Jonathan Martin

[Mr. WEO]

I've read the texts. What I'm wondering is why you are asking us to form an opinion based on the texts alone? Cherry picking pieces of evidence out of context is never a good idea whatever the issue. The texts to me suggest a dysfunctional relationship although not necessarily "bullying behaviour", once you put them in the context of the other evidence the pattern of bullying behaviour is quite clear.

 

I'm not. What I am doing is asking you form an opinion about the texts in relation to all else that is known. Simply saying "read the report" is not an opinion.

 

The investigators themselves "struggled with how to evaluate Martin's claims of harassment given his mental health issues, his possible heightened sensitivity to insults and his unusual, 'bipolar' friendship with Incognito".

 

You really have to read the report. The report puts the texts into the proper context with the other evidence collected from the people involved that were interviewed as well as experts who understand the psychology of bullying.

 

Perhaps I'm not being clear about my point regarding the texts.

 

First, I've read the report. Second, I'm not saying bullying did not occur--essentially it occurs when the person who is the target says it does (see above).

 

But for the texts, it's not Martin's texts that I found incongruous (I get it--he's playing the abused wife defense, trying to "fit in" with his "tormenter" in the hopes he Richie will lay off him). It's Incognito's texts that struck me. I kept waiting for the malice, the harshness, the cruelty, the manipulation, the outright....meanness to appear. I never does.

 

It seems like 700 of those 1000 texts are "what you doing tonight?" They talk about purely mundane stuff involving socializing--and that's it. I thought there would be something in this massive documentation of their almost hour to hour relationship where I could say, "man, RI is just using/abusing this poor kid. Why does Martin continue to respond to this abuse?"

 

But there is nothing like that. And that is why I brought up the texts.

 

There's no question that RI was stunned when he found out his "buddy", after walking off the team (and despite more "bro" texting from his psych hospital), was telling his agent, his parents and the team that he left mainly because of the harrassment from him. I really think RI thought things were cool between him and Martin up to that point.

[RuntheDamnBall]

I just don't understand who hangs out with the people that are "bullying" you. I don't get it. I'm sorry, but to put Martin's allegedly fragile mental state and reasoning on Incognito is unfair. Martin might have thought, "If I hang out with this guy who I secretly hate and give it as good as I get, maybe he'll take it easier on me," but that's not Richie's fault. People are different, but to go out of your way to be around your so called tormentor flies in the face of logic and may be caused by some mental issues.

 

You can say, "Martin didn't have a choice," but he did. The only thing he was forced to do was to go to work. Not to go out to strip clubs and hang out with women with his "abuser." Asomougha ostracized himself from the Philly locker room, ate lunch alone in his car and never once got in trouble by his bosses.

 

Martin may have been troubled. And him being troubled directly contributed to this mess. That's not Richie's fault or Martin's fault or anyone else's.

 

When a kid with mental issues gets made fun, snaps and goes on a rampage, you don't lay the blame of the dead on the bullies. Sure, they may have had a hand in it, but who is to say it wouldn't have happened on its own anyway?

Lots to discuss here, but one thing is that RI had the information that JM was suicidal at some point (he used it to "defend" himself via Twitter. Classy, right?). If you know that, maybe you f---ing lay off?

 

And OL is a part of the team where the bonding is always strong, very much at the suggestion of the coaches. It is not surprising that JM would want to fit in, especially when his livelihood depended on it. Now, a stronger guy with a better sense of self, like Schlereth, can say he doesn't feel like doing that. He also said that he had a family to go home to -- something Martin didn't, which is a distinction. He also wasn't being fined by his teammates for not being a part of stuff, or incessantly texted by them. It's my guess that to some degree RI took his mission from the team to help RI feel a part of the activity, but had no real idea how to lead and actually do that because he was only a reformed career f---up, never a strong character guy.

 

It ends up being a lot of texts and invitations to go workout, cruise for girls, and go drinking. I'm not saying that a young guy shouldn't enjoy himself, but I'm also not sure that Incognito's program would have led to greater success for the Miami OL or offense.

[NoSaint]

 

 

I'm not. What I am doing is asking you form an opinion about the texts in relation to all else that is known. Simply saying "read the report" is not an opinion.

 

The investigators themselves "struggled with how to evaluate Martin's claims of harassment given his mental health issues, his possible heightened sensitivity to insults and his unusual, 'bipolar' friendship with Incognito".

 

 

 

Perhaps I'm not being clear about my point regarding the texts.

 

First, I've read the report. Second, I'm not saying bullying did not occur--essentially it occurs when the person who is the target says it does (see above).

 

But for the texts, it's not Martin's texts that I found incongruous (I get it--he's playing the abused wife defense, trying to "fit in" with his "tormenter" in the hopes he Richie will lay off him). It's Incognito's texts that struck me. I kept waiting for the malice, the harshness, the cruelty, the manipulation, the outright....meanness to appear. I never does.

 

It seems like 700 of those 1000 texts are "what you doing tonight?" They talk about purely mundane stuff involving socializing--and that's it. I thought there would be something in this massive documentation of their almost hour to hour relationship where I could say, "man, RI is just using/abusing this poor kid. Why does Martin continue to respond to this abuse?"

 

But there is nothing like that. And that is why I brought up the texts.

 

There's no question that RI was stunned when he found out his "buddy", after walking off the team (and despite more "bro" texting from his psych hospital), was telling his agent, his parents and the team that he left mainly because of the harrassment from him. I really think RI thought things were cool between him and Martin up to that point.

 

Honest question, as I don't have a fully formed answer myself: Do you think at any point RI actually LIKED each other, or were they both just playing the part of teammate that worked next to each other and are supposed to be friends?

 

While Ritchie has played the he was my brother and best friend angle in this I think I struggle to see THAT as much as some are struggling to see the potentially toxic nature.

[GunnerBill]

I'm not. What I am doing is asking you form an opinion about the texts in relation to all else that is known. Simply saying "read the report" is not an opinion.

 

The investigators themselves "struggled with how to evaluate Martin's claims of harassment given his mental health issues, his possible heightened sensitivity to insults and his unusual, 'bipolar' friendship with Incognito".

 

I've answered that. The texts in themselves indicate to me a dysfunctional relationship, you characterise this as an "unusual bipolar friendship" which I don't think is a million miles away from the same thing. Once we look at the texts in relation to all else that is known I think they become altogether more sinister. What comes across very clearly to me from the texts, even the ones that are simply socialising small talk, is that Richie Incognito is the guy with the control. And when you see consider what else is known I don't think it's hard to recognise that control as part of a bullying relationship.

 

Incognito didn't know he was "bullying" Jonathan Martin.... but he knew he was the boss in that relationship, totally, and much of the behaviour outlined in the report is behaviour designed to reinforce that relationship structure and he knew he was doing that.

[Mr. WEO]

Honest question, as I don't have a fully formed answer myself: Do you think at any point RI actually LIKED each other, or were they both just playing the part of teammate that worked next to each other and are supposed to be friends?

 

While Ritchie has played the he was my brother and best friend angle in this I think I struggle to see THAT as much as some are struggling to see the potentially toxic nature.

 

I think Incognito thought he was truly "buddies" with Martin--certainly off the field. But I also beleive that Incognito is what he is--a meathead who relished his leadership role (he was selected by team mates) in the locker room. I believe he truly thought this was all fun and games and part of the things he should do as the leader of the tough guys on the offense--the O-line. He used Martin to heighten his "leader of men" creds with his teammates, no doubt, but I think he figured Martin was OK with it, since outside the building, when it was the two of them, they hung out just fine.

 

Sure, RI tweeted out all that "he's my brother" stuff after the feces hit his fan, as one would expect. But reading the texts, you can get no other impression than these are two guys who seek eachother's company in social settings outside of work.

 

I've answered that. The texts in themselves indicate to me a dysfunctional relationship, you characterise this as an "unusual bipolar friendship" which I don't think is a million miles away from the same thing. Once we look at the texts in relation to all else that is known I think they become altogether more sinister. What comes across very clearly to me from the texts, even the ones that are simply socialising small talk, is that Richie Incognito is the guy with the control. And when you see consider what else is known I don't think it's hard to recognise that control as part of a bullying relationship.

 

Incognito didn't know he was "bullying" Jonathan Martin.... but he knew he was the boss in that relationship, totally, and much of the behaviour outlined in the report is behaviour designed to reinforce that relationship structure and he knew he was doing that.

 

I didn't characterize it that way, that was a quote from the report. You should read it.

 

reading all of those texts, I didn't get that RI was controlling Martin. In fact, if we took the names away and read them without the influence of the Wells report, they would look even more mundane.

[Beerball]

I just don't understand who hangs out with the people that are "bullying" you.

Based on my uninformed opinion...someone who desperately wants to fit in.

[TXBILLSFAN]

I'm not. What I am doing is asking you form an opinion about the texts in relation to all else that is known. Simply saying "read the report" is not an opinion.

 

The investigators themselves "struggled with how to evaluate Martin's claims of harassment given his mental health issues, his possible heightened sensitivity to insults and his unusual, 'bipolar' friendship with Incognito".

 

 

 

Perhaps I'm not being clear about my point regarding the texts.

 

First, I've read the report. Second, I'm not saying bullying did not occur--essentially it occurs when the person who is the target says it does (see above).

 

But for the texts, it's not Martin's texts that I found incongruous (I get it--he's playing the abused wife defense, trying to "fit in" with his "tormenter" in the hopes he Richie will lay off him). It's Incognito's texts that struck me. I kept waiting for the malice, the harshness, the cruelty, the manipulation, the outright....meanness to appear. I never does.

 

It seems like 700 of those 1000 texts are "what you doing tonight?" They talk about purely mundane stuff involving socializing--and that's it. I thought there would be something in this massive documentation of their almost hour to hour relationship where I could say, "man, RI is just using/abusing this poor kid. Why does Martin continue to respond to this abuse?"

 

But there is nothing like that. And that is why I brought up the texts.

 

There's no question that RI was stunned when he found out his "buddy", after walking off the team (and despite more "bro" texting from his psych hospital), was telling his agent, his parents and the team that he left mainly because of the harrassment from him. I really think RI thought things were cool between him and Martin up to that point.

The texts in isolation clearly contradict the inference of bullying, when I first read them (before the report), I started to side with the crowd that was saying this was simply a dysfunctional, but mutual relationship. I think the report put the texts into context by explaining the psychological affect being bullied has on a person. I think what's hard for all of us (I include myself), is that we all know an NFL locker room is different than a corporate board room and we all see these incredible athletes that are physically intimidating and wonder, how could a guy like JM take it, over and over and not do anything or say anything to someone other than his parents. In the report, you read the texts he sent his parents and you realize, inside JM was no different than the short, skinny kid in high school that was being pushed around by the meathead. If you can't get there in the review of the evidence in the report, I completely understand, because it takes a leap of sorts to allow yourself to see JM as a victim, mostly emotionally and mentally, but a victim nonetheless.

Edited February 21, 2014 by TXBILLSFAN

[GunnerBill]

I didn't characterize it that way, that was a quote from the report. You should read it.

 

I knew it was language from the report but I misread your quotation marks, I thought it was words that you were lifting and using, but I see it was still part of the direct quote. My bad.

[Mr. WEO]

The texts in isolation clearly contradict the inference of bullying, when I first read them (before the report), I started to side with the crowd that was saying this was simply a dysfunctional, but mutual relationship. I think the report put the texts into context by explaining the psychological affect being bullied has on a person. I think what's hard for all of us (I include myself), is that we all know an NFL locker room is different than a corporate board room and we all see these incredible athletes that are physically intimidating and wonder, how could a guy like JM take it, over and over and not do anything or say anything to someone other than his parents. In the report, you read the texts he sent his parents and you realize, inside JM was no different than the short, skinny kid in high school that was being pushed around by the meathead. If you can't get there in the review of the evidence in the report, I completely understand, because it takes a leap of sorts to allow yourself to see JM as a victim, mostly emotionally and mentally, but a victim nonetheless.

 

You keep mentioning only JM texts. I've tried several times to direct your attention also to RI's texts, and the dynamic between the two guys. I read all about the Wells report's psycholigist's opinion on bullying victims trying to fit in (I just acknowledged that in my previous text).

 

The interesting thing is how RI felt this was a normal relationship between two guys who spend nearly all of their time together.

 

The events happened and the report is what it is. It just seems that there is still something missing here. Something, to me, not completely clear regarding JM and how this all went down. Such a long history of this victimization, yet his parent didn't seem aware. The 2 "suicidal periods", yet no hospitalizations? The fact that he never went to the HC and instead left the team and went public this whole mess--a decision the Wells report was critical of.

 

I knew it was language from the report but I misread your quotation marks, I thought it was words that you were lifting and using, but I see it was still part of the direct quote. My bad.

 

No problem

[TXBILLSFAN]

You keep mentioning only JM texts. I've tried several times to direct your attention also to RI's texts, and the dynamic between the two guys. I read all about the Wells report's psycholigist's opinion on bullying victims trying to fit in (I just acknowledged that in my previous text).

 

The interesting thing is how RI felt this was a normal relationship between two guys who spend nearly all of their time together.

 

The events happened and the report is what it is. It just seems that there is still something missing here. Something, to me, not completely clear regarding JM and how this all went down. Such a long history of this victimization, yet his parent didn't seem aware. The 2 "suicidal periods", yet no hospitalizations? The fact that he never went to the HC and instead left the team and went public this whole mess--a decision the Wells report was critical of.

 

 

 

No problem

Sorry, I agree with your assessment on RI texts, he seems to be oblivious to what he is doing, even his interview and tweets since this became public are all over the place. To be honest, I'm not sure if his actions are consistent with a serial bully or if he is just a meathead who doesn't know any better and thinks his behavior is normal and socially acceptable. Puzzling.

[NoSaint]

 

Sorry, I agree with your assessment on RI texts, he seems to be oblivious to what he is doing, even his interview and tweets since this became public are all over the place. To be honest, I'm not sure if his actions are consistent with a serial bully or if he is just a meathead who doesn't know any better and thinks his behavior is normal and socially acceptable. Puzzling.

 

ive said it a few times, but i think RI likely has some actual disorders himself that are simply being chalked up to him being a meathead. talk of his bipolar relationships, the nickname "the tornado," the drug abuse, being kicked off multiple teams, issues on and off the field....

 

two people that dont function well, one aggressive, the other prone to being victimized, trying to get along.... the aggressive one in a leadership role trying to toughen up the weak one... seems like poor planning all around, even if they both generally had good intentions

[MattM]

 

 

ive said it a few times, but i think RI likely has some actual disorders himself that are simply being chalked up to him being a meathead. talk of his bipolar relationships, the nickname "the tornado," the drug abuse, being kicked off multiple teams, issues on and off the field....

 

two people that dont function well, one aggressive, the other prone to being victimized, trying to get along.... the aggressive one in a leadership role trying to toughen up the weak one... seems like poor planning all around, even if they both generally had good intentions

 

I've read 2/3rds of the report so far and I'd agree with this. RI himself has some serious mental issues I suspect--he even alludes to them himself in some of the materials cited in the report.

 

To me, the saddest parts of the report were the e-mails between JM and his parents. You have to remember that during most of this period he was a 22-23 year old kid, one who happened to be a bit different than the others on the team and line. I agree with the poster above, too, that despite his size, wealth, fame and education, he came across in those as the poor kid getting mercilessly picked on in middle school and not knowing what to do about it....

[TXBILLSFAN]

I've read 2/3rds of the report so far and I'd agree with this. RI himself has some serious mental issues I suspect--he even alludes to them himself in some of the materials cited in the report.

 

To me, the saddest parts of the report were the e-mails between JM and his parents. You have to remember that during most of this period he was a 22-23 year old kid, one who happened to be a bit different than the others on the team and line. I agree with the poster above, too, that despite his size, wealth, fame and education, he came across in those as the poor kid getting mercilessly picked on in middle school and not knowing what to do about it....

Agree on the emails to his parents, I'm a bit surprised they didn't get more involved, to me, JM could have committed suicide and that would have been an avoidable tragedy. I still think it's easier to see JM excelling in the NFL going forward, where RI seems to have worn out his welcome on at least 4 occasions.

[Mr. WEO]

ive said it a few times, but i think RI likely has some actual disorders himself that are simply being chalked up to him being a meathead. talk of his bipolar relationships, the nickname "the tornado," the drug abuse, being kicked off multiple teams, issues on and off the field....

 

two people that dont function well, one aggressive, the other prone to being victimized, trying to get along.... the aggressive one in a leadership role trying to toughen up the weak one... seems like poor planning all around, even if they both generally had good intentions

 

I noted you said that earlier about RI's possible mental illness and focusing solely on the mental illness Martin tells us he has.

Agree on the emails to his parents, I'm a bit surprised they didn't get more involved, to me, JM could have committed suicide and that would have been an avoidable tragedy. I still think it's easier to see JM excelling in the NFL going forward, where RI seems to have worn out his welcome on at least 4 occasions.

 

This is part of what I don't understand. How could they not know he was suicidal? JM tells RI he was suicidal and not his parents? And he tells them in April 2013 that he has been bullied since...middle school? This is news to them? He seems closer (in texts, anyway) to Incognito than he does to his parents. It doesn's all seem plausible.

[GunnerBill]

This is part of what I don't understand. How could they not know he was suicidal? JM tells RI he was suicidal and not his parents? And he tells them in April 2013 that he has been bullied since...middle school? This is news to them? He seems closer (in texts, anyway) to Incognito than he does to his parents. It doesn's all seem plausible.

 

Sadly I find it plausible. It's often the case in case of depression that the sufferer feels less able to confide in the people that they should be closest too. Let me be clear though, that as critical as I've been of Incognito I don't think you can put not grasping the seriousness of Martin's depression at his door.

Edited February 21, 2014 by GunnerBill

[TXBILLSFAN]

I noted you said that earlier about RI's possible mental illness and focusing solely on the mental illness Martin tells us he has.

 

 

This is part of what I don't understand. How could they not know he was suicidal? JM tells RI he was suicidal and not his parents? And he tells them in April 2013 that he has been bullied since...middle school? This is news to them? He seems closer (in texts, anyway) to Incognito than he does to his parents. It doesn's all seem plausible.

Good point on the texts. It might have been JM's way of trying to tell RI to back off. In other words, you are pushing me too hard. It would be interesting to read the texts JM sent to other people besides his parents or RI to see if they were more normal I'd also love to hear what Sherman, Luck and other teammates at Stanford have to say. The Dolphins also knew that he was having issues at one point in process when he missed voluntary off-season workouts. Seems like they dismissed them as not important.

[Homey D. Clown]

I would have voted for Ritchie, and a HELL NO on Martin.

[Mr. WEO]

Good point on the texts. It might have been JM's way of trying to tell RI to back off. In other words, you are pushing me too hard. It would be interesting to read the texts JM sent to other people besides his parents or RI to see if they were more normal I'd also love to hear what Sherman, Luck and other teammates at Stanford have to say. The Dolphins also knew that he was having issues at one point in process when he missed voluntary off-season workouts. Seems like they dismissed them as not important.

Sadly I find it plausible. It's often the case in case of depression that the sufferer feels less able to confide in the people that they should be closest too. Let me be clear though, that as critical as I've been of Incognito I don't think you can put not grasping the seriousness of Martin's depression at his door.

 

I agree about not Icognito's limited ability to recognize the depth of Martin's depression. Either that or RI didn't think JM's "suicide" talk was genuine.

 

Good point on the texts. It might have been JM's way of trying to tell RI to back off. In other words, you are pushing me too hard. It would be interesting to read the texts JM sent to other people besides his parents or RI to see if they were more normal I'd also love to hear what Sherman, Luck and other teammates at Stanford have to say. The Dolphins also knew that he was having issues at one point in process when he missed voluntary off-season workouts. Seems like they dismissed them as not important.

 

How can your parents not be aware that you were supposedly bullied throughout middle and high school? And who would text this stuff to a parent? At what point do you pick up the phone and call your mom or dad? And there response is to text back that maybe he should see a therapist?

 

It's like no one was really serious about any of this until he walked out and the press was alerted. Then it became this thing that it is.

 

And how on earth would a guy with such significant issues with the way others perceive him, racked with self doubt since he was a preteen, be so eager to rejoin the NFL? Forget Incognito and Pouncey, if 7th graders were getting on Martin, what will happen when his potential next group of teammates start dropping comments about his toughness or being a snitch--not to mention what the D linemen lining up every Sunday will be saying to him?

 

Still something off about this whole affair...

[boyst]

 

 

I noted you said that earlier about RI's possible mental illness and focusing solely on the mental illness Martin tells us he has.

 

 

This is part of what I don't understand. How could they not know he was suicidal? JM tells RI he was suicidal and not his parents? And he tells them in April 2013 that he has been bullied since...middle school? This is news to them? He seems closer (in texts, anyway) to Incognito than he does to his parents. It doesn's all seem plausible.

it wouldn't be hard to believe this. I do. His term of bullying being subjective but if he felt inferrior to his parents - both respected professionals - he may have hid things from them, feelings, emotions, more. His parents probably did not see the full picture. I do not have kids. But they say parents only see the good parts in their children often times and by all known accounts there is and was a lot of good to be proud of in Martin.

 

 

[Mr. WEO]

it wouldn't be hard to believe this. I do. His term of bullying being subjective but if he felt inferrior to his parents - both respected professionals - he may have hid things from them, feelings, emotions, more. His parents probably did not see the full picture. I do not have kids. But they say parents only see the good parts in their children often times and by all known accounts there is and was a lot of good to be proud of in Martin.

 

If you have a kid who is bullied in school, you will find out.

 

It still doesn't make sens that the parents counseled him by text. Seems pretty detactched