cantankerous Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 His stats in the preseason against backups and guys not in the NFL: http://www.nfl.com/p...495443/gamelogs Ej's preseason stats against mainly 1st and 2nd stringers: http://www.nfl.com/p...539228/gamelogs So EJ would have beat Mallett out in the preseason last year and we didn't have to give a draft pick to NE. That settles it. Now let's move on. You're so right. The Bills have proven that they make all the best decisions, especially at quarterback. Look at their track record. You and Promo have got to be the biggest homer front office apologists in the history of this board. Well done, indeed! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuntheDamnBall Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 I am really glad that the second Jets game got brought up. The Jets played primarily man coverage with either a single high safety or both safeties in the box and brought pressure. The Jets approach in that game is the polar opposite of what the Steelers attempted. Perhaps I am on the wrong message board? How can we discuss these things when it seems that no one wants to discuss the x's and o's of where EJ really struggles? Fearthelosing brought up 71% of running plays going up the middle as if that hurt EJ's performance, and yet play action off that tendency against man coverage and no safety help sealed that game. Similar play action against zones lead primarily to check-downs again in the games that followed. After that game teams reverted to playing cover-2 shells and EJ reverted to checking down. You know what, if he shows these same tendencies, he'll definitely fail. He has a coaching staff in place and his full offseason in the NFL to work on it all, though. I'm still mystified as to how many people are one and done with a QB that everyone called a high upside prospect who was still pretty raw coming out. He has a lot to prove, and he should get a chance to prove it. Again, Andrew Luck is not walking through that door, and the 4th best QB in this draft is not turning into him overnight, either - nor is Ryan Mallett. Which is what the thread is about, or have I mistakenly not picked up on the code that this is another round for the EJ hate brigade? I'm all for competition, but I'm also all for being realistic about it. You're so right. The Bills have proven that they make all the best decisions, especially at quarterback. Look at their track record. QBs drafted under Doug Whaley: EJ Manuel. That's a pretty huge sample to evaluate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 While on principle I think you're right, Matt Flynn might disagree. Matt Flynn has proven that he's no better than a backup. Starters don't mentor their replacements. Backups don't mentor starters. Some do. But having it happen would not a requirement for a backup. You mean like Kolb, TJax (a second time), Thad, Tuel and Manuel? A sad parade. Yeah, that would look pretty stupid. It wouldn't when it's because of injury. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cantankerous Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 You know what, if he shows these same tendencies, he'll definitely fail. He has a coaching staff in place and his full offseason in the NFL to work on it all, though. I'm still mystified as to how many people are one and done with a QB that everyone called a high upside prospect who was still pretty raw coming out. He has a lot to prove, and he should get a chance to prove it. Again, Andrew Luck is not walking through that door, and the 4th best QB in this draft is not turning into him overnight, either - nor is Ryan Mallett. Which is what the thread is about, or have I mistakenly not picked up on the code that this is another round for the EJ hate brigade? I'm all for competition, but I'm also all for being realistic about it. QBs drafted under Doug Whaley: EJ Manuel. That's a pretty huge sample to evaluate. Forgive me if I'm not completely sold on Manual as the starter, and Thad Lewis backing him up... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorkington Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 We should start a new QB every week until one is put in the Hall of Fame for the one game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuntheDamnBall Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 Matt Flynn has proven that he's no better than a backup. Matt Flynn was traded for to take the starting job and was usurped by a 3rd rounder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1billsfan Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 You're so right. The Bills have proven that they make all the best decisions, especially at quarterback. Look at their track record. You and Promo have got to be the biggest homer front office apologists in the history of this board. Well done, indeed! EJ Manuel had the season everyone expected he'd have. He was projected to be a project QB with a very high upside. He was expected to have a good, bad and ugly rookie season, which he did. So when he goes and has the season that everyone expected, it was seen as a failure by some here like you who are being disingenuous. Go and look at Eli Manning's rookie year, it was awful. He was much more highly regarded than Manuel. Yet Manuel gets judged by the insane fortune of the Colts getting the ready-made Luck or the Seahawks striking gold with the 3rd rounder Wilson. Those are the exceptions to the rule that it takes time for QBs to become what they are going to become. That is and was the path for Manuel. Let's not pretend that he was expected to be a franchise QB right out of the gate, because he wasn't. We should have a very good read on Manuel's progress to becoming a franchise QB after this second season coming up. If he looks lost in the last half of the 2014 games then you guys have much more solid footing to lay your criticisms on the Bills choosing Manuel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RealityCheck Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 You know what, if he shows these same tendencies, he'll definitely fail. He has a coaching staff in place and his full offseason in the NFL to work on it all, though. I'm still mystified as to how many people are one and done with a QB that everyone called a high upside prospect who was still pretty raw coming out. He has a lot to prove, and he should get a chance to prove it. Again, Andrew Luck is not walking through that door, and the 4th best QB in this draft is not turning into him overnight, either - nor is Ryan Mallett. Which is what the thread is about, or have I mistakenly not picked up on the code that this is another round for the EJ hate brigade? I'm all for competition, but I'm also all for being realistic about it. QBs drafted under Doug Whaley: EJ Manuel. That's a pretty huge sample to evaluate. Mr. runthedamball, I am truly with you when it comes to giving EJ more time. He is the QB that I wanted the team to draft and I got my wish. That being said I want to see a much more competitive line-up at QB. Some of his struggles against these soft zones just really give me doubts about him. It just sucks that we keep finding ourselves in the same old jam at QB. Lots of question marks and no clear reason for optimism yet. Watching the playoffs without the Bills in it is really starting to fracture my sanity. I just hope Marrone keeps running the dam ball. It's the only way they will get good at it. Peace dude. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorkington Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 EJ gets one more season, if not two, to prove his worth. People need to just accept that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luxy312 Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 Fear of EJ Manuel being a bust is logical. The last quarterback that made this team look good offensively was Drew Bledsoe, and that was over 10 ago. When we as fans go through the years with Fitzpatrick, Edwards, Losman, Holcomb, Flutie, Johnson and even Van Pelt; we tend to choke on our own vomit a little bit. We also tend to jump the gun and with good reason. We're tired of seeing the team fiddle with experiments for extended periods of time that don't work. Some look at EJ and immediately get that "I told you so" attitude that he's not a superstar after starting just 10 games in his rookie season. He has no doubt had his ups and downs. Then those same fans look at another rookie in Tuel with 1 start and Lewis with 5 for the team and jump to a conclusion that they can't possibly be the answer either and that all of our QB's are horrible. Now enter this discussion going on 5 pages of Ryan Mallett. Here's a guy that's been holding a clip board for Tom Brady for 3 years. His vast resume includes 4 pass attempts, 1 completion and 1 interception TWO YEARS AGO. He's not even a veteran that's shown some sign that he may have the ability to compete. When all is said and done, REGARDLESS of what the fans want, the quarterback position is not in any way shape or form going to be a competitive situation any time soon. If by some freak chance the Bills even gave a shiny red apple to the Patriots for Mallett, I would still argue that they gave too much... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wiz Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 (edited) EJ gets one more season, if not two, to prove his worth. People need to just accept that. They need to get through the other 4 stages first. Fear of EJ Manuel being a bust is logical. The last quarterback that made this team look good offensively was Drew Bledsoe, and that was over 10 ago. When we as fans go through the years with Fitzpatrick, Edwards, Losman, Holcomb, Flutie, Johnson and even Van Pelt; we tend to choke on our own vomit a little bit. We also tend to jump the gun and with good reason. We're tired of seeing the team fiddle with experiments for extended periods of time that don't work. Some look at EJ and immediately get that "I told you so" attitude that he's not a superstar after starting just 10 games in his rookie season. He has no doubt had his ups and downs. Then those same fans look at another rookie in Tuel with 1 start and Lewis with 5 for the team and jump to a conclusion that they can't possibly be the answer either and that all of our QB's are horrible. Now enter this discussion going on 5 pages of Ryan Mallett. Here's a guy that's been holding a clip board for Tom Brady for 3 years. His vast resume includes 4 pass attempts, 1 completion and 1 interception TWO YEARS AGO. He's not even a veteran that's shown some sign that he may have the ability to compete. When all is said and done, REGARDLESS of what the fans want, the quarterback position is not in any way shape or form going to be a competitive situation any time soon. If by some freak chance the Bills even gave a shiny red apple to the Patriots for Mallett, I would still argue that they gave too much... Rodgers sat behind Favre for 3 years. Mallet sat behind Brady for 3 years. Obviously we need to give them a 1st round pick for Mallet. Spot on though Luxy. Edited March 10, 2014 by The Wiz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Biscuit97 Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 You're so right. The Bills have proven that they make all the best decisions, especially at quarterback. Look at their track record. You and Promo have got to be the biggest homer front office apologists in the history of this board. Well done, indeed! Great, well thought response. I give you facts & you respond with crap. Good work & it made the threat better. And I'd rather be a homer than a whiner who has the mindset of a 13 year old. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 Matt Flynn was traded for to take the starting job and was usurped by a 3rd rounder. True, but he underwhelmed. And at that point, he'd been in the league for 4 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigK14094 Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 If we want a semi mobile guy with elite intangibles- he really doesn't make sense. If we want a laser rocket arm, sure. Had that...big arm no head....his name was JP.......afraid Mallet is in the same category. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Over 29 years of fanhood Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 EJ is a more accomplished nfl talent than Mallett. Thad Lewis is a more accomplished nfl talent than Mallett. Jeff Teul is a more accomplished nfl talent than Mallett. Dennis Dixon is a more accomplished nfl talent than Mallett. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malazan Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 Bill Belichick would like Ryan Mallet to be on the Bills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewildrabbit Posted March 11, 2014 Share Posted March 11, 2014 All of the stats you mentioned tell me that the Bills QB position is the team's primary weakness. I don't really understand how these stats you brought up are an endorsement of EJ moving forward. No they are not, at least not in my view. How do you become the #2 team in the entire NFL in rushing yards with the most rushing attempts, and yet grade #16th to 28th in run blocking? Because the RB's are making plays on their own rather then the O line doing their jobs properly. The offense was entirely predictable at running 71% at mid guard. So, it was basically easy to stuff the run, and force the rookie QB's to throw. Thus putting entirely to much pressure on those rookie QB's to make plays on their own. When the run game was effective from the start of the game the QB's had a much easier time in making plays. How often did this start happen, what was their W/L record again, oh yea 6-10! Usually a team that runs the ball as much as the Buffalo Bills did last year have some semblance of ball control, and they couldn't control the LoS or clock by running. The Bills were 25th in three and out drives, and they were 29th in third down efficiency. All the Bills did by being #2 in the NFL in rushing yards is prove that stats are meaningless if you have no ball control. The Bills played three different rookie QB's last season and all three usually showed the same results. 108 hits on the QB, 48 sacks along with numerous pressures because the O line was bad. The stats for the O linemen themselves also showed this as three of the five linemen usually graded in the red most every game. Pears-Legurski-were the worst and Urbik also graded in the red against the Patriots. Now, would the O line look better with Fitz behind center? Who was a QB that could get the ball to the open receiver in 2 seconds or under. Who was a QB that could set line protections properly, and read where the pressure was coming from. Probably, but then consider how young that receiving corps was with two rookies, and a second year WR. Then the vet Stevie Johnson suffering from various injuries a bad hamstring, a bad back, a bad hip, groin pull, and a family member passing. a guy who only played in 12 games because of so many injuries. So, it wasn't just the QB that was the problem! Ya know what! Give the young QB's a better O line, some experienced, healthy receivers, and I'll bet the Bills win more then 6 games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo Barbarian Posted March 11, 2014 Share Posted March 11, 2014 I for one do. That said, I'm not sure how much I would be willing to give up for him. Maybe we can talk about this. What I will say is that he has one of the strongest arms in the NFL. I am not young, and it's one of the best I have ever seen. To put it in perspective, he makes Losman (who had a live, deep arm) look like Fitz on long out patterns. He threw the best post that I have ever seen (50 yards flat footed with almost no air under it), and he even has some touch. I have been around long enough to know that arm strength isn't everything, but this kid is such a freak that I would like the Bills to take a chance with him for a reasonable price. And yes, I think that he has more upside than EJ. Sorry, jmo. no need to be sorry, right on Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RealityCheck Posted March 11, 2014 Share Posted March 11, 2014 (edited) No they are not, at least not in my view. How do you become the #2 team in the entire NFL in rushing yards with the most rushing attempts, and yet grade #16th to 28th in run blocking? Because the RB's are making plays on their own rather then the O line doing their jobs properly. The offense was entirely predictable at running 71% at mid guard. So, it was basically easy to stuff the run, and force the rookie QB's to throw. Thus putting entirely to much pressure on those rookie QB's to make plays on their own. When the run game was effective from the start of the game the QB's had a much easier time in making plays. How often did this start happen, what was their W/L record again, oh yea 6-10! Usually a team that runs the ball as much as the Buffalo Bills did last year have some semblance of ball control, and they couldn't control the LoS or clock by running. The Bills were 25th in three and out drives, and they were 29th in third down efficiency. All the Bills did by being #2 in the NFL in rushing yards is prove that stats are meaningless if you have no ball control. The Bills played three different rookie QB's last season and all three usually showed the same results. 108 hits on the QB, 48 sacks along with numerous pressures because the O line was bad. The stats for the O linemen themselves also showed this as three of the five linemen usually graded in the red most every game. Pears-Legurski-were the worst and Urbik also graded in the red against the Patriots. Now, would the O line look better with Fitz behind center? Who was a QB that could get the ball to the open receiver in 2 seconds or under. Who was a QB that could set line protections properly, and read where the pressure was coming from. Probably, but then consider how young that receiving corps was with two rookies, and a second year WR. Then the vet Stevie Johnson suffering from various injuries a bad hamstring, a bad back, a bad hip, groin pull, and a family member passing. a guy who only played in 12 games because of so many injuries. So, it wasn't just the QB that was the problem! Ya know what! Give the young QB's a better O line, some experienced, healthy receivers, and I'll bet the Bills win more then 6 games. The premise of my concerns remain the same. I am not being harsh on EJ about struggling against the blitz and the exotic pressures that he saw this year. You want to use stats that have ZERO to do with my particular criticism. When EJ saw basic cover-2 shells and off coverage AND had time to throw, receivers were getting open quickly and EJ was pure hesitation and either dumped it to the flat or took the coverage hit/sack. As the season wore on those teams played a cover-2 shell just for it to be a cover-3 variant with one safety going high and one diving to the flat. Why? Because teams saw on FILM that EJ's tendencies were to hesitate and dump it against these basic zone looks, and the TEs and RBs were taking massive hits after the catch, in the flat, barely getting back to the line of scrimmage. It was as predictable a move as his little spin move to the weak side with pressure up the middle. If you don't understand coverages and how EJ was reacting to these alignments then just say so, but the bulk of your argument is based on stats from a broad, non-SITUATIONAL pile of numbers for the entire season. What did you see against the coverages I mentioned? I have seen enough of the All-22 to know that the Bills 3rd down problems stem from missing wide open guys that were finding the soft spots in the zones. Look, I know he is young and that it is still to early to judge him. It is just that most of the young QBs that enter the league and become good usually do a lot of damage against that soft zone garbage. The QB position needs more competition as a whole in my opinion. If a real QB competition hurts EJ's development, then he clearly wasn't meant to compete at all at the NFL level. I believe that competing against another young gun will actually help EJ in the long run even if it means that EJ doesn't start the 2014 season right away. Real competitors embrace adversity. They grow from it and gain confidence in themselves and more importantly the confidence of others due to attrition. Please don't respond with the same old stats that you've mentioned twice already. The idea of poor 3rd efficiency not being primarily a function of the QB is intellectually dishonest. If you were EJ's coach, you would not be helping him by denying the truth of his primary weaknesses at this point in his career. If you don't want to discuss EJ based on situational football and coverages specifically then I am comfortable agreeing to disagree. One thing that we do agree on is that EJ's future is far from decided. I hope he can do it. Edited March 11, 2014 by RealityCheck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Biscuit97 Posted March 11, 2014 Share Posted March 11, 2014 no need to be sorry, right on The Barbarian QB stamp of approval. Sorry Bill, it's official. Mallett sucks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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