Bad Vibes About A Certain Player.....

[dave mcbride]

I always hope for a CB in the first round, just to watch Bill from NYC's head explode.

We should get Bill and Marvin Lewis in a room together. http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/05/06/marvin-lewis-says-certain-rare-ability-needed-to-play-cornerback/

[thewildrabbit]

The bolder part was sarcasm. Regardless of when they were drafted, they built their scheme around them. The same can be said for Marshawn. It doesn't matter what they had to give up to get him they built their scheme around him as well.

 

There is no right way or wrong way to build a football team if you have a QB. I can give you examples of teams that won with a variety of strengths (front to back, back to front, outside in and inside out). If you draft the best players available and plug your holes in FA than you will win. The problem with the Bills is that they were pretty devoid of talent when Nix got here. That has since changed regardless of what the most negative people on here want to believe.

 

The questions about QB remain which unfortunately is all that matters. If EJ doesn't develop soon you are going to risk getting to a point that whenever you do eventually find your QB it will come at a point where the rest of the talent on the roster isn't strong. It is a vicious cycle. Personally, I do not believe that getting a RT or an elite playmaker solves the flaws in EJs game. He is inaccurate, has slow eyes, made poor pre snap reads (and in turn poor audibles last year). They had to scale back the playbook in week 14 and he suffered 3 injuries. You can help some of those things in the draft (catching poorly thrown balls, giving him a little more time) but you cannot solve those problems. If teams don't think that you can make plays over the top than the safeties are going to play closer to the LOS and disrupt your running game and your short passing game. He needs to develop for this team to have any chance.

 

The resources on the OL are beyond the resources that they have used on playmakers. If we are specifically talking about the Bills resources they have drafted a 1st rounder (Wood), 2nd rounder (Glenn) & 4th rounder (Hairston) that would currently start along side a free agent that was drafted in the 3rd (Urbik) and the 1st (Williams). Of those players Wood is okay but had a bad year, Urbik is okay and had an average year, Hairston is talented but has injury questions, Williams is a wild card that I am not expecting much from and Glenn is a monster. They have drafted plenty of OL in the last decade that just weren't any good (Asper, Calloway, Mertz, Bell, etc...). The Bills haven't neglected the line they made mistakes in the guys that they picked. In addition, they spent large on Dockery and Walker who were also bad in FA.

 

Back to the original point there is not a right or wrong way to build a team. The best teams get the best talent but they do not focus on a particular position group. They focus on getting the players that will make the biggest impact and plugging their holes in FA.

There is a right way to properly build a winning NFL team, and its starts in the trenches, both sides. If you don't have quality players on the lines, then everything else obtained is wasted IMO.

 

(Asper 6th, Calloway 7th, Mertz ? , Bell 7th, etc...)Is a funny statement considering where all those players were drafted, as we both know that almost any player drafted after the 2nd round by this team the last decade was a wasted pick. You forgot to add Ed Wang 4th, Zerbie Sanders 5th.

 

EJ wasn't regarded as a starter right out of college, and the Bills clearly weren't intending to start him at QB since they acquired Kevin Kolb. That said, injuries to the starter (Kolb) forced the team into starting a QB that wasn't ready. In doing that they needed to simplify the playbook for all those rookie QB's. EJ, as well as the other two QB's encountered difficulties during the season for the most part because they weren't protected well enough. 108 hits, 48 sacks is unacceptable.

 

That, along with the inability to control the line of scrimmage, as the Bills ranked near last in every category of offensive efficiency. Which is significant considering how many times they ran the ball, and how many yards gained. The Bills manged to run the ball more then any other team in the NFL, and yet were unable to win many games because they couldn't control the clock or line of scrimmage very well.

 

Last season the Bills fielded an O line with three of the five that often graded in the red against many teams, and were bad against their biggest rival the Patriots. This fact is also significant because it shows the poor play of those three. Now, you yourself have stated in the past that the Bills could use a new starting OT, OG. So I'm not coming out of left field here.

 

 

The resources the Bills expended early in the drafts have been very fruitful in #1 on Eric Wood, #2 on Andy Levitre, #2 on Cordy Glenn. The resources the expended later in the draft on the line have been wasted, as none of those players became decent starters.

 

EJ, nor any of those young QB's will never develop properly if they lack the proper protection to make plays, and gain confidence. Its as simple as that.

[Kirby Jackson]

There is a right way to properly build a winning NFL team, and its starts in the trenches, both sides. If you don't have quality players on the lines, then everything else obtained is wasted IMO.

 

(Asper 6th, Calloway 7th, Mertz ? , Bell 7th, etc...)Is a funny statement considering where all those players were drafted, as we both know that almost any player drafted after the 2nd round by this team the last decade was a wasted pick. You forgot to add Ed Wang 4th, Zerbie Sanders 5th.

 

EJ wasn't regarded as a starter right out of college, and the Bills clearly weren't intending to start him at QB since they acquired Kevin Kolb. That said, injuries to the starter (Kolb) forced the team into starting a QB that wasn't ready. In doing that they needed to simplify the playbook for all those rookie QB's. EJ, as well as the other two QB's encountered difficulties during the season for the most part because they weren't protected well enough. 108 hits, 48 sacks is unacceptable.

 

That, along with the inability to control the line of scrimmage, as the Bills ranked near last in every category of offensive efficiency. Which is significant considering how many times they ran the ball, and how many yards gained. The Bills manged to run the ball more then any other team in the NFL, and yet were unable to win many games because they couldn't control the clock or line of scrimmage very well.

 

Last season the Bills fielded an O line with three of the five that often graded in the red against many teams, and were bad against their biggest rival the Patriots. This fact is also significant because it shows the poor play of those three. Now, you yourself have stated in the past that the Bills could use a new starting OT, OG. So I'm not coming out of left field here.

 

 

The resources the Bills expended early in the drafts have been very fruitful in #1 on Eric Wood, #2 on Andy Levitre, #2 on Cordy Glenn. The resources the expended later in the draft on the line have been wasted, as none of those players became decent starters.

 

EJ, nor any of those young QB's will never develop properly if they lack the proper protection to make plays, and gain confidence. Its as simple as that.

A few things, the players drafted early are usually better. I also left off the undrafted OL that has been a perennial Pro Bowler (Jason Peters). The Bills were 2nd in rushing last year and their OL graded out ahead if the Super Bowl Champs.

 

EJ was going to start sooner than later. He was a 1st round pick. He made the line look bad not the other way around. You honestly don't believe that he was going up sit behind Kolb do you? If you do I have a bridge for sale PM me if interested and I will give you my Paypal account info.

 

I am so over having this conversation with you and your crusade. I am so happy that the draft is finally here so that you can stop trolling everyone with your agenda. Yes, I believe that they need 2 OL still that can start. I believe that they can obtain those guys through the 4th.

 

In terms of a right and wrong way to build a team how were those Colts teams in the mid 2000s built? I do not believe that the game is won or lost at the line of scrimmage anymore. The game is won and lost in space. Are you able to get the ball to the right people in space to move the chains? Instead of putting the ball in an area with lots of congestion both offensively & defensively (between the tackles) try to get the ball away from people. This is the basis of the Pats, Saints, & Broncos' offenses. When you get into the red zone and there isn't as much space scores are made in traffic (see Jeffery, Graham, VJax, Megatron, Green, etc). It's not 3 yards and a cloud of dust anymore.

 

EDIT: In the last 5 drafts the Bills have had 13 picks in rounds 1-2 (more than I thought). They have used 3 of those pick on the OL (23.1%). The OL accounts for 5 of your 22 starters (22.7%). If you want to say that that the OL is not good I will agree. If you want to say that the OL has been neglected to push through your agenda, the facts say otherwise.

Edited May 8, 2014 by Kirby Jackson

[Buftex]

Clowney is the guy mentioned most, that scares me.

[Kipers Hair]

Oh...I like this. A man who is literally giving the one finger solute to the NFL know it alls calling out Sammy as anything but special. Well done, Bill...well done. As I have done already, I am casting my lot on Mike Evans - I think he ultimately lacks the nimbleness to be an effective wide out and will find himself more in the Shannon Sharpe roll in a couple of years...still contributing, but not the WR stud projected to be...

[Bill from NYC]

A few things, the players drafted early are usually better. I also left off the undrafted OL that has been a perennial Pro Bowler (Jason Peters). The Bills were 2nd in rushing last year and their OL graded out ahead if the Super Bowl Champs.

 

Here's one more thing.....despite being 2nd in rushing yards they were 28th in time of possession. They were unable to sustain drives. A team needs to be able to pick up first downs on 3rd and short.

[FireChan]

A few things, the players drafted early are usually better. I also left off the undrafted OL that has been a perennial Pro Bowler (Jason Peters). The Bills were 2nd in rushing last year and their OL graded out ahead if the Super Bowl Champs.

 

EJ was going to start sooner than later. He was a 1st round pick. He made the line look bad not the other way around. You honestly don't believe that he was going up sit behind Kolb do you? If you do I have a bridge for sale PM me if interested and I will give you my Paypal account info.

 

I am so over having this conversation with you and your crusade. I am so happy that the draft is finally here so that you can stop trolling everyone with your agenda. Yes, I believe that they need 2 OL still that can start. I believe that they can obtain those guys through the 4th.

 

In terms if a right and wrong way to build a team how were those Colts teams in the mid 2000s built? I do not believe that the game is won or lost at the line of scrimmage anymore. The game is won and lost in space. Are you able to get the ball to the right people in space to move the chains? Instead of putting the ball in an area with lots of congestion both offensively & defensively (between the tackles) try to get the ball away from people. This is the basis of the Pats, Saints, & Broncos' offenses. When you get into the red zone and there isn't as much space scores are made in traffic (see Jeffery, Graham, VJax, Megatron, Green, etc). It's not 3 yards and a cloud of dust anymore.

 

EDIT: In the last 5 drafts the Bills have had 13 picks in rounds 1-2 (more than I thought). They have used 3 of those pick on the OL (23.1%). The OL accounts for 5 of your 22 starters (22.7%). If you want to say that that the OL is not good I will agree. If you want to say that the OL has been neglected to push through your agenda, the facts say otherwise.

 

Bravo. Onwards to the next Da'Rick thread!

[Kirby Jackson]

Here's one more thing.....despite being 2nd in rushing yards they were 28th in time of possession. They were unable to sustain drives. A team needs to be able to pick up first downs on 3rd and short.

To the point that I made earlier I do not believe that you convert 3rd downs between the tackles. The QB play (as I know that you will agree) was a problem as well.

[thebandit27]

Here's one more thing.....despite being 2nd in rushing yards they were 28th in time of possession. They were unable to sustain drives. A team needs to be able to pick up first downs on 3rd and short.

 

They were actually good on 3rd and short, boasting 65% Power Success (14th in the NFL).

 

The biggest reason, IMO, for un-sustained drives was QB and WR inefficiency.

[mannc]

My bad vibes are not about a particular player, but about trading up for a higher pick in round 1. Just a huge mistake almost every time it has been done. I think Sullivan's article today provides a good summary of why it's a sucker's bet.

[thewildrabbit]

Here's one more thing.....despite being 2nd in rushing yards they were 28th in time of possession. They were unable to sustain drives. A team needs to be able to pick up first downs on 3rd and short.

Wasting your time Bill. Edited May 7, 2014 by FeartheLosing

[3rdand12]

They were actually good on 3rd and short, boasting 65% Power Success (14th in the NFL).

 

The biggest reason, IMO, for un-sustained drives was QB and WR inefficiency.

Now i dont think this feels right.

I dont recall the Bills dominant at the line of scrimmage. or imposing their will , as it were.

Deceiving to suggest the line was a strength. imho. Maybe Fred was . But not the line when called upon. A little better later in the year maybe

Edited May 7, 2014 by 3rdand12

[thebandit27]

Now i dont think this feels right.

I dont recall the Bills dominant at the line of scrimmage. or imposing their will , as it were.

Deceiving to suggest the line was a strength. imho. Maybe Fred was . But not the line when called upon. A little better later in the year maybe

 

I certainly wouldn't say dominant...I would say right around average, which 14th in Power Success and YPC would seem to indicate. They were also right around that area in Adjusted Line Yards as well, so all signs point to middle-of-the-pack.

 

I'd certainly like to see RT get upgraded, and it wouldn't hurt to add another guard as well.

 

I don't think you and I are far apart in how we view the line. It's not a clear strength, but it certainly isn't a liability.

[3rdand12]

I certainly wouldn't say dominant...I would say right around average, which 14th in Power Success and YPC would seem to indicate. They were also right around that area in Adjusted Line Yards as well, so all signs point to middle-of-the-pack.

 

I'd certainly like to see RT get upgraded, and it wouldn't hurt to add another guard as well.

 

I don't think you and I are far apart in how we view the line. It's not a clear strength, but it certainly isn't a liability.

We may not be. But I could imagine that Marrone wants more from between the Tackles than last year made available ?

[thewildrabbit]

Now i dont think this feels right.

I dont recall the Bills dominant at the line of scrimmage. or imposing their will , as it were.

Deceiving to suggest the line was a strength. imho. Maybe Fred was . But not the line when called upon. A little better later in the year maybe

my stats tell me the Bills were 29th in 3rd down efficiency, 244 attempts, 69 converted =34%.

 

Three, and out percentage 24.77, 214 drives, 53, and outs raked 25th in the NFL.

 

There is a direct correlation between having the offense on the field, and winning games... mainly because its better to have the offense on the field more then the defense!

 

Last year the Buffalo Bills were 30th in 5 min drive stats. Out of 214 drives only 10 were 5 min or longer.

[3rdand12]

my stats tell me the Bills were 29th in 3rd down efficiency, 244 attempts, 69 converted =34%.

 

Three, and out percentage 24.77, 214 drives, 53, and outs raked 25th in the NFL.

 

There is a direct correlation between having the offense on the field, and winning games... mainly because its better to have the offense on the field more then the defense!

 

Last year the Buffalo Bills were 30th in 5 min drive stats. Out of 214 drives only 10 were 5 min or longer.

and there is that stat !

Last years offense may not have been all it could be. But at least Defenses did not have 12 players in the box as they did under Wannstadt and Fitzmajic !

At least the current lineup can potentially threaten the deep safety. Just did not make best use of that threat last season for multiple reasonings

[thewildrabbit]

A few things, the players drafted early are usually better. I also left off the undrafted OL that has been a perennial Pro Bowler (Jason Peters). The Bills were 2nd in rushing last year and their OL graded out ahead if the Super Bowl Champs.

 

EJ was going to start sooner than later. He was a 1st round pick. He made the line look bad not the other way around. You honestly don't believe that he was going up sit behind Kolb do you? If you do I have a bridge for sale PM me if interested and I will give you my Paypal account info.

 

I am so over having this conversation with you and your crusade. I am so happy that the draft is finally here so that you can stop trolling everyone with your agenda. Yes, I believe that they need 2 OL still that can start. I believe that they can obtain those guys through the 4th.

 

In terms if a right and wrong way to build a team how were those Colts teams in the mid 2000s built? I do not believe that the game is won or lost at the line of scrimmage anymore. The game is won and lost in space. Are you able to get the ball to the right people in space to move the chains? Instead of putting the ball in an area with lots of congestion both offensively & defensively (between the tackles) try to get the ball away from people. This is the basis of the Pats, Saints, & Broncos' offenses. When you get into the red zone and there isn't as much space scores are made in traffic (see Jeffery, Graham, VJax, Megatron, Green, etc). It's not 3 yards and a cloud of dust anymore.

 

EDIT: In the last 5 drafts the Bills have had 13 picks in rounds 1-2 (more than I thought). They have used 3 of those pick on the OL (23.1%). The OL accounts for 5 of your 22 starters (22.7%). If you want to say that that the OL is not good I will agree. If you want to say that the OL has been neglected to push through your agenda, the facts say otherwise.

Yea bravo...

 

My so called "agenda" is to see the this team winning again, and competing for a super bowl, and nothing more. Just because you don't believe in what I believe in I won't call you a troll, or state you are on a crusade to get your points across. But, that is the difference between us.

[Kirby Jackson]

Yea bravo...

 

My so called "agenda" is to see the this team winning again, and competing for a super bowl, and nothing more. Just because you don't believe in what I believe in I won't call you a troll, or state you are on a crusade to get your points across. But, that is the difference between us.

Got it:

Me=bad person

you=good person

 

I don't believe that is your agenda. I believe that you would rather draft 2 OL and go 7-9 than no OL and go 9-7 based only on what you have written since the season ended. I know that I am not alone in this thinking.

 

All that I care about is this team winning. I do not care how they go about doing it. There are tons of different ways to build a winning team and to me it does not matter which path they choose. That is the real difference between us.

Edited May 7, 2014 by Kirby Jackson

[thewildrabbit]

Got it:

Me=bad person

you=good person

 

I don't believe that is your agenda. I believe that you would rather draft 2 OL and go 7-9 than no OL and go 9-7 based only on what you have written since the season ended. I know that I am not alone in this thinking.

 

All that I care about is this team winning. I do not care how they go about doing it. There are tons of different ways to build a winning team and to me it does not matter which path they choose. That is the real difference between us.

Hey man, I'm not calling you names or lowering myself to claim you have an agenda or are on a crusade. Yet, you relentlessly follow me around this board quoting me and arguing in post after post. Edited May 7, 2014 by FeartheLosing

[BuffaloBob]

 

 

I hear ya, but I would like a player who is capable of playing LT if Glenn is injured, or walks in a couple of years. There is no DJ Fluker in this draft (a pure RT), or so it appears. Btw, watch him this season. He has a chance to be the next Erik Williams, but I digress...

I want the Bills to NOT trade up. There (imo) is absolutely no need to do so. I am hoping for a blocker, and perhaps one of the 3 SEC quarterbacks. You can't have too many due to injuries and trade value. Replacing Tuel with Murray or McCarron would be a smart move imo, as would giving EJ more protection.

 

I am psyched about what can happen this week. Here's to hoping that they don't screw things up yet again!

 

While I don't agree with everything you have said in support of this position, I am, notwithstanding, in complete agreement with this position (EXCEPT FOR THE QB in the first round!! Sorry, but that would be ridiculous. Unless you are suggesting that for the 3rd round or later).

 

I like the playmakers we have already, and that includes Spiller. Part of the problem last year is that the O-line did not have the mobility and overall athleticism to get out on screens and to block for CJ on the outside. I would by far prefer to give EJ more time to throw, and to help the playmakers we already have on this team to be successful, and IMHO that means improving the athleticism and depth of the O-line.

 

Matthews would be ideal but he may not fall. I happen to like Zach Martin almost as much. I don't much give a crap about whether they are going to play the right side and the common "wisdom" that you don't draft right tackles in the first round or in the top ten or whatever.

 

It's not just that Pears is not athletic enough, WTF happens if Cordy Glenn gets hurt for any period of time? I LOVE the scenario that we would have a guy on the right side who can also slide over to the left if necessary and we can still put a lesser guy back in on the right side. I also LOVE the idea that if Wood goes down again, that either one of those guys could be subbed in for him and play at a high level. This alone to me makes them worthy of a high first round pick. Plus, you won't have to worry that either of those guys are going to be arrested for spice possession like a certain other dumbass we drafted with a high pick.

 

This O-line of ours has precariously low depth as well as athleticism, and while the argument goes that you can get these guys in later rounds, that same argument can be made for any position. The only problem is, the percentage likelihood for success falls off for lineman just as it does for any other position.

 

So, I too would be totally po'd over a trade up, and especially for Watkins. I would be thrilled with Matthews if he falls, and would be happy with Martin. I would be also OK with a trade back if it nets us worthy compensation and thus depth and improved athleticism for the O-line along with a mismatch tight end like Niklas.

Edited May 7, 2014 by BuffaloBob

[FireChan]

Hey man, I'm not calling you names or lowering myself to claim you have an agenda or are on a crusade. Yet, you relentlessly follow me around this board quoting me and arguing in post after post.

 

Fear, you post the same thing in every thread. Out of your last 100 posts, I'd bet 99 of them are "draft O-line."

 

Technically that's crusading.

[thewildrabbit]

Fear, you post the same thing in every thread. Out of your last 100 posts, I'd bet 99 of them are "draft O-line."

 

Technically that's crusading.

and you would be wrong, as I post in other threads besides O line threads. just look at my content, as I have opinions about many other aspects of the team, and post about them.

 

I'm just very passionate about what I believe in. I know I'm in the minority here on this particular subject, and that hasn't deterred my passion. Recently there is quite a lot of talk about drafting an OT in the first round. So, I know I'm not alone on this subject.

 

If some of you don't like what I write or choose to believe in something different. Then simply don't read what I post or ignore me. It works great as I have a few on ignore.

[thewildrabbit]

While I don't agree with everything you have said in support of this position, I am, notwithstanding, in complete agreement with this position (EXCEPT FOR THE QB in the first round!! Sorry, but that would be ridiculous. Unless you are suggesting that for the 3rd round or later).

 

I like the playmakers we have already, and that includes Spiller. Part of the problem last year is that the O-line did not have the mobility and overall athleticism to get out on screens and to block for CJ on the outside. I would by far prefer to give EJ more time to throw, and to help the playmakers we already have on this team to be successful, and IMHO that means improving the athleticism and depth of the O-line.

 

Matthews would be ideal but he may not fall. I happen to like Zach Martin almost as much. I don't much give a crap about whether they are going to play the right side and the common "wisdom" that you don't draft right tackles in the first round or in the top ten or whatever.

 

It's not just that Pears is not athletic enough, WTF happens if Cordy Glenn gets hurt for any period of time? I LOVE the scenario that we would have a guy on the right side who can also slide over to the left if necessary and we can still put a lesser guy back in on the right side. I also LOVE the idea that if Wood goes down again, that either one of those guys could be subbed in for him and play at a high level. This alone to me makes them worthy of a high first round pick. Plus, you won't have to worry that either of those guys are going to be arrested for spice possession like a certain other dumbass we drafted with a high pick.

 

This O-line of ours has precariously low depth as well as athleticism, and while the argument goes that you can get these guys in later rounds, that same argument can be made for any position. The only problem is, the percentage likelihood for success falls off for lineman just as it does for any other position.

 

So, I too would be totally po'd over a trade up, and especially for Watkins. I would be thrilled with Matthews if he falls, and would be happy with Martin. I would be also OK with a trade back if it nets us worthy compensation and thus depth and improved athleticism for the O-line along with a mismatch tight end like Niklas.

Well said, and I agree with everything. Welcome to the minority

[jumbalaya]

Watkins is anything but a gadget player. He is big bodied, great hands, speed and best of all he plays hungry. He wants the ball. That is what you want from a number 1.

[K-9]

Watkins is anything but a gadget player. He is big bodied, great hands, speed and best of all he plays hungry. He wants the ball. That is what you want from a number 1.

 

And he'll knock you on your ass when he blocks, too. He's Boldin with speed and elusiveness. And with a work ethic second to none.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[Reed83HOF]

And he'll knock you on your ass when he blocks, too. He's Boldin with speed and elusiveness. And with a work ethic second to none.

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

Only 2 players worth trading up for are him and Clowney...

[JohnC]

 

 

I repect your opinion and the stats you provided. The thing is, have you ever wondered why, if Spiller is now to be likened to Jim Brown, teams are not beating down the door to trade for him? I have huge doubts that the Bills could get a 3rd round pick for him. Passing league or not, Jim Brown would be worth an untold amount. In another thread Spiller was compared to Barry Sanders, and I suspect that Sanders might be just a little better than Spiller as well.

 

Regardless how you categorize Spiller as a player (specialist) what you can't deny is that since his addition to the team he has been the most impactful player on the offense, even includilng the qb. No player has had more big plays than he has had.

 

There is a lot of acceptable different directions to take in this draft. My preference is to take one of the top four OTs and then take Niklas, the TE from ND. By upgrading the OL you are helping the qb and also helping the most dynamic player on the team (Spiller) be even more impactful.

 

As many others have stated the ultimate issue as to whether this team can become a playoff contender is whether EJ can demonstrate that he is a legitimate franchise qb. I don't know the answer to that critical question. No one does----including his harsh critics. I'm not as down on him as you are. I don't believe that he is the type of qb who is going to be a prolfic passer. That doesn't mean that he can't be a competent starter for us.

Edited May 8, 2014 by JohnC

[thebandit27]

Fear, you post the same thing in every thread. Out of your last 100 posts, I'd bet 99 of them are "draft O-line."

 

Technically that's crusading.

 

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I'd have to agree with you.