matters worse for Manuel. TJ isn't making this team, if he does, I'll be surprised, so why give him so much time with the first string? Graham is garbage. Why can't Doug see that? Give EJ some good targets to throw to! Please!

 

B. The offensive line

 

How do we expect EJ to score if he has Doug freaking Legursky at LG? Legursky should be playing in the 4th quarter, not the first. He's trash.

 

We're trying to develop a young QB here. This offensive line experimentation crap has gone on for far too long. Yes, I realize Cordy is out and we can't really line up our top 5 just yet, but that still doesn't excuse benching Cyril in favor of DL.

 

Didn't Marrone see enough from #59 last year to know that he sucks? Richardson had a great week of practice and you reward him how? By starting Legursky?

 

It doesn't stop there either. I think Hairston should get some playing time with the ones at right tackle over Pears. Hairston is a natural right tackle, anyways, why play him on the left? We don't get any push on the right side in the running game and Pears is a big reason for that. He can't run block. We want to be a running team, right? Then get some road graders out on the field.

 

3. Scheme

 

Scrap the no-huddle. EJ isn't ready for that. He's already proven he can't handle too many responsibilities at one time, so help him out by taking away one of them. If we continue to struggle on offense, our defense will ultimately pay the price for it.

 

4. Play calling

 

Hackett sucks. I hate his play calling. He's obsessed with those ridiculous shot-gun sweeps. They don't work, moron, try something else! Everyone knows we're going to run the ball inside the ten yard-line, too. Do we ever throw the ball into the end-zone? The read-option? Really? That garbage was useless last season.

 

I'm losing faith in our head coach more and more every week. His evaluation of talent or lack thereof is a major concern. We won't improve if we head down the same path as last year and so far I don't see an improvement in coaching from last year. Time is running out. Get your act together!

 

I can't argue with any of that. He can't make adjustments during training camp...how we expect him to make adjustments during the season. Hackett is useless and in over his head.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

3. Scheme

 

Scrap the no-huddle. EJ isn't ready for that. He's already proven he can't handle too many responsibilities at one time, so help him out by taking away one of them. If we continue to struggle on offense, our defense will ultimately pay the price for it.

 

 

I am partially with you here. Instead off all no huddle all the time, I'd love to see it turned on and off. If you are in a rhythm, or catch the d in a mismatched package... No huddle like crazy, but move the tempo up and down so it's less predictable. Use it when you have momentum and throttle it back to keep dictating the pace.

 

If you are pounding them on the ground slow it down and run the clock.

 

To me this is the true value the ability to go no huddle can bring.