Hammered a Lot Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 Jock Tax is not going to happen in NY State. I brought this up with some politicians ( I will be taking with a state senator today) and everyone said it will not happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Cubed Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 If you are referring to this article.. http://www.buffalonews.com/columns/donn-esmonde/is-a-new-bills-stadium-another-dreaded-silver-bullet-20140621?two-bills-drive The man is 100% spot on. WNY can NOT support a new stadium. There is no 'Agenda' other than TRUTH. The Bills do NOT need a new stadium period. It is nothing but BS in my opinion to give the new owner an out when the lease expires IF he waits that long ( I still stand by what I have been told by a couple attorneys that the lease is BS and can be beat in court). So what are you going to do when a new stadium is built, piss and moan to prove your OPINION(I can use caps too)? Instead of repeating the same opinion, why don't you supply some financial analysis of why it isn't possible. Btw, not sure why you are bringing up the lease and your attorney friends... Do they do financial analysis too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hplarrm Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 Yes, Esmonde does have an agenda, but why is this a surprise because in fact most people do have an agenda (reason, cause, or whatever) for their work. I is either expected by most readers and tolerated as they make their own conclusion by considering multiple views and making a judgment of what balance to choose. The question is not whether Esmonde has an agenda (he does have one and his agenda is to write columns which spur debate so by taking him on you are likely helping the Esmonde agenda) but what do you think it is and do you agree/disagree with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 Jock Tax is not going to happen in NY State. I brought this up with some politicians ( I will be taking with a state senator today) and everyone said it will not happen. Well then there is this.... I wonder why not? There were LOTS of tax dollars used in the construction of the Yankees and Mets facilities. It seems so much more logical. If they are worried about it not holding up long term than go with like 10% over 10 years. You would still get $150M that way in all likelihood. The jock tax was just one example of one of the ways to pass the public portion along. I happen to believe that is the best way but apparently NY has other plans. They are much more in the loop than I on this deal so that may not be a bad thing at all. Yes, Esmonde does have an agenda, but why is this a surprise because in fact most people do have an agenda (reason, cause, or whatever) for their work. I is either expected by most readers and tolerated as they make their own conclusion by considering multiple views and making a judgment of what balance to choose. The question is not whether Esmonde has an agenda (he does have one and his agenda is to write columns which spur debate so by taking him on you are likely helping the Esmonde agenda) but what do you think it is and do you agree/disagree with it. I have no problem with an informed position on any topic. I may not agree and I may agree. My issue is that he doesn't understand the topic and it is clear from his column. He is not equipped to present his position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 Does he have an agenda ? "Be afraid. Be very afraid." Really ? http://www.buffalone...wo-bills-drive. Seems to anti Buffalo Bills under the guise of raising taxes, etc. Thoughts please. Stayin I am generally against using taxpayer money up front to build a new stadium, and I must agree that many taxpayer-funded projects have not worked. Others have - Baltimore's waterfront stands as one example. The key seems to be to offer people something unique that they can't get just anywhere in the region (waterfront dining experience, say; unique shops) rather than something they can get more conveniently to where they live (a downtown mall competing with suburban malls, say). On the other hand, some of his comments are provably ignorant - the bit about a stadium standing empty 255 days a year, for example. I know that because the new Rams stadium in St Louis, Edward Jones Dome, was purposely built as a multi-use facility not just football, and it is fairly well filled with various attractions from World Robotics Championships, Monster Truck, concerts etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jkgobills Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 Does he have an agenda ? "Be afraid. Be very afraid." Really ? http://www.buffalone...wo-bills-drive. Seems to anti Buffalo Bills under the guise of raising taxes, etc. Thoughts please. Stayin It doesn't seem to be an agenda, more of a recounting of large scale civic projects (completed, or considered and not undertaken) in the Buffalo area over the past several years. He is placing the possibility of a new stadium in the framework of how these other projects worked out. Kirby Jackson has done (yet again) a very nice job of illuminating how a new stadium could be funded through an array of hotel, jock taxes, etc. Thank you for your continued insightful comments. Given the ways of funding the stadium, should it be built? Can the regionalization of the franchise over the past 10-15 years entice enough people to pay up for a PSL? Rochester, Batavia, Buffalo, Syracuse, and Niagara Falls have all experienced economic decline for longer than the Bills playoff drought. As a fan who left the region in 1997, and who has been to games in Baltimore, NJ, Charlotte and Buffalo during that time, it would be difficult to imagine spending the money for a seat license in Buffalo. However, it would be a strong consideration in the other cities. I love going to games in Buffalo. The tailgating, the passionate fans, the "non corporate" atmosphere. BUT, I wouldn't pay for a seat license. Mainly because of the fact that what I love about going to games there is no longer in step with our society at large. Admittedly, watching drunks make fools of themselves, people urinating in bathroom sinks, fights outside the stadium and inside the stadium are all part of the experience of a game in Buffalo. While driving in from Rochester on game days, my Dad (Buffalo born and raised) used to tell me "don't tell your mother what you hear or see here today, or I won't be able to take you to another game). It was, and is my "normal" of what to expect from fans when I go to a game in Buffalo, even these decades later. Frankly it's a great departure from what has become an overly sanitized world. Makes for a great Sunday of Football. I have no complaints about the atmosphere, but it is one my wife (a Philadelphia fan) doesn't enjoy, and is not one that I would bring my daughters to. A new stadium, with new amenities may bring out some more of the "corporate types" that bring a more "civilized" game day experience. I don't imagine that this would significantly change the culture of game days. For that reason, I wouldn't invest in a PSL, even if I lived in town. Watching Sabres fans at hockey games here in Raleigh, NC assures me that you can take the fan out of Buffalo, but you can't take the behavior they consider "normal" away from them. Heavy drinking and rowdy behavior is their normal. It's why they have to have an elevated police presence at the arena here every time the Sabres are in town. I have explained to people here in Raleigh since the Sabres/ Hurricanes playoff series in 2006, that what they see as depraved, drunken, obnoxious behavior from Sabres fans is in fact normal behavior at sporting events in Buffalo. Their reaction is shock, and then ultimately the community of Hurricanes fans choose to avoid the Sabres games here in town, so as not to deal with the obnoxious behavior. If Buffalo builds a new stadium, that would be great! I would enjoy it for the few games I am able to get up there for. If not, no problem I will keep going to the Ralph. Neither scenario makes me think the fan atmosphere will change significantly enough to bring the whole family. Neither scenario would make me pay up for a PSL. Either one will still be a great time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4BillsintheBurgh Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 Pittsburgh had a stadium that still had the original principle owed on it after 30 years. Voters voted against any taxpayer funded solution. Heintz field was still built. At least the state made the team increase the tax base by building up the area businesses as a way to get something back for the taxpayers. I feel articles like this one contribute to the downfall of newpapers/reporters because of a lack of content. The guy has listened to some people and then gives his opinion. How about an example where a community was hurt and why along with an example of where it worked and why. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurker Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 (edited) Sometimes, I think the Buffalo News does not want the Bills to stay in Buffalo. Nothing so insidious. They just want to sell newspapers and drive ad revenue... Hey, do any of you theater patrons smell smoke? It sure smells like smoke to me. And is that an open flame I see behind the curtain? Does anybody else see that? Hey, I think maybe..... Edited June 22, 2014 by Lurker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TXBILLSFAN Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 I'll keep making this point -- the new owner should drive the process regarding a new stadium -- not necessarily as part of the sale process. I don't want the NFL to require a stadium deal as part of the new ownership group. I personally would love to have a new stadium in downtown Buffalo with planned development to go around it, but the new owner should get to decide what he wants, at what cost and where. But I don't like this "shotgun wedding" that we fans are falling into --- if Pegula buys team, let him work with local, state and NFL folks to come up with a solution that fits his vision for the team. Same for Golisano, Trump or any other owner that wants to keep the team in WNY. I think we all know at some point there will need to be a new stadium, but, let's not force the issue as part of ownership transition. My fear is that the stadium decision will be sub-optimal or the state/local governments and the new owner himself will negotiate from a weak position with the NFL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buftex Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 (edited) I don't like Esmonde, because he was always hitting on my old girlfriend back in the 1980s! Jerk! Edited June 22, 2014 by Buftex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luxy312 Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 What about my post do you take issue with specifically? My master's degree in Sports Management makes me 100 times more qualified to speak on the topic than Donn Esmonde and the people at the Bills know it 200 times better than I do. Don't get all crazy and start posting facts Kirby. People love conspiracy theories and media hype over actual facts. At the end of the day, there's no chance that they spend hundreds of millions of dollars without doing significant econometric studies and feasibility analysis. The fact that those studies and analysis are not shared with the public is irrelevant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HopefulFuture Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 If you are referring to this article.. http://www.buffalone...two-bills-drive The man is 100% spot on. WNY can NOT support a new stadium. There is no 'Agenda' other than TRUTH. The Bills do NOT need a new stadium period. It is nothing but BS in my opinion to give the new owner an out when the lease expires IF he waits that long ( I still stand by what I have been told by a couple attorneys that the lease is BS and can be beat in court). Thanks for the pseudo intellect response. Facts and reality says the Bills do not need a new stadium, and they also support the FACT WNY really can't afford one. But hey, fantasy land is a much better place than reality. I agree, WNY cannot bare the burden of financing a new stadium. Thank goodness we won't have to since the state spreads those costs out to the entire state, not just the WNY region. Jeez, I wonder what you would say if downstate got a sizable amount of the NYS taxes for projects, sports or infrastructure, oh, wait a minute, downstate does get those funds a majority of the time..................See what I did there............. A new stadium, contrary to what you would have us believe, is NOT IN POINT OF FACT, owned by the sports franchise owner, it's owned by the tax payers of which ever county it is in or an assembled authority of local and state government. I don't believe your attorney's, I believe the ones that work for my firm however. A new retractable roof stadium in WNY would not be a large draw for big convention or other events that will make everything ok, that much I do agree with. Those days are long gone with the new age of the internet, there is just no reason to have those types of events any more. I will say the Super Bowl would eventually end up at a facility such as this however, and that is a big, big financial draw short term for the area. You build 4 or 5 of the nicest hotels in Niagara Falls and they will fill for that type of event, even if the stadium is located say, in West Seneca. In short, a situation such as this has great potential to further equity investment in the region. In the final analysis, it's a risk at every turn, and no, the Bills do not need a new stadium, but the reasons you try to emphasize, along with the likes of Esmonde, are poor at best. There is a great deal that CAN happen with a project such as this in this region, area, because we do have some unique attributes locally that can thrive off of the potential. All it takes is leadership, and I see that here now on the private side with the arrival of Pegula. Not to say he will own the Bills, but prior to his arrival in the area, equity investment was near non-existent here. That has changed, and that is fact, you see that fact everyday you look at the Harbor Center. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrags Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 He lost me early in the argument when he used the term "re-up" I can't stand this. As a professional how can you not come up with a better way of saying this? Anyone that uses the term "re-up" deserves to lose their intelligence card. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RussellDopeland Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 Let's be honest- The Buffalo News is a wretched piece of crap! There isn't a sliver or semblance of journalistic competency on the part of any of the writers/columnists that are employed by that ragtag operation. Esmonde's been terrible for years- yet is still employed and a given a forum for his empty-headed musings. Oh for the days of Jim Kelley and Larry Felser- today you're force-fed the contemptible diatribes of Tim Graham and Jerry Sullivan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLynchTrain Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 (edited) The problem the article fails to mention is that the NFL will demand a stadium. Yes, yes, we all understand ad naseum that it is distasteful for some of the richest billionaires to demand a handout from the taxed to the extreme regular joes, but that's just the way it works in the real world. If Buffalo stands up and tells the new owner and the NFL they won't build a new stadium, the new owner and the NFL will have a perfect excuse as to why they're leaving the 73rd largest city in America for something better. So while we may not need a new stadium, the NFL will demand a new stadium, and they know they have the leverage. It's just the way it is. Edited June 22, 2014 by TheLynchTrain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 The problem the article fails to mention is that the NFL will demand a stadium. Yes, yes, we all understand ad naseum that it is distasteful for some of the richest billionaires to demand a handout from the taxed to the extreme regular joes, but that's just the way it works in the real world. If Buffalo stands up and tells the new owner and the NFL they won't build a new stadium, the new owner and the NFL will have a perfect excuse as to why they're leaving the 73rd largest city in America for something better. So while we may not need a new stadium, the NFL will demand a new stadium, and they know they have the leverage. It's just the way it is. I think that you are probably right but don't think for a second that is not what a new owner wants as well (especially if it as not all at his cost). The other owners as well want the Bills to be contributing a larger piece of the pie. It is definitely coming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DOGNESS Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 (edited) The city is finally moving in the right direction. A downtown stadium would be yet another positive move. Small minded morons like Esmonde would be pumping all our tax dollars into reviving the local steel industry if they had their way. He needs to be ignored, plain and simple. Let's be honest- The Buffalo News is a wretched piece of crap! There isn't a sliver or semblance of journalistic competency on the part of any of the writers/columnists that are employed by that ragtag operation. Esmonde's been terrible for years- yet is still employed and a given a forum for his empty-headed musings. Oh for the days of Jim Kelley and Larry Felser- today you're force-fed the contemptible diatribes of Tim Graham and Jerry Sullivan. Cant say I was a fan of Felser. An overblown windbag in his own right whose inane ramblings became an embarrassment. Wasnt half as smart as he thought he was. Edited June 22, 2014 by DOGNESS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malazan Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 I've spoken with Obama who was a lawyer and is currently President of the United States. He says it is not feasible. The Buffalo Bills will be moved to Washington and renamed to the Washington Injins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwight in philly Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 i normally think esmonde has an axe to grind with sports in general.. (he originally was a NEWS sports guy) but tend to agree with him.. just my opinion, i like the ralph, i like outside, i like the elements, its who we are.. i could care less about "hosting" a super bowl... not going to happen anyway.. retro-fit the ralph.. nothing to do with tax dollars, just a reality.. the new stadium will not be a pancea for development.. again.. just my opinion.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
purple haze Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 i normally think esmonde has an axe to grind with sports in general.. (he originally was a NEWS sports guy) but tend to agree with him.. just my opinion, i like the ralph, i like outside, i like the elements, its who we are.. i could care less about "hosting" a super bowl... not going to happen anyway.. retro-fit the ralph.. nothing to do with tax dollars, just a reality.. the new stadium will not be a pancea for development.. again.. just my opinion.. Where do you think they would play during a retro-fit? That might, ultimately, be a viable option, but I think a temproray location would be a serious issue. There is no stadium locally (southern ontario, wny, cny) that is close to NFL caliber. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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