papazoid Posted March 27, 2014 Share Posted March 27, 2014 Ah the old why post so much on a Bills message board if I don't really care about the team line. In case you handn't noticed there are actually more forums on this site dedicated to topics other than the Bills than forums talking about the Bills. Why am I posting here? Well in my line of work transference of assets/wealth/estates is an important thing we do and I've been intrigued as to how this was going to play out for years. That time has come so here I am. And what I'm saying is if a team should only stay in a city if they can fill the stadium and you have to beg people to fill the stadium (even when they were very good) then maybe they don't belong there in the first place. Now I don't believe that for a second but that's what your logic is telling me. his logic is crystal clear support = sellouts sellouts are the only unit of measure that demonstrates support to the league and a new owner. all other forms of support are nice, but meaningless in the end towards keeping the team in buffalo. some folks who are able, may be motivated to become season ticket holders simply knowing it is important in keeping the team here. I think it is important and have 10 seasons tix. he is also giving a talk is cheap poke if you will to the folks who constantly complain about the Toronto series or fear relocation , etc... to buy some tix. again, if you are able. in my opinion the biggest reason most folks don't buy tix is financial, but use other excuses in frustration of losing as a reason not to buy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chef Jim Posted March 27, 2014 Share Posted March 27, 2014 his logic is crystal clear support = sellouts sellouts are the only unit of measure that demonstrates support to the league and a new owner. all other forms of support are nice, but meaningless in the end towards keeping the team in buffalo. some folks who are able, may be motivated to become season ticket holders simply knowing it is important in keeping the team here. I think it is important and have 10 seasons tix. he is also giving a talk is cheap poke if you will to the folks who constantly complain about the Toronto series or fear relocation , etc... to buy some tix. again, if you are able. in my opinion the biggest reason most folks don't buy tix is financial, but use other excuses in frustration of losing as a reason not to buy. You're not looking at it from a business perspective. You're looking at it as a fan. For an investor it's all about the ROI and though butts in seats is important it's one I several revenue streams. If support is low now they know that they can fill that stadium buy putting out a quality product. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papazoid Posted March 27, 2014 Share Posted March 27, 2014 You're not looking at it from a business perspective. You're looking at it as a fan. For an investor it's all about the ROI and though butts in seats is important it's one I several revenue streams. If support is low now they know that they can fill that stadium buy putting out a quality product. some owners are not in it for ROI. if they wanted to make money they would drill another well. sellouts would make it very difficult for a majority of owners to approve any relocation request. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted March 27, 2014 Share Posted March 27, 2014 You're not looking at it from a business perspective. You're looking at it as a fan. For an investor it's all about the ROI and though butts in seats is important it's one I several revenue streams. If support is low now they know that they can fill that stadium buy putting out a quality product. So, as a business owner, you'd support the stay in Buffalo for a fan base that isn't showing up? "Hey, I wanna build a winner for these fans not going to games!" I'd rather go 0-16 every year for my lifetime than lose the Bills from Buffalo. If you wouldn't, you aren't a fan, IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TSNBDSC Posted March 27, 2014 Share Posted March 27, 2014 "We know they have a lease. We know the terms of that lease, and we know we have to find a long-term solution to keep the Bills there, and that is what we'll work to do. But that's not our priority now, in the next few days. Rodger Goodell from USA Today. http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/2014/03/26/roger-goodell-on-expanded-playoffs-for-2014-i-wouldnt-rule-it-out/6910381/ They're not leaving. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reed83HOF Posted March 27, 2014 Author Share Posted March 27, 2014 I do think that Ralph has a plan in place; no knowledge just a hunch. Now that I live in the LA area, lots of people I work with are wondering why I seem worried if they might leave. They look at us as one of those teams that will always be there; since we support the team. Also after the disaster of the Browns leaving and them getting another team; everyone feels that door as kind of closed. Is this paranoia out there because of random media speculation (we tend to have moved from a reporting the facts to endless speculation and what-ifs) and our own inferiority? If we have showed up over the last 14 years of garbage football, plus the other 23 years of losing seasons; why would we not show up now? If we continue to support the team, buy stuff and show up; it makes it really hard for someone to move the team. With the Rich's, Jacobs, Pegula's and Gulisano's around along with JKs group and even the guy from NC with ties; we should be fine. Our duty is to help support the team. We may have to pay more money for seats, the Ralph could get retrofitted like Chicago or Green Bay, or their could be a new stadium. Show up and support the team, but Bills stuff, do our part show the NFL this is our team... Ralph donated millions of dollars to the area, he even said this area needs this team - will he really let the team in Buffalo die with him? I really would be shocked if it was to go to the highest bidder. I honestly don't even think Mary would want to do that to the area or her team... It would be nice if we could get a one-off approval for the area to to buy the team... On another note; Littman has been here a looooong time and has been with Ralph for a long time. Part of me does feel that he and everyone else would love to win it all for RW. Are we labeling him a villain, just because he is a bean counter?? Ralph did spend money, we were always close to spending up to the Cap.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillnutinHouston Posted March 27, 2014 Share Posted March 27, 2014 (edited) "We know they have a lease. We know the terms of that lease, and we know we have to find a long-term solution to keep the Bills there, and that is what we'll work to do. But that's not our priority now, in the next few days. Rodger Goodell from USA Today. http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/2014/03/26/roger-goodell-on-expanded-playoffs-for-2014-i-wouldnt-rule-it-out/6910381/ They're not leaving. I posted this same quote four pages ago because I thought it was significant. I can't believe that you and I are the only ones who see that. Having said that, however, I think it is important for the fans to step up and not give anyone more reason to question the viability of the Buffalo market. As PTR has already posted, John Clayton (on GR this afternoon) stated his view that the fans can play a role. Also on GR, Peter King questioned the future of the Bills. With this being said, how fans are debating or denying that they can play a role in the future of the franchise is beyond me. That entitlement mentality is a very dangerous luxury we can't afford these days. Edited March 27, 2014 by BillnutinHouston Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mac4095 Posted March 27, 2014 Share Posted March 27, 2014 We wait. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbb Posted March 27, 2014 Share Posted March 27, 2014 Not that my opinion mattered, but my thoughts when the Colts left Baltimore were "Fine - they didn't deserve a team anyway. They had horrible crowds." But, when the Browns left Cleveland, I thought it was a travesty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICanSleepWhenI'mDead Posted March 27, 2014 Share Posted March 27, 2014 (edited) What happens next? Here's something I didn't know until fairly recently - - when a new owner buys a sports team (including but not limited to the Bills), he gets to reduce his reported profits, for income tax purposes, by something known as the roster depletion allowance (the "RDA.") It's a non-cash expense that potentially allows the new owner to claim paper losses for the first 15 years even if the business is cash flow positive. If you are familiar with real estate investing, it works much like depreciation for apartment building owners, except that the sports team owner can write off the entire purchase price of his franchise over just 15 years. So if John Doe buys the Bills for say $900 million, he gets to claim ($900M/15) = $60 million as a roster depreciation allowance expense every year for 15 years. That is above and beyond his deduction of the team's total annual salary as a business expense that also reduces his taxable profits (just like any other business can deduct the salary of its employees as a business expense). Note that Ralph hasn't been able to claim any RDA expenses for many years, because he owned the team for so long. The Bills are analogous to a fully depreciated apartment building in Ralph's hands - - in that they no longer generated any depreciation expense for income tax purposes. But once that apartment building or the Bills are sold, the new owner can start claiming depreciation expenses based on the new purchase price. So don't shed too many tears when the new owner claims he can't make a sufficient profit in Buffalo because he had to borrow some money for part of the team's purchase price or to make stadium improvements. Given the above assumption of a $900 million purchase price, the new owner could potentially put up to $60 million a year in his pocket for 15 years, and pay absolutely zero income taxes during that time. Explanations of how the RDA works - - as a taxpayer, read 'em and weep: http://www.chicagonow.com/white-sox-observer/2012/06/the-hustler-bill-veeck-and-roster-depreciation-allowance/ http://business.time.com/2012/03/09/why-1-5-billion-for-the-dodgers-might-turn-out-to-be-a-bargain/ Edited March 27, 2014 by ICanSleepWhenI'mDead Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbb Posted March 27, 2014 Share Posted March 27, 2014 Does anybody know exactly what Ralph died from? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nucci Posted March 27, 2014 Share Posted March 27, 2014 Does anybody know exactly what Ralph died from? I'm guessing old age. It was reported he died peacefully. Just ran out of gas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbb Posted March 27, 2014 Share Posted March 27, 2014 Does that really happen? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papazoid Posted March 27, 2014 Share Posted March 27, 2014 (edited) "We know they have a lease. We know the terms of that lease, and we know we have to find a long-term solution to keep the Bills there, and that is what we'll work to do. But that's not our priority now, in the next few days. Rodger Goodell from USA Today. http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/2014/03/26/roger-goodell-on-expanded-playoffs-for-2014-i-wouldnt-rule-it-out/6910381/ They're not leaving. "we have to find a long term solution" DOES NOT EQUAL they're not leaving. we basically have 2-3 years to make a good first impression on a new owner and about 6 years from now before a new owner can trigger the lease's brief opt-out window after the 2019 season which allows for the Bills to be relocated for a $28.4-million fee, peanuts in a purchase-and-relocation transaction that might easily exceed $1 billion. http://blogs.canoe.ca/krykslants/nfl/bills-cannot-be-relocated-before-2020-the-long-reported-400m-buyout-option-does-not-exist/ Edited March 27, 2014 by papazoid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bschmoove Posted March 27, 2014 Share Posted March 27, 2014 http://m.torontosun.com/2014/03/26/bills-to-stay-in-buffalo-until-at-least-2020?token=fb7c0ad51e287f8d459eab11a8bc9452P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KellyToTasker Posted March 27, 2014 Share Posted March 27, 2014 (edited) I do think that Ralph has a plan in place; no knowledge just a hunch. Now that I live in the LA area, lots of people I work with are wondering why I seem worried if they might leave. They look at us as one of those teams that will always be there; since we support the team. Also after the disaster of the Browns leaving and them getting another team; everyone feels that door as kind of closed. Is this paranoia out there because of random media speculation (we tend to have moved from a reporting the facts to endless speculation and what-ifs) and our own inferiority? If we have showed up over the last 14 years of garbage football, plus the other 23 years of losing seasons; why would we not show up now? If we continue to support the team, buy stuff and show up; it makes it really hard for someone to move the team. With the Rich's, Jacobs, Pegula's and Gulisano's around along with JKs group and even the guy from NC with ties; we should be fine. Our duty is to help support the team. We may have to pay more money for seats, the Ralph could get retrofitted like Chicago or Green Bay, or their could be a new stadium. Show up and support the team, but Bills stuff, do our part show the NFL this is our team... Ralph donated millions of dollars to the area, he even said this area needs this team - will he really let the team in Buffalo die with him? I really would be shocked if it was to go to the highest bidder. I honestly don't even think Mary would want to do that to the area or her team... It would be nice if we could get a one-off approval for the area to to buy the team... On another note; Littman has been here a looooong time and has been with Ralph for a long time. Part of me does feel that he and everyone else would love to win it all for RW. Are we labeling him a villain, just because he is a bean counter?? Ralph did spend money, we were always close to spending up to the Cap.... Okay, okay. I admit it. I'm a guy in NC. But I'll have to talk to my wife first. This is a big decision. Edited March 27, 2014 by KellyToTasker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackFergy Posted March 27, 2014 Share Posted March 27, 2014 Okay, okay. I admit it. I'm a guy in NC. But I'll have to talk to my wife first. This is a big decision. We have about 10 coffee cans filled with nickels, dimes and quarters...if you need a partner, I'm in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimmy10 Posted March 27, 2014 Share Posted March 27, 2014 Is it just me or are these "the Bills aren't going anywhere until 2020" reports nothing new to any of us here who have been paying attention since the new lease was signed? It's being described as "Ralph's final gift" to the fans. That just makes me a little uneasy if his "final gift" was a temporary solution we all knew about and not any real long term arrangements for the ownership of the team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted March 27, 2014 Share Posted March 27, 2014 Your analogy is flawed. To most folks, the Buffalo Bills are not simply one product from many among which to choose, like the 5 brands of peanut butter you find on your supermarket shelf. The fact that the team has the Buffalo "brand" makes all the difference in the world - to most of us. Since you are arguing that fans shouldn't be happy just to have the product available for purchase, by extension you are also saying that another team that doesn't have the Buffalo brand (but that wins) will be acceptable. That sounds to me like a bandwagon fan and I doubt most here fall into that category. If I go to the supermarket on "any given Sunday" in the fall here in Rochester, I see Cowboys jerseys, Giants jerseys, the occasional Browns jersey and lots of Steelers jersey. I'm sure it's like that in many cities. There are many "products available for purchase". Your assumption that all local football fans should be happy to purchase the local product, no matter defective--and that the product manufacturer should expect complete and blind "brand" loyalty from all local consumers is....strange. All I'm saying is (in my opinion) if you want to keep the Bills in WNY, fill the stadium. If you don't or believe your loyalty needs to be proven by any actual support of the team, then do whatever you want. Just don't come here crying when the team leaves. PTR Despite earlier claiming that you are not actually saying this..... Got it. I posted this same quote four pages ago because I thought it was significant. I can't believe that you and I are the only ones who see that. Having said that, however, I think it is important for the fans to step up and not give anyone more reason to question the viability of the Buffalo market. As PTR has already posted, John Clayton (on GR this afternoon) stated his view that the fans can play a role. Also on GR, Peter King questioned the future of the Bills. With this being said, how fans are debating or denying that they can play a role in the future of the franchise is beyond me. That entitlement mentality is a very dangerous luxury we can't afford these days. The "entitlement mentality" rests soley with the Bills---by your very own description of how they should be supported no matter their own skill or effort at producing a successful team for years. Throw in the fact that you are an ardent supporter of the annual Toronto game fiasco/embarrassment and your argument makes even less sense. Look, for all of you claiming that the Bills fans, uniformly described as among the most loyal and faithful in all of pro sports (with the exclusion of you and PTL), would only fill every seat in the house in nivember and December, then Bills "will remain viable in WNY", it's just not going to work that way. The next owner, no matter who it is, is well aware fo the very forgiving and slavishly loyal Bills fans he is inheriting. But he knows that a few extr sellouts a year will have absolutely no impact on the finacial vialbility of his investment in buying the team. He already knows how much his monthly nut is going to be. He knows he will not have the luxury of running a profit only business as his predecessor did. He will be under enormous finacial strain--he will move the team or not based on whether he gets a new stadium built for him or not. That's it. Those extra sold seats won't even cover the health care costs of his new staff of Bills employees. The new owner will realize that putting a winning team on the field will fill seats and, more important, will allow himto raise ticket prices on ALL seats. That's how he will cover his monthy nut, not by selling a few thansand more of "the cheapest seats in NFL". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nucci Posted March 27, 2014 Share Posted March 27, 2014 Is it just me or are these "the Bills aren't going anywhere until 2020" reports nothing new to any of us here who have been paying attention since the new lease was signed? It's being described as "Ralph's final gift" to the fans. That just makes me a little uneasy if his "final gift" was a temporary solution we all knew about and not any real long term arrangements for the ownership of the team. What else could he have done? His family does not want the team. The only alternative is to sell it. There is now sufficient time to find a local buyer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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