Jonathan Martin

[TXBILLSFAN]

I just read through 1000 texts between theses two guys spanning over a year and up to 3 weeks before he quit the team.

 

It reads like 2 total "bros". What struck me most is how, by reading them, you have no idea that JM is suffering abuse at the hand of RI, and you get no sense that RI is this raging sadist.

 

If you read only those texts and knew nothing else of this story, you would never conclude there is a abusive relationship going on. It's fascinating. Totally inconfruent with the events.

 

Check it out:

 

http://thebiglead.co...edly-exchanged/

I read them a couple weeks back BEFORE the report was published and at that point in time I was back on the fence and uncertain on whether there was an issue of bullying or not --- after the report was released, I read the Wells report in it's entirety and I am now firmly in the camp that there was bullying. Wells was able to put things into proper context including the psychological effects a bully has on a victim, including their behavior, which at times will appear to be inconsistent with being a victim. If you haven't read the Wells report, I think you'll find it a compelling argument that bullying was taking place over an extended period and the actions JM took were completely consistent with that of a person who was on the receiving end of being bullied.

Edited February 20, 2014 by TXBILLSFAN

[cage]

I'd rather have Richie Incognito back, seriously. Just don't make him a captain, he's better then anyone that played guard for us this year.

 

How about we sign both of them?

[NoSaint]

 

I read them a couple weeks back BEFORE the report was published and at that point in time I was back on the fence and uncertain on whether there was an issue of bullying or not --- after the report was released, I read the Wells report in it's entirety and I am now firmly in the camp that there was bullying. Wells was able to put things into proper context including the psychological effects a bully has on a victim, including their behavior, which at times will appear to be inconsistent with being a victim. If you haven't read the Wells report, I think you'll find it a compelling argument that bullying was taking place over an extended period and the actions JM took were completely consistent with that of a person who was on the receiving end of being bullied.

 

the texts alone, you get a friendly jocks will be jocks vibe but certainly a good idea of who the Alpha is between the two..... with the context of the rest of the situations/the report, i can definitely see a scenario where JM was just trying to fit in and hoped it would stop (even when joking around - "oh how i missed you guys demeaning me" - not verbatim but close and im not going back to look for it)

 

i wont say i know what happened, but the situation where JM was unhappy and tried fitting in, maybe tried standing up for himself a few times and was laughed at or got it worse, and just didnt know what to do seems like the likely one in my head - especially compared to some of the alternatives.

Edited February 20, 2014 by NoSaint

[GunnerBill]

I'm asking you and others to form an opinion after reading the texts. I can see you don't want to. This is a direct look into the documented social relationship these guys had. Why would you dismiss it--especially without reading it?

 

I've read the texts. What I'm wondering is why you are asking us to form an opinion based on the texts alone? Cherry picking pieces of evidence out of context is never a good idea whatever the issue. The texts to me suggest a dysfunctional relationship although not necessarily "bullying behaviour", once you put them in the context of the other evidence the pattern of bullying behaviour is quite clear.

[FireChan]

 

 

I've read the texts. What I'm wondering is why you are asking us to form an opinion based on the texts alone? Cherry picking pieces of evidence out of context is never a good idea whatever the issue. The texts to me suggest a dysfunctional relationship although not necessarily "bullying behaviour", once you put them in the context of the other evidence the pattern of bullying behaviour is quite clear.

 

How do you put them in context? Because another report said he was bullied? So now, the content of the texts not withstanding, they are further proof that he was bullied?

 

The texts show no bullying. At all. If you believe they do, then friends all over the planet bully each other every day.

 

WEO is saying, I assume, that the texts do not support the report. The evidence directly contradicts each other. One, the written messages between two players and the other, an NFL funded "report."

 

 

[TXBILLSFAN]

How do you put them in context? Because another report said he was bullied? So now, the content of the texts not withstanding, they are further proof that he was bullied?

 

The texts show no bullying. At all. If you believe they do, then friends all over the planet bully each other every day.

 

WEO is saying, I assume, that the texts do not support the report. The evidence directly contradicts each other. One, the written messages between two players and the other, an NFL funded "report."

You really have to read the report. The report puts the texts into the proper context with the other evidence collected from the people involved that were interviewed as well as experts who understand the psychology of bullying.

[GunnerBill]

You really have to read the report. The report puts the texts into the proper context with the other evidence collected from the people involved that were interviewed as well as experts who understand the psychology of bullying.

 

Correct.

[Justice]

 

 

You could also spend 15 seconds re-reading my post. I'm simply saying that it is interesting that the text reveal no pathology in this relationship at all--and that is at odds with all the other evidence.

 

I'm asking you and others to form an opinion after reading the texts. I can see you don't want to. This is a direct look into the documented social relationship these guys had. Why would you dismiss it--especially without reading it?

 

Just read it. I read the Wells report, too. After doing so I have to side with Incognito on this.

 

Here's the facts.

 

A. Bullies don't hang out with their victims. Victims don't hang out with their bullies, and they hung out a lot.

 

B. Most of the Miami Dolphins took RI's side on this matter.

 

C. Martin has a mental condition. He also said he's been bullied all throughout High School. Maybe his idea of being bullied isn't the same as everyone-else's.

 

D. Wells doesn't know these guys personally like their teammates do. He isn't even a former player so he has no idea what it's like to be in a NFL locker-room.

[RuntheDamnBall]

Just read it. I read the Wells report, too. After doing so I have to side with Incognito on this.

 

Here's the facts.

 

A. Bullies don't hang out with their victims. Victims don't hang out with their bullies, and they hung out a lot.

 

B. Most of the Miami Dolphins took RI's side on this matter.

 

C. Martin has a mental condition. He also said he's been bullied all throughout High School. Maybe his idea of being bullied isn't the same as everyone-else's.

 

D. Wells doesn't know these guys personally like their teammates do. He isn't even a former player so he has no idea what it's like to be in a NFL locker-room.

Obviously you have never been bullied.

[NoSaint]

 

 

Just read it. I read the Wells report, too. After doing so I have to side with Incognito on this.

 

Here's the facts.

 

A. Bullies don't hang out with their victims. Victims don't hang out with their bullies, and they hung out a lot.

 

B. Most of the Miami Dolphins took RI's side on this matter.

 

C. Martin has a mental condition. He also said he's been bullied all throughout High School. Maybe his idea of being bullied isn't the same as everyone-else's.

 

D. Wells doesn't know these guys personally like their teammates do. He isn't even a former player so he has no idea what it's like to be in a NFL locker-room.

 

I'm sorry but your "here's the facts" sounds more like "here are my opinions on possibilities presented as facts"

 

A) simply not true. Plenty of social structures involve picking on the weak link that wants to be part of the group. In this case Martin was drafted and forced to serve in the unit for years. There's no singular formula but what you described as unrealistic isn't even that rare of a dynamic.

 

B) Aaron hernandezs partner in crime isn't likely to be the best source. Frankly anyone in a locker room that made Richie a captain is a bit questionable in their judgement of social norms. Additionally, nobody around it that partook or ignored issues is going to say "oh yea that obviously happened and I stood by or helped!"

 

C) Martin does have his own issues to work through. Agreed.

 

D) you don't know any of them either nor have you been in an nfl locker room. In fact I bet wells has been quite a bit closer than you but you discount his view as uninformed. Odd.

Edited February 21, 2014 by NoSaint

[Justice]

 

Obviously you have never been bullied.

 

I have. I stuck up for myself and earned their respect. Bullying was never an issue after that.

[BarleyNY]

I don't see the bullying. From the early reports I thought there was, but after reading the texts I don't. No way does a guy who is bullying another guy send most of those.

[Justice]

 

 

I'm sorry but your "here's the facts" sounds more like "here are my opinions on possibilities presented as facts"

 

A) simply not true. Plenty of social structures involve picking on the weak link that wants to be part of the group. In this case Martin was drafted and forced to serve in the unit for years. There's no singular formula but what you described as unrealistic isn't even that rare of a dynamic.

 

B) Aaron hernandezs partner in crime isn't likely to be the best source. Frankly anyone in a locker room that made Richie a captain is a bit questionable in their judgement of social norms. Additionally, nobody around it that partook or ignored issues is going to say "oh yea that obviously happened and I stood by or helped!"

 

C) Martin does have his own issues to work through. Agreed.

 

D) you don't know any of them either nor have you been in an nfl locker room. In fact I bet wells has been quite a bit closer than you but you discount his view as uninformed. Odd.

 

I live down here in Miami and I occasionally listen to local sports radio. The vast majority of Dolphins players, past and present, side with Incognito. Most of the media, too.

[RuntheDamnBall]

I have. I stuck up for myself and earned their respect. Bullying was never an issue after that.

Well, good for those guys. Some times it doesn't pay to do anything other than to dissociate yourself from a group of people who have a different set of values. Speaking from my own experience, you can work real hard to "earn the respect" of people who have done nothing to deserve your effort, or you can go your own way and say f--- them by succeeding at what you're good at. There is not a one-size-fits-all approach, and there is no reason to sit there and take it from people who don't deserve your best. In a team sports situation, if my supervisors or team leaders believed that was the way to get my best, I'd tell them that they are not worth my time.

[Just in Atlanta]

Just read it. I read the Wells report, too. After doing so I have to side with Incognito on this.

 

Here's the facts.

 

A. Bullies don't hang out with their victims. Victims don't hang out with their bullies, and they hung out a lot.

 

B. Most of the Miami Dolphins took RI's side on this matter.

 

C. Martin has a mental condition. He also said he's been bullied all throughout High School. Maybe his idea of being bullied isn't the same as everyone-else's.

 

D. Wells doesn't know these guys personally like their teammates do. He isn't even a former player so he has no idea what it's like to be in a NFL locker-room.

 

E. His mom is a well-known employment harassment attorney.

[Beerball]

I live down here in Miami and I occasionally listen to local sports radio. The vast majority of Dolphins players, past and present, side with Incognito. Most of the media, too.

That and 3.75 will get you a cup of coffee.

[Justice]

 

Well, good for those guys. Some times it doesn't pay to do anything other than to dissociate yourself from a group of people who have a different set of values. Speaking from my own experience, you can work real hard to "earn the respect" of people who have done nothing to deserve your effort, or you can go your own way and say f--- them by succeeding at what you're good at. There is not a one-size-fits-all approach, and there is no reason to sit there and take it from people who don't deserve your best. In a team sports situation, if my supervisors or team leaders believed that was the way to get my best, I'd tell them that they are not worth my time.

 

My definition of being bullied differs from some. If there's no physical abuse that's called being made fun of. My parents taught me that old saying, "sticks and stones...", I was physically bullied. I fought back. Respect earned the hard way. It's not like I was trying to earn their respect. I was just defending myself.

[TXBILLSFAN]

I live down here in Miami and I occasionally listen to local sports radio. The vast majority of Dolphins players, past and present, side with Incognito. Most of the media, too.

I know the Dolphin players were siding with RI at outset, are you saying the players are still siding with RI since the report was released ? If so, do you have any links to articles or quotes, I searched and haven't found anything since the report was issued. I also disagree with your comment that victims don't hang out with their bullies, that is simply not true and if you do some research it is actually a very common coping mechanism for a victim of bullying to try and befriend the bully, in some cases, victims try and bully others to "fit in".

Edited February 21, 2014 by TXBILLSFAN

[NoSaint]

 

 

My definition of being bullied differs from some. If there's no physical abuse that's called being made fun of. My parents taught me that old saying, "sticks and stones...", I was physically bullied. I fought back. Respect earned the hard way. It's not like I was trying to earn their respect. I was just defending myself.

 

I encourage you to read about psychological issues. Just cause Martin wasn't physically beaten (though there are reports of Richie besting him after he flew off the deepend while playfully wrestling) doesn't mean that he wasn't subject to issues that were bad for his health and that he didn't know how to cope with. You can do quite a bit with words, despite a saying to make small children feel better.

[FireChan]

I just don't understand who hangs out with the people that are "bullying" you. I don't get it. I'm sorry, but to put Martin's allegedly fragile mental state and reasoning on Incognito is unfair. Martin might have thought, "If I hang out with this guy who I secretly hate and give it as good as I get, maybe he'll take it easier on me," but that's not Richie's fault. People are different, but to go out of your way to be around your so called tormentor flies in the face of logic and may be caused by some mental issues.

 

You can say, "Martin didn't have a choice," but he did. The only thing he was forced to do was to go to work. Not to go out to strip clubs and hang out with women with his "abuser." Asomougha ostracized himself from the Philly locker room, ate lunch alone in his car and never once got in trouble by his bosses.

 

Martin may have been troubled. And him being troubled directly contributed to this mess. That's not Richie's fault or Martin's fault or anyone else's.

 

When a kid with mental issues gets made fun, snaps and goes on a rampage, you don't lay the blame of the dead on the bullies. Sure, they may have had a hand in it, but who is to say it wouldn't have happened on its own anyway?

Edited February 21, 2014 by FireChan